New Luas lines or extensions after BXD

monument · 05-04-2014 4:10pm #1

As Luas BXD or cross city is underway, what new Luas routes would like to see? In Dublin or elsewhere in Ireland?

While I defended BRT in recent threads, I also said my preference is Luas.

While as much segregation as possible is preferable with rail or at least more effective, there is a place for modern surface trams. Although I'm sure some people responding will (a) want to talk down the or one of the most successful sections of railway aka the red line in the city centre, or (b) try to claim Dublin is completely different to the many EU cities with surface trams.

markpb · 05-04-2014 4:50pm

I'd prefer to see Luas than BRT to the airport although I'm torn about the route - Drumcondra seems like the obvious choice but DCU would be a great trip generator and also has the advantage of introducing people to good public transport when they move to Dublin. Serving both by on-street rail would make the trip too slow though.

After that, I'd love to see the Sligo and Maynooth trains rerouted into Heuston (in preparation for DU) and their current rail line converted to tram operation. I genuinely believe the people of Ashtown, PPR and Cabra are poorly served by the current suburban service. A more frequent but lower capacity tram service would have the same total capacity but give a much better service. Those people live the same distance from town as Milltown or Sandyford but can only dream of a tram every five minutes, at 12:30 on weeknights or 11:30 on Sunday nights.

Strumms · 05-04-2014 4:54pm

The Northside is completely under served by any rail / Luas. Unless you happen to live right on the Dart line.

Unfortunately the people who we vote in, under whatever moniker couldn't get their fingers out of their asses and deliver a comprehensive metro for Dublin at a time when we had the resources. Maybe not quite enough in the pot to look after their developer and building trade mates with bungs and such at that time and the will and leadership wasn't there to make it happen. That would be the solution. The Luas is fine for the city and it's immediate suburbs.

Either way we need a link to the airport that serves the north side that in time could develop into spurs to connect with intercity services etc. we will see the Luas developed and expended before that however as it's a cheaper option although will still go always to skirt around the problem of transport and link thereof on the Northside.

devnull · 05-04-2014 5:08pm

The first part of DUblin that needs transport sorting out is the North of the city and especially the North West, it has been starved of any proper mass transport infrastructure for a long time and doesn't have anywhere near the choices and options that the south side has.

If the airport dart/metro from the city centre is going to go ahead it needs to also open up other opportunities to parts of the city that are not served for me. Just duplicating the service that is currently there by Aircoach and Airlink to serve people on the south of the city is ridiculous and a complete waste of money, when there are other areas of the city which are in far more need of infrastructure.

It's far more important to sort out the derth of transport infrastructure in the North of the city than these issues, since there people really have no choice but to use bus. Pretty much everyone on the North of the city has to used taxis to get to the airport, or take a detour to the city centre. It's ridiculous but is the way it is and for people on the south to complain that they want a direct airport link when they already have far better transport than the rest of the city is crazy.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't eventually build the link to the airport, but for me there are other areas of the city that are in dire need of investment, the southside has had way more of it's share of investment over the years, it's time for the North to get it's share and if the southsiders are complaining about that, then they don't know how lucky they are.

Jamie2k9 · 05-04-2014 5:10pm

Airport needs a high speed rail link and a metro is the only way for it, it can't be over ground as it just won't be quick enough. However personally Metro North plans would be scrapped and looked at again.

As for outside of Dublin, I'm sure Cork and Galway would do well with a Luas system on a smaller scale. Possible similar to the scale in Edinburgh however without the shambles it has become which has taken around 8 years to build and a trams has yet to run.

devnull · 05-04-2014 5:21pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Airport needs a high speed rail link and a metro is the only way for it, it can't be over ground as it just won't be quick enough. However personally Metro North plans would be scrapped and looked at again..

