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Updated GRO

16781012

Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    5 is half the price of 4??


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    MYOB wrote: »
    5 is half the price of 4??

    I pay 2e50 as I bought 50e worth of credit.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭Waitsian


    Ponster wrote: »
    It's half the price compared to getting a normal photocopy cert and the point about having them for a limited amount of time is rubbish really considering that you have 2 years to note the details.

    I agree that a photocopy will sometimes give you more info and it removes the doubt that there was something missed in the transcription but there are often cases where you just don't need the photocopy.

    After 217 purchases I've saved a load of money rather than getting the photocopies.

    Their search function is terrible and means you're looking for a needle in a haystack at times. It seems it's deliberately set up to exploit people needlessly.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Ponster wrote: »
    I pay 2e50 as I bought 50e worth of credit.

    I don't generally have the volume of stuff required to commit that amount at once.

    I'll keep paying €4 for a permanent physical copy of the full document.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ponster


    mod9maple wrote: »
    Their search function is terrible.

    It must be a personal thing but I find it very useful. The ability to search by parish and look for people based on their parents' names means that I can usually find the exact cert that I need without having to buy several photocopies.

    I have though used Roots Ireland to narrow down a cert and then ordered the 4euro photocopy :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    Ponster wrote: »
    It must be a personal thing but I find it very useful. The ability to search by parish and look for people based on their parents' names means that I can usually find the exact cert that I need without having to buy several photocopies.

    I have though used Roots Ireland to narrow down a cert and then ordered the 4euro photocopy :)

    ditto re the GRO certs, where dates allow - and the RootsIreland index search is also useful for finding a list of siblings


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    Oi Oi! I'm finding it difficult to get onto irishgenealogy.ie this evening. Nothing shtirrin' on the church records. Anyone else having problems, or is it just me?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Maybe not just you - but it's working for me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    Must be just me then. Thought something was happening there for a minute. :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,706 ✭✭✭Waitsian


    Jellybaby1 wrote: »
    Must be just me then. Thought something was happening there for a minute. :o

    Still no word on the new historical indexes? Anything from Claire Santry or John Grenham?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Some reports on rootschat of problems on it as well.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 37 Rox_88


    Jellybaby1 wrote: »
    Oi Oi! I'm finding it difficult to get onto irishgenealogy.ie this evening. Nothing shtirrin' on the church records. Anyone else having problems, or is it just me?

    I got very excited this evening, I was "just checking" for the tenth time today. It was taking forever to load, memories of the 3rd of July came flooding back, slow and frustrating but worth it.


    "Civil Indexes temporarily unavailable – it is hoped to restore certain indexes in the
    near future."

    :(:(:(


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,777 ✭✭✭shanew


    The site has been slow for me too, and it often needs a few page refreshes to wake it up, otherwise it seems to pause with the page header display and nothing else. .. although this morning the speed is fine for me.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    From irishgenealogynews.ie
    Concerns about GRO records raised in Dáil Debate
    The Civil Registration (Amendment) Bill 2014 reached its Second Stage reading on Tuesday 7 October.

    As previously mentioned on Irish Genealogy News, this Bill seeks to update existing legislation to better reflect modern Irish society as well as providing a legal framework for the General Register Office to eventually provide electronic access to its historical civil registration records of births, marriages and deaths*.

    Will it ever be resolved?:(

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    You are more brave than I! :D I almost posted that last night but was afraid to heighten expectations on the forum! :o Also, I still can't always access the site.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    From my reading of the Bill and explanatory document the GRO aspect is a very minor part of it (Section 23) , so it depends on how long the working group takes to finalize it, then send it to the Seanad. Delay will depend on how the other content is viewed, not much appears to be very contentious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    So, years then?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Probably not. It's at second stage already which is fast by usual standards. There are a few emotive (feel-good) issues in the Bill that many politicos will love to see passed so they can blurb good personal PR, hence an effort to get it though soon, (General Election, keep snouts in trough, etc.) My guess from a DP perspective is that we will follow the Australian model for on-line access, i.e. the 100 year rule or similar. The daft thing is (as I wrote waay back) the CLDS site will have much more info anyway, and there is nothing Ireland Inc can do about that, or getting it 'taken down.'


