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Households must pay for water meters.

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Comments

  • Options
    #152
    sunshiner
    Registered Users Posts: 438 ✭✭sunshiner


    any way we can add a poll to see who will pay this


  • Options
    #153
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    If you care about something, fine, but the way you phrase it sounds bitter. Everyone does not have to do what you or your mother does and it does not mean that you or any protester are better then others. It is as invalid an argument as people who presume unemployed won't get off their backsides to get a job.
    Well if your going to come across as mock peoples efforts, I'm going to (rightly I feel) retort and point out, at least some of us are willing to try at least and protest!

    I have NEVER espoused that I (or others) are better than anyone else, we just went, tried to show opposition and reminded (hopefully) others that their actions will not go un-noticed or forgotten about.
    End of story
    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    ...Looking at recent polling numbers and being out and about shows a different story where the vast majority support the government and that life is not as bad as a lot of posters here would like us to believe.
    For myself, I think there is a vast difference in actual numbers between supporting the government in what they are doing - than from those in number that alone acknowledge we are in a deep recession (blame for which is a whole debate itself), accounting for that, accepting some measures while also accepting that sometimes a cut and tax is sometimes too far and more damaging than beneficial to the economy in the short and long run.

    I suspect that the numbers in the recent polls might be on shaky foundation and amalgamate too easily certain numbers just too easily without definition and/or clarification into sub-groups of thought and defined support.
    I'm open to be wrong.


  • Options
    #154
    forfuxsake
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭forfuxsake


    Just to remind everybody that the government doesn't have any money of it's own. If the government back down and pay for the meters it will be with our money anyway.

    I suspect they will insist we pay for meters.
    People will protest.
    Government will 'back down.'
    Relieved people will forget to protest water charges.
    Meter cost will be factored into water bills.

    The government are committed to reducing the deficit. They are going to raise taxes and then cut welfare and PS salaries.


  • Options
    #155
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Biggins wrote: »
    Well if your going to come across as mock peoples efforts, I'm going to (rightly I feel) retort and point out, at least some of us are willing to try at least and protest!

    I have NEVER espoused that I (or others) are better than anyone else, we just went, tried to show opposition and reminded (hopefully) others that their actions will not go un-noticed or forgotten about.
    End of story

    Biggins, you seem like a nice guy but you have posted lots of things in this thread which gave a very smug "I am better then you" attitude. So I am not sure how calling the rest of the population who did not protest, farm animals who jump for their politicians, is a good and mature thing to do? Also when I see people calling other people traitors so quickly and lightly, that also is a bit of a warning, usually you hear that from the far-right groups, in Ireland, we are getting it from the far-left.


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    #156
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

    being out and about shows a different story where the vast majority support the government and that life is not as bad as a lot of posters here would like us to believe.

    Where do you live?


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    #157
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Higher earners who pay the higher rate pay the majority of income tax by far, should they get a larger tax rebate once the burden of paying for water through general taxation is removed?
    ...
    At least meters will let us know specifically who is paying for what, and give us some control over how much we contribute.
    Giving higher earners a larger tax rebate means that they are in effect being subsidised by the middle income group. Look at my previous posts about how the rich spend a third of what the poor spend on VAT , because of tax exemptions like this.

    Yes metering will give control,
    But the issue here is the cost, it's over €500 million disappearing out of the economy. The meters will be imported. It will probably delay water mains repairs, where the jobs could be created anyway.

    The benefits are marginal , 10-15% reduction in water usage, maybe.
    Between 1996 and 2002, leakage was reduced from 42% to 28% primarily through active leakage management programmes. in the Dublin region. That's the same as having 24% more water coming out the far end.


    The costs of metering outweigh the costs of improving the supply.
    There is no economic benefit, especially if we are returning to a system of rates.

