DART+ (DART Expansion)

NuMarvel · 04-07-2017 10:32am

Zebra3 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-plans-move-to-electrichybrid-fleet-35892464.html

IE saying their preference is DART to Maynooth first, before Balbriggan.

That would also encourage more use of Boombridge as an interchange with the LUAS Green line.

Some in the LUAS Cross City thread believe that the current train services through Boombridge are too infrequent and unreliable for it to be an effective interchange. I don't use the service enough to comment, but I can see their logic, and a DART service could only improve things in that regard.

BonnieSituation · 04-07-2017 10:47am

They're not as infrequent as they are being made out. It would make a perfectly reasonable interchange for some passengers and as soon as LCC is in action people may see the benefits of changing at Broombridge.

murphaph · 04-07-2017 11:08am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The problem I imagine is that a line towards Maynooth would be too successful. The junctions and platforms near the city centre would quickly become congested and services on other lines would have to be curtailed.

There is little enough point in doing these projects until there is somewhere for these trains to go when they reach the city, i.e. A grade separated junction leading to an east-west tunnel.

If we're really going to mop up a good deal of Brexit banks it's reasonable to assume that many will set up in the Docklands. Given that, it's probably fine to send any extra trains from Maynooth and Pace to Docklands Station. Obviously that's a third rate solution to the tunnel but it gets bodies in to where people need to work and those working there will presumably opt for those trains and relieve those heading to Connolly.

Personally I think we need to eliminate the conflicts in the network as much as possible by forcing changes at Howth Junction and Connolly (terminate all Maynooth line trains at P7 and increase capacity on coastal DART route to allow changes). A terminating Maynooth DART can be in and out of P7 in 3 minutes...happens hundreds of times a day on any given U-Bahn in Berlin and many other cities around the world and Maynooth DART won't come close to that.

If integrated fares are delivered as promised then there will be no penalty for changing on to Luas at Broombridge or Connolly, further relieving the coastal DART route. If BusConnects is delivered properly then we could also expect significant interchange at Drumcondra Station.

MJohnston · 04-07-2017 11:20am

The areas where office space is being developed the most at the minute would suggest Docklands station will become far more important than Connolly currently is anyway.

LeinsterDub · 04-07-2017 11:41am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The problem I imagine is that a line towards Maynooth would be too successful. The junctions and platforms near the city centre would quickly become congested and services on other lines would have to be curtailed.

How many people use these alternate services?

thomasj · 04-07-2017 12:07pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They're not as infrequent as they are being made out. It would make a perfectly reasonable interchange for some passengers and as soon as LCC is in action people may see the benefits of changing at Broombridge.

They are as infrequent.

Apart from peak hours on weekdays, they're hourly and while it may not be a major issue getting straight off a train and onto a luas, what about the other way, if you are to get off the luas to find you've just missed your train and the next one is not due for 55 minutes?

LXFlyer · 04-07-2017 12:07pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They're not as infrequent as they are being made out. It would make a perfectly reasonable interchange for some passengers and as soon as LCC is in action people may see the benefits of changing at Broombridge.

Off-peak they certainly are infrequent.

It's currently hourly, but one would hope they would rise to half-hourly at the next timetable change.

That's not a "turn up & go" frequency by any means.

Heading outbound, if you're travelling to stations beyond Clonsilla you're more likely to need a specific train, and especially so if going to stations on the M3 branch or beyond Maynooth - that's not going to be easy to judge in terms of when to catch a tram, given half of them will turn back south at Parnell.

NuMarvel · 04-07-2017 2:29pm

murphaph wrote: »

If we're really going to mop up a good deal of Brexit banks it's reasonable to assume that many will set up in the Docklands. Given that, it's probably fine to send any extra trains from Maynooth and Pace to Docklands Station. Obviously that's a third rate solution to the tunnel but it gets bodies in to where people need to work and those working there will presumably opt for those trains and relieve those heading to Connolly.

Personally I think we need to eliminate the conflicts in the network as much as possible by forcing changes at Howth Junction and Connolly (terminate all Maynooth line trains at P7 and increase capacity on coastal DART route to allow changes). A terminating Maynooth DART can be in and out of P7 in 3 minutes...happens hundreds of times a day on any given U-Bahn in Berlin and many other cities around the world and Maynooth DART won't come close to that.

If integrated fares are delivered as promised then there will be no penalty for changing on to Luas at Broombridge or Connolly, further relieving the coastal DART route. If BusConnects is delivered properly then we could also expect significant interchange at Drumcondra Station.

I like Connolly as an option, because it links up with other services. Going to the Docklands would be like the DART equivalent of the LUAS where there's no connection between the lines.

Would it be a feasible option to run the Maynooth DART into Connolly with a peak time diesel shuttle between Boombridge and Docklands to serve workers in the area?