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The 100/75/50 (Births/Marriages/Deaths) used by ScotlandsPeople for full records seems to have been picked up on for the proposal for what will eventually return for the indexes - although ScotlandsPeople has indexes online that are newer than that, its only the full certs that aren't available


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    Probably not. It's at second stage already which is fast by usual standards. There are a few emotive (feel-good) issues in the Bill that many politicos will love to see passed so they can blurb good personal PR, hence an effort to get it though soon, (General Election, keep snouts in trough, etc.) My guess from a DP perspective is that we will follow the Australian model for on-line access, i.e. the 100 year rule or similar. The daft thing is (as I wrote waay back) the CLDS site will have much more info anyway, and there is nothing Ireland Inc can do about that, or getting it 'taken down.'


    Do you know if any agency (whoever, on behalf of the country) has tried to get CLDS to take down the civil registration listings?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    CeannRua wrote: »
    Do you know if any agency (whoever, on behalf of the country) has tried to get CLDS to take down the civil registration listings?

    I sincerely hope that never happens!

    In the meantime how come the UK records are available right up to recent times? Any chance we could take a leaf out of their book?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    CeannRua wrote: »
    [/B]

    Do you know if any agency (whoever, on behalf of the country) has tried to get CLDS to take down the civil registration listings?

    No. Which is why I mentioned CLDS as a specific example. I very much doubt any person/state/entity would be successful in having info removed, given US laws on 'freedom of speech.' Furthermore, it would be daft to have any Irish website host / organization precluded from showing data that is freely available from a source outside this jurisdiction. My GUESS is that the Data Comms saw a legal basis for an action against this State under breach of DP laws and there is now a move to rectify that. Let's hope they 'get it right'. In the meantime we wait........


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    No. Which is why I mentioned CLDS as a specific example. I very much doubt any person/state/entity would be successful in having info removed, given US laws on 'freedom of speech.' Furthermore, it would be daft to have any Irish website host / organization precluded from showing data that is freely available from a source outside this jurisdiction. My GUESS is that the Data Comms saw a legal basis for an action against this State under breach of DP laws and there is now a move to rectify that. Let's hope they 'get it right'. In the meantime we wait........


    The reason I asked was that if any agency was to open discussions with CLDS it would presumably be the DP people. Given that they weren't consulted about IrishGenealogy, you'd wonder what level of knowledge there is in that office about genealogy sources, and if they even know about FamilySearch.
    If they were to go about it, in any case, it may come down to what agreement (if any) there was between the GRO and CLDS when the latter was given the civil listings. There is a 'Safe Harbor' agreement between the US and the EU that ties in with data protection. It is there to ensure that US organisations respect EU DP law. I'm not familiar with its precepts so don't know if CLDS complies but that would be the legal pathway.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I would say the indexes in their old format are safe enough - it just gives you a quarter of a year at best and for some years, mothers' maiden names.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    I would say the indexes in their old format are safe enough - it just gives you a quarter of a year at best and for some years, mothers' maiden names.

    The legal definition of personal data under the DP Acts is:
    "personal data" means data relating to a living individual who is or can be identified either from the data or from the data in conjunction with other information that is in, or is likely to come into, the possession of the data controller

    ...therefore, I'd say that what is currently on FamilySearch constitutes personal data under the DP Acts.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    CeannRua wrote: »
    The reason I asked was that if any agency was to open discussions with CLDS it would presumably be the DP people. Given that they weren't consulted about IrishGenealogy, you'd wonder what level of knowledge there is in that office about genealogy sources, and if they even know about FamilySearch.
    If they were to go about it, in any case, it may come down to what agreement (if any) there was between the GRO and CLDS when the latter was given the civil listings. There is a 'Safe Harbor' agreement between the US and the EU that ties in with data protection. It is there to ensure that US organisations respect EU DP law. I'm not familiar with its precepts so don't know if CLDS complies but that would be the legal pathway.