    UK water rates , just to give an idea of how it gets ratcheted up
    2005/6 Industry average (weighted) £117 £134
    2012 Water bills are set to rise by an average of 4.6% or £16 to £356 a year in 2011/2012, according to water company regulator Ofwat. (€431 = €1.20 a day)
    The prices we pay for our water supply are regulated by Ofwat. Every 5 years the water companies suggest new prices and these prices are then reviewed by Ofwat who then decide on a price to suit both the water companies and the consumer.

    For example, the last review saw the water companies suggesting a 29% increase but Ofwat decided on an average 18% increase for the next 5 years.




    If this was about water usage (and it's not)
    There are already street meters , a little joined up thinking and you could ask the local residents committee to report leaks or distribute info in high usage areas. Far cheaper and I'd reckon more effective in reducing water usage.


  • Options
    #158
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    mikom wrote: »
    Where do you live?

    Dublin :confused:

    Sorry, but walk around any day or night, it's not comparable to Greece now is it? Do you sense revolution? Nope.


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    #159
    Solair
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    What if you can't afford to install a meter?

    Will they be providing some kind of a loan scheme?

    We can't even find a stopcock to switch off the water at our house, thanks to wonderful 1970s building 'regulations'. So, I have no idea how we will even find the water main in the ground outside!
    There appears to be absolutely no valve installed anywhere other than in the boiler house.

    So, I have absolutely no idea how we are supposed to install a meter, other than perhaps a huge road digging exercise involving disrupting the public pavement.

    It's not my fault that I moved into a house that was built in an era when we'd no regulations. I'm sure there are probably plenty of other homes in urban Ireland that are in similar situations.


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    #160
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    Biggins, you seem like a nice guy but you have posted lots of things in this thread which gave a very smug "I am better then you" attitude. So I am not sure how calling the rest of the population who did not protest, farm animals who jump for their politicians, is a good and mature thing to do?

    Did NOT say "the rest of the population who did not protest, farm animals who jump for their politicians... etc"

    What I ACTUALLY posted was:
    There are many on the streets. 2,000+ yesterday in Galway alone.
    Sadly, the rest of the country won't join them.
    They are too complacent still like good little obeying farm animals, jumping up and coughing up when political masters says so.

    Till Ireland finally kops itself on, gets off its sofa's, its barstools and away from the Pravda style RTE news broadcasts, the status quo will continue.

    I can dress the above previous words in nice polite wording of fancy light political correctness but the time for being polite has passed.
    A good lot in Ireland needs some brunt home truths to be told to them!

    I was inferring that some are willing to be allowed to be treated as such.
    I thought that would come across but obviously my words was poor and for that I apologise without question if there is a lack of clarity.

    I do think that the present lot (as with the previous) are treating the public as supposedly dumb animals.
    They might find out to their cost later, that we are not!

    However, I again apologise for wrong possible choice of previous confusing words.
    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    ...Also when I see people calling other people traitors so quickly and lightly, that also is a bit of a warning, usually you hear that from the far-right groups, in Ireland, we are getting it from the far-left.
    I do not call FG and Labour "traitors" either quickly or indeed lightly.
    I have come to that conclusion after very much deep thought, analysis, knowledge of their founding party people and principles.

    Sometimes even if we hear of something from the far-left (whom we might ideology oppose), that don't sometimes take away from what they are say either.
    Their ideology might be wrong and we can disagree with them (I suspect you and I feel the same way about such parties) but sometimes too, they also hit a 'nail on the head' when they state the case of something that is wrong.


  • Options
    #161
    52red
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭52red


    The way I understand it, we pay for the water meters, not the
    installation.

    So. we pay for, maintain and repair the equipment for the council/
    waterboard, and then we will have to pay a charge for getting OUR
    meters read? Somehow I think there well could be a legal challenge here, especially as, to the best of my knowledge, commercial users did not have to pay for their meters.


    However, if we own the meters, then surely we have a right to
    charge the council/water board for the use of these meters?? They
    need this information, and information costs money, so let's charge them!

    Could be interesting times ahead.