Sam Russell · 04-07-2017 7:51pm

Docklands is only 200 m from the Red Luas line (but 350 m to the nearest stop).

KCAccidental · 05-07-2017 12:54am

Sam Russell wrote: »

Docklands is only 200 m from the Red Luas line (but 350 m to the nearest stop).

could retrofit a stop or move NCI stop to Guild Street, but would probably be overkill.

LeinsterDub · 05-07-2017 8:06am

KCAccidental wrote: »

could retrofit a stop or move NCI stop to Guild Street, but would probably be overkill.

It's a 3 or 4 minute walk. It's grand

GerardKeating · 05-07-2017 5:03pm

NuMarvel wrote: »

I like Connolly as an option, because it links up with other services. Going to the Docklands would be like the DART equivalent of the LUAS where there's no connection between the lines.

Would it be a feasible option to run the Maynooth DART into Connolly with a peak time diesel shuttle between Boombridge and Docklands to serve workers in the area?

Or (for the extra few km or track) electrify both lines and have DART into Connolly and Docklands perhaps.

Sam Russell · 05-07-2017 5:49pm

GerardKeating wrote: »

Or (for the extra few km or track) electrify both lines and have DART into Connolly and Docklands perhaps.

Surely going into Docklands during peak and Connolly off-peak would reduce pressure on Connolly - even if it was only 50% of the trains.

murphaph · 05-07-2017 9:42pm

I mentioned above that I think they should eliminate the conflicting movements around Connolly by terminating ALL Maynooth services at P7 and reversing back out in time for the next terminating service (realistically will not be more than every 10 mins and that's optimistic) BUT there is nothing to say they couldn't run the DART Maynooth<->Bray and terminate all Northern Line DARTs at Connolly P3/4/5, reserving P6/7 for the through trains. It would have the slight advantage of pairing 2 similar lines together (Maynooth/Sligo and Bray/Rosslare) as is envisaged after DU anyway. If this was done it might make it easier to retain through services to Howth as you wouldn't be "relying" on those services to take transferring Maynooth Line passengers on to the south city.

The reality is the Maynooth Line offers far better growth prospects than the Northern Line as it has no coastal catchment area detracting from passenger numbers.

To be honest though either way would be ok but the current set up is the An Lar mentality that still pervades IE and DB. Perhaps BusConnects will show that changing mode/vehicle is nothing to be scared of!

Sam Russell · 05-07-2017 10:19pm

murphaph wrote: »

To be honest though either way would be ok but the current set up is the An Lar mentality that still pervades IE and DB. Perhaps BusConnects will show that changing mode/vehicle is nothing to be scared of!

The key to the whole issue is ticketing. Transferring from one mode to another should not incur a cost penalty. I like the idea of only Leap cards being acceptable (cashless) with a 90 min validity within the short hop zone. Perhaps that might be a bit drastic on the fare box, but it could be a target, with a zone approach in the medium term.

lucernarian · 06-07-2017 7:54am

murphaph wrote: »

I mentioned above that I think they should eliminate the conflicting movements around Connolly by terminating ALL Maynooth services at P7 and reversing back out in time for the next terminating service (realistically will not be more than every 10 mins and that's optimistic) BUT there is nothing to say they couldn't run the DART Maynooth<->Bray and terminate all Northern Line DARTs at Connolly P3/4/5, reserving P6/7 for the through trains. It would have the slight advantage of pairing 2 similar lines together (Maynooth/Sligo and Bray/Rosslare) as is envisaged after DU anyway. If this was done it might make it easier to retain through services to Howth as you wouldn't be "relying" on those services to take transferring Maynooth Line passengers on to the south city.

The reality is the Maynooth Line offers far better growth prospects than the Northern Line as it has no coastal catchment area detracting from passenger numbers.

To be honest though either way would be ok but the current set up is the An Lar mentality that still pervades IE and DB. Perhaps BusConnects will show that changing mode/vehicle is nothing to be scared of!

There isn't much in there for commuters changing at Connolly to go on a *northbound* dart. That's almost exclusively to Clontarf Road and when more buildings are refurbished by the likes of Oracle there, that will add further to the number of commuters going north. A lot of people change onto southbound DARTs but it's not the only destination. Quite regularly the difference between making a dart and waiting 15 minutes, is pulling in at platform 6 rather than platform 5

murphaph · 06-07-2017 6:53pm

lucernarian wrote: »

There isn't much in there for commuters changing at Connolly to go on a *northbound* dart. That's almost exclusively to Clontarf Road and when more buildings are refurbished by the likes of Oracle there, that will add further to the number of commuters going north. A lot of people change onto southbound DARTs but it's not the only destination. Quite regularly the difference between making a dart and waiting 15 minutes, is pulling in at platform 6 rather than platform 5

Yeah I understand that forcing a change disadvantages some. But removing conflicts means a more robust network that should allow reliable time tabling of connections.