    Firstly, I’ve no ‘inside track’ on this issue, but I’ve some familiarity with ‘the thinking’ because one of my day-to-day jobs involves a company that is a substantial ‘Data Controller’ (within EU only) and I need to have an overall awareness of DP legislation.

    I agree with you that the GRO info is Personal Data. Equally, I believe there is a strong case (on the grounds already used by the Data Commissioner) to prevent general access to the GRO paper records for living persons.

    I’d suggest before any Irish ‘Govt.’ site was ‘taken down’ the reasons would have been spelled out in a very clear fashion and there would be a full explanation as to what was available elsewhere on the Web, so 'they' would be fully aware of CLDS, etc. However, and in response, the Civil Service attitude would have been ‘We don’t care who is publishing it or where it is, that does not mean we should do it on a Government site if we are at risk of being sued.’

    As for initiating legal action to prevent the CLDS from using the GRO info, it would never happen, the Irish civil service ‘view’ certainly was (and probably still is) to avoid ‘the law’ at all costs. Lawyers, particularly those in the US, love government involvement in any action as it means protracted delays on decision making, (i.e. more fees) but more importantly they see such an action as one against very, very deep pockets. The bosses in the Dail would run a mile.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    Firstly, I’ve no ‘inside track’ on this issue, but I’ve some familiarity with ‘the thinking’ because one of my day-to-day jobs involves a company that is a substantial ‘Data Controller’ (within EU only) and I need to have an overall awareness of DP legislation.

    I agree with you that the GRO info is Personal Data. Equally, I believe there is a strong case (on the grounds already used by the Data Commissioner) to prevent general access to the GRO paper records for living persons.

    I’d suggest before any Irish ‘Govt.’ site was ‘taken down’ the reasons would have been spelled out in a very clear fashion and there would be a full explanation as to what was available elsewhere on the Web, so 'they' would be fully aware of CLDS, etc. However, and in response, the Civil Service attitude would have been ‘We don’t care who is publishing it or where it is, that does not mean we should do it on a Government site if we are at risk of being sued.’

    As for initiating legal action to prevent the CLDS from using the GRO info, it would never happen, the Irish civil service ‘view’ certainly was (and probably still is) to avoid ‘the law’ at all costs. Lawyers, particularly those in the US, love government involvement in any action as it means protracted delays on decision making, (i.e. more fees) but more importantly they see such an action as one against very, very deep pockets. The bosses in the Dail would run a mile.

    Firstly, I wasn't suggesting that any Irish agency would initiate legal action against CLDS. I was merely responding to the point you made about American freedom of speech. The Safe Harbor agreement is there to supposedly curb this sort of thing.

    I hadn't seen this article until today http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/genealogy-site-left-personal-data-open-to-identity-thieves-says-commissioner-1.1872664

    What the Commissioner seems to be exercised about is the availability of information online rather than the simple availability of information. This is pretty spurious imo. There are plenty of cases on the record where the DP people found fault with third party access to personal information and it had nothing to do with the internet. The line taken here may well be down to the fact that that the Commissioner can't limit access to GRO records, even if he wanted to, but I find it odd that a DP Commissioner would come out with a statement like this. Given his annoyance about web access, I wonder if he knew about FamilySearch. There is less info there than IrishGenealogy admittedly but still enough to identify people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭cnoc


    CeannRua wrote: »
    [/B]

    Do you know if any agency (whoever, on behalf of the country) has tried to get CLDS to take down the civil registration listings?


    Why do you want this information taken down?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 470 ✭✭CeannRua


    cnoc wrote: »
    Why do you want this information taken down?

    The answer to this is already in the few posts on this I've written. I'm as much interested in the contradictions around the availability of these records as in anything on FamilySeach.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭snickerpuss


    Is the church records section of the Irish Genealogy website not working for anyone else? Tried it from multiple places over the last week and while the search page will appear once I enter a query the results never load. Refreshing doesn't work either.


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