I agree that ideally there should be such a link, but there are other areas of the city which are needing proper mass transport links more and they should be given priority. I hear all the time the argument that the access to the airport from the city centre is poor, but from the north west and north central it's basically non existent, either a taxi or a diversion into the city centre and back up to the airport.

Metro North and Metro West for me are both badly needed more than any airport link since they bring mass public transport to areas which are chronically undeserved and are heavily reliant on an average at best bus service, almost exclusively involving travel to the city centre, and taxis if one would like to use the airport without long journeys.

Meanwhile on the southside there is a much better rail service, two luas lines serving large parts of it, and the best bus services in the city, express buses to the airport and the Port Tunnel as well. But lets remember they have it so bad.

L1011 · 05-04-2014 10:38pm

I consider Line F to be important as it starts to give us an actual network of lines within the city; after it splits off at Fatima again. There's a definite need to look at having more lines in this vein if we want people to actually change transport mode. Dublin Bus simply is not an attractive option for any distance of travel.

strassenwo!f · 05-04-2014 10:40pm

You'd certainly like to see the connection between Broadstone and the Royal Canal used to its fullest extent, eventually.

If it's only used for the BXD line, then there are rate-limiting factors elsewhere in the city which would prevent that unhindered corridor being used fully.

I obviously don't know how this could best be done. But it certainly is quite different to the Green Line, where there are plenty of pedestrian crossing points along the route which limit throughput. The Broadstone - Canal section doesn't have these, so should be ideal for high frequency tram services.

strassenwo!f · 05-04-2014 11:00pm

For example: instead of continuing the BXD north from Brombridge just to Finglas, continue it (i) to Finglas and, separately, (ii) to some other northside location, maybe even the airport. At the southern end of this corridor, have a line peel off before Broadstone, across the road (near St. Brendan's) through the Grangegorman Campus. Then into a short tunnel under the Stoneybatter bottleneck onto nice, wide Blackhall Place and down to the red line Luas where it could then either go to Heuston or the Point, or maybe even across the river toward the proposed Lucan LUAS.

The Broadstone - Canal link is capable of much more than LUAS BXD is.

Victor · 06-04-2014 12:27pm

Broombridge to Finglas / Charlestown and possibly on to the airport.

Tthe Point to either (or both) the south docks / Ringsend and East Point / Clontarf Road.

F1 (Fatima-College Green) would be useful in improving the service speed into the city centre.

Parnell Street to Ballybough.

SSG to Lansdowne Road DART.

Banjoxed · 06-04-2014 1:45pm

In no particular order:

Bride's Glen to Bray - because Sandyford and Dundrum traffic works both northbound and southbound. And it's a final whizz on Tod Andrew's grave.

Line F to Lucan.

I'll echo Victor's suggestion about extending BXD through Finglas and out to the airport, if Metro North and West are brown bread.

end of the road · 06-04-2014 3:45pm

markpb wrote: »

After that, I'd love to see the Sligo and Maynooth trains rerouted into Heuston (in preparation for DU) and their current rail line converted to tram operation.

how would you do it though? that would surely mean the construction of a new line from maynooth to somewhere to link into heuston wouldn't it not? also sligo passengers mightn't want to be re-routed into heuston

markpb wrote: »

I genuinely believe the people of Ashtown, PPR and Cabra are poorly served by the current suburban service. A more frequent but lower capacity tram service would have the same total capacity but give a much better service. Those people live the same distance from town as Milltown or Sandyford but can only dream of a tram every five minutes, at 12:30 on weeknights or 11:30 on Sunday nights.

i agree that may be the case but wouldn't it cause more headaches then it would solve in relation to the heavy rail system currently using the line/route?

Muahahaha · 06-04-2014 8:38pm

As a resident of Charlestown Finglas I'd love to see the BXD be continued on to Fi glas and then the airport and then Swords. The Drumcondra route is already well served by Aircoach and Dublin Bus whereas here in Finglas a five mile journey to the airport/Swords takes over an hour as you have to get a bus into town and then another out of town, you have to spend around half an hour going backwards to go forwards again, it's insane. It would be some achievement if some day you could go all the way from Sandyford to the airport on the Luas with only one change at Abbey a Street.