Zebra3 · 06-07-2017 7:58pm

Why not electrify the Maynooth line and until DU is built alternate between the Maynooth and northern lines on their trains terminating in Connolly (or Maynooth trains going to Docklands) and continuing to Bray/Greystones.

murphaph · 06-07-2017 8:53pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why not electrify the Maynooth line and until DU is built alternate between the Maynooth and northern lines on their trains terminating in Connolly (or Maynooth trains going to Docklands) and continuing to Bray/Greystones.

I like it but I'm not sure I'd credit IE with the ability to not get into serious trouble should a train fail.

MJohnston · 06-07-2017 9:19pm

Even with all Maynooth line DARTs terminating at Connolly, it'd still be a huge improvement from the current situation. I think it's pretty clear DU isn't happening in the next couple of decades, so its time for the various entities to stop waiting on it and start planning infrastructure that can work without it.

strassenwo!f · 08-07-2017 1:19am

One of the concerns mentioned about the DART Underground project on its Wikipedia page is that it fails to provide fairly direct access to residents of the East Wall area, even though these are people living very near the proposed line, and will be among the most disrupted if its construction happens.

I'm not sure I buy much of that, as the original plan wouldn't have involved much tunnelling under the area. It might have involved insertion of a tunnel boring machine and tunnelling in the direction away from East Wall. Not much tunnelling under East Wall at all.

Nevertheless, East Wall is an area with plenty of people, and thus plenty of potential passengers.

We don't know what the review of this project will bring, but in the event that the DART Underground project emerges at Spencer Dock, or somewhere close by, and then connects with the Northern Line north of Connolly, one possibility - when it finally meets the Northern line - might be the creation of a station directly above East Wall Road and the river, with access from East Wall and, if necessary, from the other side of the Tolka. Something like the Charlemont Station on the LUAS, perhaps, with the station on or very near the bridge.

This could be a solution which would allow relatively good access for many of the large numbers of residents in the East Wall area to the proposed project, at the bridge.

It would certainly require replacement of the bridge, and associated works either side, but the costs would surely be small in the context of the overall project.

The second step to make this 'bridge' plan even more effective would be to remove the Clontarf Road station, entirely. It doesn't have much integration with buses from around the area: Many buses stopping there? Any houses in the vicinity? (At present, there is the bus 32X (around 2 buses in each direction per day) and the 130 (a bus about every 10-15 minutes)).

Without any very immediate residential areas, or large numbers of buses passing by, Clontarf Road's main selling point - at the time of its construction -
was that it was halfway between Connolly and Killester, on the DART's original 6-minute gap between those two stations, and that it was close to the emerging East Point Business Park.

You wouldn't remove it immediately, of course, but it might, and maybe would, eventually go as part of the DART Underground plan.

The Clontarf Road station was also created because it was able to be be created easily. Not because it was the best place, or because it had the best integration with other public transport. It is currently a key point for company buses linking it with the East Point Business Park, but this function could be moved to a new East Wall station at or near the Tolka Bridge, as suggested above.

I think, if the DART Underground project is to deal with its issues in the Fairwiew/East Wall/Clontarf Road area of town, as part of the DART Underground project, then it should look at scrapping the Clontarf Road Station entirely and aim to relocate that station to somewhere nearer to a halfway point between Killester and the station I am suggesting at East Wall.

Perhaps somewhere around the junction of the real Howth Road and the Railway line. Unlike the original Clontarf Road station, there would be many people living in the area, and many more buses passing by. You might have to take a very small junk out of Mount Temple School, but I hope not.

We'll have to see how it pans out, but that scenario would create a nice distance between the Docklands station, an East Wall station, A 'Clontarf' station somewhere around the Howth Road/Railway Junction and the existing Killester station on the current line.

It would obviously cost extra money, I'm sure, somewhere, but wouldn't that be an alignment that would keep many more people happy?

CatInABox · 08-07-2017 10:11am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

One of the concerns mentioned about the DART Underground project on its Wikipedia page is that it fails to provide fairly direct access to residents of the East Wall area, even though these are people living very near the proposed line, and will be among the most disrupted if its construction happens.

We don't know what the review of this project will bring.

In the event that the DART Underground project emerges at Spencer Dock and then connects with the Northern Line north of Connolly, one possibility - when it finally meets the Northern line - might be the creation of a station directly above East Wall Road and the river, with access from East Wall and, if necessary, from the other side of the Tolka. Something like the Charlemont Station on the LUAS, perhaps, with the station over the bridge.

This could be a solution which would allow relatively good access for large numbers of residents in the East Wall area to the proposed station at the bridge.

EDIT:

A second step to make this project even more effective might be to remove the Clontarf Road station, entirely It doesn't have much integration with buses from around the area: Many buses stopping there? Any houses in the vicinity?