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    #162
    whippet
    Registered Users Posts: 7,668 ✭✭✭whippet


    @forfuxsake

    11 pages of a thread and I reckon your post is the first to acknowledge why this tax is being introduced.

    All the ranting in the world will not change the fact that we have a 12bn deficit in our national budget (this deficit has shag all to do with bailing out banks etc) .....

    Money will have to come from somewhere and that means either taxpaying citizens. The way our tax nets are if we try to raise the revenue from income taxes (or even this mythical magical 'wealth' tax that the lefties are banging on about) it just means that the working middle classes will pay more and those who are outside of the tax net pay little or nothing again.

    As no government has the balls really to bring more people directly in to the tax net, via PAYE or even taxing social welfare etc .. the only way to have everyone contribute is via taxes like water and the household charge.

    While I despise having to payout more and more of my hard earned money in taxes, it galls me more that there are those who are contributing little or nothing while still drawing a significant chunk of money from the social welfare system.

    Before people come jumping down my throat, answer me this .... if the government don't try and raise revenues from all members of society where can they raise the money from? If you don't think they should raise any more revenue (via taxes) can you list where you reckon they could cut 12bn from the budget?

    The left's mantra of 'create jobs', 'fuel growth' rather than cut spending is nonsense as there is little prospect of any real growth in the next few years due to the international economic situation - something out of the hands of this government.

    Austerity is sh1t, so is paying more in tax while receiving less in services, but we can't maintain the level of spending we did in the last decade as we were spending money that wasn't real ..just magical snake oil coming from the 'property boom/bubble'


  • Options
    #163
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »
    Dublin :confused:

    Sorry, but walk around any day or night, it's not comparable to Greece now is it? Do you sense revolution? Nope.

    Come west along the road and smell the pepper spray.
    The people are not happy with the government.


  • Options
    #164
    Phill Ewinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭Phill Ewinn


    whippet wrote: »
    @forfuxsake

    11 pages of a thread and I reckon your post is the first to acknowledge why this tax is being introduced.

    All the ranting in the world will not change the fact that we have a 12bn deficit in our national budget (this deficit has shag all to do with bailing out banks etc) .....

    Money will have to come from somewhere and that means either taxpaying citizens. The way our tax nets are if we try to raise the revenue from income taxes (or even this mythical magical 'wealth' tax that the lefties are banging on about) it just means that the working middle classes will pay more and those who are outside of the tax net pay little or nothing again.

    As no government has the balls really to bring more people directly in to the tax net, via PAYE or even taxing social welfare etc .. the only way to have everyone contribute is via taxes like water and the household charge.

    While I despise having to payout more and more of my hard earned money in taxes, it galls me more that there are those who are contributing little or nothing while still drawing a significant chunk of money from the social welfare system.

    Before people come jumping down my throat, answer me this .... if the government don't try and raise revenues from all members of society where can they raise the money from? If you don't think they should raise any more revenue (via taxes) can you list where you reckon they could cut 12bn from the budget?

    The left's mantra of 'create jobs', 'fuel growth' rather than cut spending is nonsense as there is little prospect of any real growth in the next few years due to the international economic situation - something out of the hands of this government.

    Austerity is sh1t, so is paying more in tax while receiving less in services, but we can't maintain the level of spending we did in the last decade as we were spending money that wasn't real ..just magical snake oil coming from the 'property boom/bubble'

    Public service pay and pensions cost €19bn per anum. Simple reforms and productivity structures could save many, many billions.


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    #165
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    forfuxsake wrote: »
    Just to remind everybody that the government doesn't have any money of it's own.