Other than that I really think a spur should be built off the red line beyond Hueston to run through Ballyfermot, Palmerstown, Lucan and then finish up in Maynooth or Celbridge. The west of Dublin has a huge population and it's crying out for a better link to town than what Dublin Bus currently offer.

I think by and large the south side is more than adequately served by Luas thus far and any investment in Luas beyond BXD should be ring fenced for either the north or the west sides of the city.

Jamie2k9 · 06-04-2014 9:22pm

I agree about Line F and it would ease pressure on red line between Heuston and Connolly by people changing to finish at Collage Green. The next line is unlikely for 10 years and included in the 2020-2024 rounds of investment as DART Underground is likely to be given go ahead in part during the 2016-2020 spend which will probably take most of the funding.

If given a choice would people prefer Dart Underground or another Luas line in 2016-2020 spend? Can't help but feel Luas would be a better spend but then again Dart Underground would benefit commuters on Heuston commuter belts.

cmore123 · 06-04-2014 9:34pm

Diverting Sligo line trains into Heuston isn't possible on the existing railway network. I think that a heavy rail line maybe off the Belfast line into the airport is very desirable. The tram should serve Phibsborough, Finglas and Swords. Also, extension of the green line to Bray. Possibly another line out through Rathmines / Terenure / Templeogue to Rathfarnham?

While it wouldn't be a million miles away from the northern DART line, a tram route out through Artane / Donnycarney / Clare Hall, as that area is often badly congested with traffic, would be good.

_Kaiser_ · 07-04-2014 12:50pm

Agree with the above re north side Dublin - woefully neglected in terms of public transport for decades - but seeing as these are mainly working-class or welfare areas containing people who vote SF or not at all, it's not surprising that the only real improvement (the DART) was aligned along the well-heeled coastal regions.

Contrast with south Dublin with it's DART, LUAS, 46A and it's plain to see where the investment goes. Ironically they'd probably do better on the north side but that would also require a determined effort to deal with the social problems in those areas (caused in part by the lack of investment generally) which there's no political will to do either. We've already seen the results of this with the existing Red Line.

Someone raised a good point on the rail thread though - we simply don't have the density or public mindset to justify the expense for these sort of schemes. The population of the whole country is only a fraction of some of the bigger cities on the continent and yet we expect the same services? Then there's the fact that Irish people don't want to live in high-density areas and consider public transport to be the choice for those with no better options.

Given all this a reality check needed I think.

Zebra3 · 07-04-2014 3:05pm

I don't think extending the green line to Bray should be a priority next. By all means safeguard the possible line from development, but I think there's a lot of land to be developed yet around the last extension on that line first.

An upgrade to the Maynooth line would do a lot for the west of the city, if feed properly with buses, so with regard Luas, an extension on from Broombridge would be logical as would the Fatima-College Green line.

Assuming DU does get built at some stage in the future, you'd have a great number of well placed lines coming into the city centre from all directions.

Would any extension from the Point to Eastpoint be used off-peak?

ongarboy · 07-04-2014 3:16pm

devnull wrote: »

The first part of DUblin that needs transport sorting out is the North of the city and especially the North West, it has been starved of any proper mass transport infrastructure for a long time and doesn't have anywhere near the choices and options that the south side has.

In fairness though, (assuming we're referring to the same geographical location) is the north west that badly served? You have quite frequent commuter rail services along the Maynooth line (capturing parts of Blanch/Castleknock/Coolmine/Clonsilla/Ongar) which has been further improved with the spur to Dunboyne. The 37/38/39/39A/70 are frequent and the 39A in particular has vastly improved in directness and time savings and the new BRT is on the way for the same route. Places like Mulhuddart, Tyrellstown and maybe Finglas etc are quite poorly served alright however but I imagine it's not feasible for every suburb to have rail connectivity.