You wouldn't remove it immediately, of course, but it might, and maybe would, eventually go as part of the DART Underground plan.

Clontarf Road was also created because it was able to be be created easily. Not because it was the best place, or because it had the best integration with other public transport.

It had no neighbouring residential areas, nor did it have a large number of buses passing by.

Its only selling point was that it was halfway between Connolly and Killester.

Very poor public transport integration, and surrounded by sports fields on all sides.

I think, if the DART Underground project is to deal with its issues in the Fairwiew/East Wall/Clontarf Road area of town, as part of the DART Underground project, then it should look at the necessecity of scrapping the Clontarf Station entirely and aim to relocate that Clontarf station to somewhere nearer to a halfway point between Killester and the station I am suggesting at East Wall.

Perhaps somewhere around the junction of the real Howth Road and the Railway line.

Unlike the original Clontarf Road station, there would be real people living in the area, and real buses passing through. You might have to take a very small junk out of Mount Temple School, but I hope not.

We'll have to see how it pans out, but that scenario would create a nice distance between the Docklands station, an East Wall station, A 'Clontarf' station somewhere north of the Howth Road/Railway Junction and the existing Killester station on the current line.

It would obviously cost extra money, I'm sure, somewhere, but wouldn't that be an alignment that would keep most people happy?

There's a fair bit that's wrong there, in my opinion. East Wall residents would be well served by the Docklands station, Connolly station, or even Clontarf Rd station. Some may have to walk, but that's the same for every station, everywhere. They can't all be on everyone's doorstep at the same time.

Clontarf Rd is also well connected. In fact, it's probably more well connected than any hypothetical station further north or south. Where it currently is, allows it to service all busses using Malahide Road, Howth Rd, and Clontarf Rd.

There's also large neighbouring residential areas to the north of Clontarf Rd Station, and all down Clontarf Rd as well, so I'm unsure of how you see it as not serving a large population. Real people live in Marino and Clontarf, both of which would use Clontarf Rd Station. Real people work in East Point, served by Clontarf Rd Station.

In fact, the only downside to it is that it's at the edge of a park, but then your proposed station is at the edge of that very same park, so that would have the same problems.

EDIT: It's served by far more than two stops. The Marino college stop is less than five minutes walk away, and has these busses stopping there: 14, 15, 27, 27a, 27b, 27x, 29a, 31, 31a, 31b, 32, 42, 43, 130

MJohnston · 08-07-2017 10:20am

Close Clontarf Road station? My goodness, I've definitely heard it all now. Why on earth would you close that? East Wall has fantastic access to 3 train stations (though I'd suggest that most people living there are working somewhere within walking distance, with little need to take the train anywhere).

You could make some argument about additional pedestrian bridges from the East wall area across to North Wall, but closing Clontarf Road to create a new train station for East Wall is madness.

strassenwo!f · 08-07-2017 11:18am

MJohnston and CatInaBox, I'm afraid I was editing last night's post while you were posting yours.

My apologies.

MJohnston · 08-07-2017 11:55am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

MJohnston and CatInaBox, I'm afraid I was editing last night's post while you were posting yours.

My apologies.

I think it's fair to say that any edits made 11 hours after you posted it are simply you changing your mind. My response to your original post still stands.

lucernarian · 08-07-2017 11:57am

Opening an actual station where Clontarf train station, along with opening a station in the immediate vicinity of the Tolka, would be ideal in my opinion. I'm not sure it would be the best use of money though.

With Connolly having no northwards access, I really don't think East Wall has good access to the train line that matters the most.

strassenwo!f · 08-07-2017 12:25pm

[QUOTE=CatInABox

EDIT: It's served by far more than two stops. The Marino college stop is less than five minutes walk away, and has these busses stopping there: 14, 15, 27, 27a, 27b, 27x, 29a, 31, 31a, 31b, 32, 42, 43, 130

Please forgive me. I grew up in Western Europe. I understood that 'integration' meant that the bus stopped right outside.

I did not realise that there was a 5-minute walk involved.

strassenwo!f · 08-07-2017 1:04pm

MJohnston wrote: »

I think it's fair to say that any edits made 11 hours after you posted it are simply you changing your mind. My response to your original post still stands.

There were no responses in the 11-12 hours after I posted it, and I took the opportunity to correct a few errors and tidy things up. Of course your original post still stands, but I haven't changed my mind since I posted last night.

The main thrust of my post is something I've wanted to post for a while, perhaps even several years now.

murphaph · 08-07-2017 1:09pm

East Wall is in the city. Living in a city entails disruption now and again. When we were living in Berlin they started extending the motorway near us. Dusty business. Just had to put up with it.

strassenwo!f · 08-07-2017 1:36pm

And can you tell us of a residential area so closely located to the centre of Berlin which has such poor transport links to the rest of the city, as East Wall has, in Dublin?

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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