    True, its ours.
    ...and they are bleeding us dry of every cent.
    forfuxsake wrote: »
    If the government back down and pay for the meters it will be with our money anyway.
    So why then force us to pay for the 'honour' of having to pay a further bill, for having to pay a later bill!
    ..And not only to be get the meter but forever more for this small device on every home, we will continue to pay for it till we die!
    For a meter? Seriously!
    forfuxsake wrote: »
    I suspect they will insist we pay for meters.
    People will protest.
    Government will 'back down.'
    I will believe the last part when I see it!
    I live in hope - if not in prosperity!
    forfuxsake wrote: »
    ...The government are committed to reducing the deficit. They are going to raise taxes and then cut welfare and PS salaries.
    ...And by the way they are going, by taking every cent out of everyones pockets, there will be bugger all left to spend beyond the very basics - and some are seriously finding it tough even to purchase that basic items already!
    Thats already having a knock-on effect on our present economy!


  • Options
    #166
    washman3
    Registered Users Posts: 3,646 ✭✭✭washman3


    Icepick wrote: »
    Water is a product similar to electricity and gas and should have been charged directly a long time ago.

    :confused::confused::confused: Ya, we get approx 60" falling from the sky every year in Ireland
    very expensive product indeed.;)
    sounds like you've swallowed the entire jar of pills.:mad:


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    #167
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,400 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Giving higher earners a larger tax rebate means that they are in effect being subsidised by the middle income group. Look at my previous posts about how the rich spend a third of what the poor spend on VAT , because of tax exemptions like this.

    Yes metering will give control,
    But the issue here is the cost, it's over €500 million disappearing out of the economy. The meters will be imported. It will probably delay water mains repairs, where the jobs could be created anyway.
    Just responding to those who're saying we're already paying for it.


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    #168
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,140 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    I fully support a water charge. Almost every other country in the EU has one, and with good reason, clean drinking water costs a lot to provide and we get it for nothing (its not covered by the household charge). It will lead to less waste also, because if people are paying for it they will use it sparingly.

    However, having to pay at least €300 to have meters installed and then having to pay a rental for the meter is an absolute joke! I think the poster above is right, the government is saying this now but when the time comes around they will back down on the installation charge and as a result the water charges alone will seem much more acceptable to the general public. Fianna Fail should have introduced a water charge and a property tax years ago. Useless c*nts.


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    #169
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Lets think about this in actual real terms.

    They (the government) is going to come to our door in turn, inform us that they are enforcing a meter system upon us.

    They will install it (if we like it or not).
    They will charge us for their then later ability, to charge us.

    They on top of this for every meter, will make us pay a 'rent' for the said meter for ever more!
    (How much is this actual meter to make and buy - when is the cost of it going to be paid off?)
    (Why can't I get my own meter and give it to them to install? Meter 'rental' paid off!)

    We will then be charged for water use (fair enough).

    ALL the above will come again with extra government added VAT (a secondary tax/charge) on top of the previous charges!

    In other words, pay up, pay up for having to pay up and after that, pay up the VAT on all that too!

    Happy Christmas and best wishes from Fine Gael and The Labour Party!
    Vote for us again soon!


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    #170
    mongoman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 669 ✭✭✭mongoman


    A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »
    So what services is this household charge covering?

    Nothing.


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    #171
    MadYaker
    Registered Users Posts: 12,140 ✭✭✭✭MadYaker


    washman3 wrote: »
    :confused::confused::confused: Ya, we get approx 60" falling from the sky every year in Ireland
    very expensive product indeed.;)
    sounds like you've swallowed the entire jar of pills.:mad:


    Its amazing how some people can be so clueless. So according to you there is absolutely no difference between what falls from the clouds and what comes out of your tap? Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

    Mongoman, it has been said numerous times already. The household charge goes directly into the budget of your local council for services like street cleaning, parks, playgrounds, libraries and anything else funded by the county/city councils.


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    #172
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    We do not get it for nothing. If you pay taxes you pay for water. And clean drinking water? Your having a laugh.

    MadYaker wrote: »
    I fully support a water charge. Almost every other country in the EU has one, and with good reason, clean drinking water costs a lot to provide and we get it for nothing (its not covered by the household charge). It will lead to less waste also, because if people are paying for it they will use it sparingly.