Morf · 08-04-2014 2:42am

Should transport policy be looking to increase housing density closer to Dublin centre rather than cause more ribbon development along a green extension to Bray?

Should higher density and how transport planning could affect that be considered?

expectationlost · 08-04-2014 2:49am

what was the letter of the line that was at some point far in future supposed to go through beaumont to kilbarrack?

Banjoxed · 08-04-2014 7:45am

Morf wrote: »

Should transport policy be looking to increase housing density closer to Dublin centre rather than cause more ribbon development along a green extension to Bray?

Should higher density and how transport planning could affect that be considered?

There is a high frequency transport corridor nearly all the way to Bray. It is insane not to use that to its greatest potential and to provide good connections south as well as from the city centre to the central section of the line between Sandyford and Dundrum.

icdg · 08-04-2014 9:27am

There'd be no point diverting the Sligo line to the Kildare line, geography alone (the Liffey valley, and I don't mean the shopping centre!) means you'd realistically have to do it no later than Leixlip, constructing a new branch line to meet the Kildare line around Hazelhatch, and you'd be sending trains significantly out of their way for what gain? Maynooth line services could be improved more cheaply by electrification, closing level crossings and signalling upgrades.

Banjoxed · 08-04-2014 10:08am

icdg wrote: »

There'd be no point diverting the Sligo line to the Kildare line, geography alone (the Liffey valley, and I don't mean the shopping centre!) means you'd realistically have to do it no later than Leixlip, constructing a new branch line to meet the Kildare line around Hazelhatch, and you'd be sending trains significantly out of their way for what gain? Maynooth line services could be improved more cheaply by electrification, closing level crossings and signalling upgrades.

I believe the GSR did draw up plans sometime in the forties to divert the Midland line from before Leixlip (now Leixlip LB) and run via Barnhall to the South Western line between Hazelhatch and Lucan South. This only made very marginal sense when Ballina/Westport/Galway trains ran on the Midland via Mullingar and into Westland Row, and capacity was limited on the GSR side of Amiens Street, but none whatsoever now.

TheBandicoot · 08-04-2014 12:47pm

icdg wrote: »

There'd be no point diverting the Sligo line to the Kildare line, geography alone (the Liffey valley, and I don't mean the shopping centre!) means you'd realistically have to do it no later than Leixlip, constructing a new branch line to meet the Kildare line around Hazelhatch, and you'd be sending trains significantly out of their way for what gain? Maynooth line services could be improved more cheaply by electrification, closing level crossings and signalling upgrades.

Exactly. As a D15 user of the Maynooth line, I don't want it replaced with a Luas line, I would rather see it upgraded to a better heavy rail service.

cgcsb · 08-04-2014 1:07pm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Someone raised a good point on the rail thread though - we simply don't have the density or public mindset to justify the expense for these sort of schemes. The population of the whole country is only a fraction of some of the bigger cities on the continent and yet we expect the same services? Then there's the fact that Irish people don't want to live in high-density areas and consider public transport to be the choice for those with no better options.

Given all this a reality check needed I think.

That's a myth really, Dublin has similar overall pop and density compared to Amsterdam, Vienna, Lyon, Copenhagen etc. all of which invest substantially in rail based transport. High density living in Dublin has been made impared by planning authorities. Even central areas of Dublin are restricted to less than 6 floors and apartments now require dual aspect windows, it's impossible for developers to make a profit on those terms. There is a high demand for rental properties in Dublin which is why it's almost as expensive as London.

LXFlyer · 08-04-2014 2:10pm

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Agree with the above re north side Dublin - woefully neglected in terms of public transport for decades - but seeing as these are mainly working-class or welfare areas containing people who vote SF or not at all, it's not surprising that the only real improvement (the DART) was aligned along the well-heeled coastal regions.

Contrast with south Dublin with it's DART, LUAS, 46A and it's plain to see where the investment goes. Ironically they'd probably do better on the north side but that would also require a determined effort to deal with the social problems in those areas (caused in part by the lack of investment generally) which there's no political will to do either. We've already seen the results of this with the existing Red Line.

Someone raised a good point on the rail thread though - we simply don't have the density or public mindset to justify the expense for these sort of schemes. The population of the whole country is only a fraction of some of the bigger cities on the continent and yet we expect the same services? Then there's the fact that Irish people don't want to live in high-density areas and consider public transport to be the choice for those with no better options.

Given all this a reality check needed I think.

I think that you're being a little unfair in saying that there has been no public transport investment in north Dublin - it has had several additional bus routes added - the 4, 40d, 140, Swords Express, with existing routes on the other QBCs straightened such as the 13 and 39a, better integration of existing routes on the QBCs, larger vehicles on the key Blanchardstown routes and now has the prospect of two BRT routes being added.

The reality is that the investment in rail on the south side to date has been on routes that were already in existence (DART / Green Line) and which would have had very high car usage.However, I'd hardly think that the Red line would be described as well heeled by any means.

I'd imagine that if and when money is available, that the next extension for LUAS would be from Broombridge to Finglas, and that could possibly be extended subsequently to the Airport.

However, if it is decided to extend to the Airport, then I would prefer to see a DART connection to the Airport via Clongriffen (with interchange there to/from Belfast) over Metro North.

I'm not so convinced by the potential benefits from line F - It certainly would be slower than the 25a/25b to/from Lucan given the on-street priority those routes have, and I think that it could actually be not that much faster than the existing bus service to/from Ballyfermot given the route that it takes.

Nor am I as convinced as others seem to be by extending the Green Line further south - it is already slower than the 145 bus from Cherrywood to St Stephen's Green, due to the route taken (which is the correct route as it serves the more populated areas), and whether the market to/from Dundrum or Sandyford is that big from points south of Cherrywood. Personally I think that developing a P & R site at Cherrywood should be more of a priority.

markpb · 08-04-2014 5:35pm

icdg wrote: »

Maynooth line services could be improved more cheaply by electrification, closing level crossings and signalling upgrades.

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Exactly. As a D15 user of the Maynooth line, I don't want it replaced with a Luas line, I would rather see it upgraded to a better heavy rail service.

Signalling upgrades are neither cheap nor simple. The removal of each level crossing cost millions, the ongoing operation of them costs hundreds of thousands per year. Finding space to terminate any extra trains from Maynooth on the Dart line or at any of it's stations is almost impossible without significant work. All this means that the chances of the Maynooth line being upgraded in it's current form in any meaningful way is close to zero.

Meanwhile, the people of Clonsilla, Castleknock, Ashtown, etc are penalised for living on a suburban line. Compare the service per hour and operating hours of the Maynooth line to the Sandyford line:

Suburban (Western)
Weekday 36 per day (17h service)
Saturday 18 per day (16h service)
Sunday 13 per day (10h service)

Luas (Green)
Weekday 144 per day (20h service)
Saturday 92 per day (18h service)
Sunday 70 per day (16h service)

The Luas averages 27kph between Sandyford and St. Stephens Green, the suburban train averages 30kph so heavy rail isn't providing any speed benefit to passengers, even after they've waited multiples longer for their train in the first place.

Every rail alignment in the city, of which there are very few, should be carrying the maximum number of passengers possible, otherwise it's being wasted. In 2013, the two Luas lines carried 90,000 passengers per day (hitting a maximum of 145,000 in 2007). In 2011, the Maynooth line was only carrying 15,000. Unless those numbers have risen considerably, that line would be better served carrying a more frequent tram service for people living in Dublin.

Aard · 08-04-2014 7:04pm

For reference:

The Randstad Rail lines between the Hague and Zoetermeer in Holland run on converted heavy rail tracks.