    However, having to pay at least €300 to have meters installed and then having to pay a rental for the meter is an absolute joke! I think the poster above is right, the government is saying this now but when the time comes around they will back down on the installation charge and as a result the water charges alone will seem much more acceptable to the general public. Fianna Fail should have introduced a water charge and a property tax years ago. Useless c*nts.


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    #173
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The perfect solution to the water tax! :D
    Unless your friend is a connoisseur of bawdy lawn ornaments, there are probably better gifts out there than the Water Butt Butt (the British call rain barrels "water butts") by Hemingway Design. Anyway, is a rain barrel really a good gift

    Read more: http://www.thedailygreen.com/living-green/extreme-green/water-butt-rain-barrel-gift#ixzz1s8UoubnO


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    #174
    Azure_sky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,131 ✭✭✭Azure_sky


    Many people died so that the Irish people could govern themselves and avoid another Great Famine due to a Saxon government who didn't care about the Irish people. Now we are governed by another Saxon force (Germany), and are suffering again.

    Vote for Sinn Fein and leave the E.U.


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    #175
    forfuxsake
    Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭forfuxsake


    Biggins wrote: »
    True, its ours.
    ...and they are bleeding us dry of every cent.


    So why then force us to pay for the 'honour' of having to pay a further bill, for having to pay a later bill!
    ..And not only to be get the meter but forever more for this small device on every home, we will continue to pay for it till we die!
    For a meter? Seriously!


    I will believe the last part when I see it!
    I live in hope - if not in prosperity!


    ...And by the way they are going, by taking every cent out of everyones pockets, there will be bugger all left to spend beyond the very basics - and some are seriously finding it tough even to purchase that basic items already!
    Thats already having a knock-on effect on our present economy!

    I never said I agreed with it. The point is that the water meters are going to be introduced. We are going to pay for them. Either directly through a charge for the meter or indirectly through further taxation. The government has no money which is not ours.

    it's a bit like saying 'I'm not going to let you rape me so I am going to consent to sexual intercourse with you'

    Either way we're getting fcuked.


  • Options
    #176
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The perfect solution to the water tax! :D

    Isn't that where we are being shafted already? :(


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    #177
    The Waltzing Consumer
    Registered Users Posts: 1,949 ✭✭✭The Waltzing Consumer


    Azure_sky wrote: »
    Many people died so that the Irish people could govern themselves and avoid another Great Famine due to a Saxon government who didn't care about the Irish people. Now we are governed by another Saxon force (Germany), and are suffering again.

    Vote for Sinn Fein and leave the E.U.

    You should print that on a poster and deliver one to every house in Ireland.

    Now, where will we find enough ink to print that many posters?


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    #178
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,400 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Slightly off topic, but does anyone know the specs they're looking for in the meters? Are we looking at bog standard like the current leccy and gas, or is smart metering an option? The mass rollout of meters would be a fantastic opportunity to test this type of system and get it right. It would also save money in the future as it would allow minimal costs for getting usage data and locating leaks.


  • Options
    #179
    Joko
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Joko


    washman3 wrote: »
    Ya, we get approx 60" falling from the sky every year in Ireland
    very expensive product indeed.;)
    sounds like you've swallowed the entire jar of pills.:mad:

    It costs a fortune to source, treat, pump, pipe and dispose of drinking water.


  • Options
    #180
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Biggins wrote: »
    Isn't that where we are being shafted already? :(

    Just have it on display the next time a politician arrives and offer them a drink from it!
    Butt water. :p


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    #181
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    Azure_sky wrote: »
    Many people died so that the Irish people could govern themselves and avoid another Great Famine due to a Saxon government who didn't care about the Irish people. Now we are governed by another Saxon force (Germany), and are suffering again.

    Vote for Sinn Fein and leave the E.U.
    I would sooner burn my house down than vote for SF the murdering lying basta&s!


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