Apart from being financially attractive in the long run, there are other benefits to converting heavy rail lines to light rail where appropriate. It is easier to run a more frequent service. Frequency of service is often a major stumbling block to the success of transport lines. 15 minutes is considered bare-minimum, 10-minutes is good, and 5 minutes is fantastic. Secondly, it is easier to route light rail through the existing built environment. Much more difficult and expensive to do so with heavy rail.

I'm not saying that converting part or all of the line through Blanch to light rail is a good or bad idea, just that there is recent precedent and that it may prove attractive in the long-run for Dublin 15's public transport needs.

Infini · 08-04-2014 8:53pm

Maynooth line definately needs investment at the very least besides the removal of level crossings is electrification of the line. Would probably mean a DART depot might need to be built out that end as well as eventually they might need more trains or dispersion of trains to provide better service. Best location for that would possibly be on the M3 spur since its mostly open land there too.

Also a question on the M3 spur running all the way to navan as well since that a pretty large population centre as well.

As for luas while it makes sense in having an interchange what doesnt make sense is having it at BROOMBRIDGE of all places since everything that goes in there is wrecked by the local junkie groups unless the plan a serious fumigation of the local pests C_C. While it would be a good thing if it was ultimately extended all the way to the airport it would also make sense to build a heavy rail interconnector that was proposed as well.

end of the road · 08-04-2014 9:34pm

markpb wrote: »

Signalling upgrades are neither cheap nor simple. The removal of each level crossing cost millions, the ongoing operation of them costs hundreds of thousands per year. Finding space to terminate any extra trains from Maynooth on the Dart line or at any of it's stations is almost impossible without significant work. All this means that the chances of the Maynooth line being upgraded in it's current form in any meaningful way is close to zero.

Meanwhile, the people of Clonsilla, Castleknock, Ashtown, etc are penalised for living on a suburban line. Compare the service per hour and operating hours of the Maynooth line to the Sandyford line:

Suburban (Western)
Weekday 36 per day (17h service)
Saturday 18 per day (16h service)
Sunday 13 per day (10h service)

Luas (Green)
Weekday 144 per day (20h service)
Saturday 92 per day (18h service)
Sunday 70 per day (16h service)

The Luas averages 27kph between Sandyford and St. Stephens Green, the suburban train averages 30kph so heavy rail isn't providing any speed benefit to passengers, even after they've waited multiples longer for their train in the first place.

Every rail alignment in the city, of which there are very few, should be carrying the maximum number of passengers possible, otherwise it's being wasted. In 2013, the two Luas lines carried 90,000 passengers per day (hitting a maximum of 145,000 in 2007). In 2011, the Maynooth line was only carrying 15,000. Unless those numbers have risen considerably, that line would be better served carrying a more frequent tram service for people living in Dublin.

heres the thing mark, to convert the maynooth line to tram train will surely mean a new line having to be built to re-route the sligo and longford services into heuston? where is that line going to be built? i honestly don't think this is an option

Banjoxed · 08-04-2014 9:37pm

Aard wrote: »

For reference:

The Randstad Rail lines between the Hague and Zoetermeer in Holland run on converted heavy rail tracks.

Apart from being financially attractive in the long run, there are other benefits to converting heavy rail lines to light rail where appropriate. It is easier to run a more frequent service. Frequency of service is often a major stumbling block to the success of transport lines. 15 minutes is considered bare-minimum, 10-minutes is good, and 5 minutes is fantastic. Secondly, it is easier to route light rail through the existing built environment. Much more difficult and expensive to do so with heavy rail.

I'm not saying that converting part or all of the line through Blanch to light rail is a good or bad idea, just that there is recent precedent and that it may prove attractive in the long-run for Dublin 15's public transport needs.

Best plan would be to convert the Maynooth line to DART. Higher capacity, considerably faster and attractive to car drivers. Oh wait..

New Luas lines or extensions after BXD

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