Attitude in the bus lane

the boss of me · 19-12-2014 5:22pm

Bus services 26/26/66 &67 as curtailed at this very.minute due to heavy traffic in the Cc.. Other services are experiencing delays at Blanch and Liffey Valley. None of these delays are.down to cyclists. In fact as a bus driver I cant ever claim to have been delayed significantly by a cyclist. Its really all about perception. Next time you are stuck on a bus behind a cyclist start your stopwatch.. 99% of the time the bus will pass or the cyclist will cycle away into the distance within five to ten seconds. The three things that hold.up buses most are heavy traffic, roadworks and an unusually large number of.passengers. As a cyclist I would agree with a lot of the comment re cycle paths..

Seaswimmer · 19-12-2014 5:26pm

Danjamin1 wrote: »

Ah yeah, that's the street I'm talking about, round the back of the church. I've cycled it a lot with the traffic flow, never noticed the contra flow!

Not to go off topic too much but you will soon have a cycle lane on the bypass itself. First bit around the Frescati shopping centre is complete and its nice and wide.

JayRoc · 19-12-2014 5:34pm

ted1 wrote: »

Blackrock village has one.

Yeah, Newtown Avenue. Although interestingly, I've been beeped at many times by motorists for being on their precious road rather than going the wrong way down that particular contraflow bike lane.

You just can't win sometimes.

JayRoc · 19-12-2014 5:38pm

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Not to go off topic too much but you will soon have a cycle lane on the bypass itself. First bit around the Frescati shopping centre is complete and its nice and wide.

Sadly, the cynical part of me thinks that may have been prompted by a recent tragedy on that stretch of road. And even more sadly, I'm not sure that having a cycle lane would have prevented it

Seaswimmer · 19-12-2014 5:50pm

JayRoc wrote: »

Sadly, the cynical part of me thinks that may have been prompted by a recent tragedy on that stretch road. And even more sadly, I'm not sure that having a cycle lane would have prevented it

In fairness I think its been planned for a while but things move slowly in DLR. From what I have seen its way ahead of anything on the N11. Probably because its on the road, well surfaced and marked and of an adequate width.

RayM · 19-12-2014 5:51pm

ted1 wrote: »

There not blocking busses, busses have Ample opportunity to over take them and can quickly make up any time that it took to overtake.

That's not true. I've been on plenty of buses that didn't have any opportunity to safely overtake cyclists in the bus lane.

It would probably be a bit safer if the cycle lanes on the N11 were level with the bus lane, rather than with the footpath. At least that way, if people still insisted on cycling in the bus lane, it would be possible for them to get out of the way. If I was a cyclist, I'd feel a bit guilty about delaying an entire busload of people.

Seaswimmer · 19-12-2014 5:57pm

RayM wrote: »

That's not true. I've been on plenty of buses that didn't have any opportunity to safely overtake cyclists in the bus lane.

It would probably be a bit safer if the cycle lanes on the N11 were level with the bus lane, rather than with the footpath. At least that way, if people still insisted on cycling in the bus lane, it would be possible for them to get out of the way. If I was a cyclist, I'd feel a bit guilty about delaying an entire busload of people.

There lies the problem.

We have just had a post from a bus driver who is also a cyclist. Whose opinion do you think is more informed?

Danjamin1 · 19-12-2014 5:59pm

RayM wrote: »

That's not true. I've been on plenty of buses that didn't have any opportunity to safely overtake cyclists in the bus lane.

It would probably be a bit safer if the cycle lanes on the N11 were level with the bus lane, rather than with the footpath. At least that way, if people still insisted on cycling in the bus lane, it would be possible for them to get out of the way. If I was a cyclist, I'd feel a bit guilty about delaying an entire busload of people.

See comment from the boss of me, I'll take his word for it as a bus driver that he's not been held up significantly by cyclists. And I absolutely will not feel guilty for cycling safely in a bus lane when necessary! The suggestion of such is ridiculous! If anything I find myself being delayed by congested traffic including busses more often than I find myself impeding anyone!

RayM · 19-12-2014 6:13pm

Danjamin1 wrote: »

See comment from the boss of me, I'll take his word for it as a bus driver that he's not been held up significantly by cyclists. And I absolutely will not feel guilty for cycling safely in a bus lane when necessary! The suggestion of such is ridiculous! If anything I find myself being delayed by congested traffic including busses more often than I find myself impeding anyone!

On the N11, from Belfield to Cornelscourt, I've often been on buses that were significantly held up by cyclists, and couldn't get past because of heavy traffic in the driving lane. That's just my experience, as someone who regularly uses buses.

And yes, if I was one of the minority of cyclists on the N11 who chooses to use the bus lane, rather than the cycle lane, I would feel that I was being quite selfish to delay up to 100 people at a time.

cdebru · 19-12-2014 6:24pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Dublin is practically perfect for cycling in!!

Fairly flat, moderate weather, compact and decent architecture - it's about as good city to cycle in as you can get.

If it wasn't for all the cars

cython · 19-12-2014 6:53pm

RayM wrote: »

On the N11, from Belfield to Cornelscourt, I've often been on buses that were significantly held up by cyclists, and couldn't get past because of heavy traffic in the driving lane. That's just my experience, as someone who regularly uses buses.

And yes, if I was one of the minority of cyclists on the N11 who chooses to use the bus lane, rather than the cycle lane, I would feel that I was being quite selfish to delay up to 100 people at a time.

You were just as arguably held up by said heavy traffic in that case.......

the boss of me · 19-12-2014 6:54pm

RayM wrote: »

On the N11, from Belfield to Cornelscourt, I've often been on buses that were significantly held up by cyclists, and couldn't get past because of heavy traffic in the driving lane. .

What would you regard as "significant" though ? Its a few years since I have driven on the 46a but I cannot recall ever being held up for.more than a few seconds by bicycles on that stretch of road. Still organ village could be bad and Bakers corner was a nightmare. Cyclists may have been annoying but didn't cause any delays in my recollection. In fairness cyclists would travel from Whites cross to Foxrock church faster than the bus.

Macy0161 · 19-12-2014 7:03pm

RayM wrote: »

And yes, if I was one of the minority of cyclists on the N11 who chooses to use the bus lane, rather than the cycle lane, I would feel that I was being quite selfish to delay up to 100 people at a time.

You wouldn't think why they don't want to use the cycle lane? Its just that they're being selfish?

For what its worth I do generally use the cycle lane on that very route - I don't go fast enough on the uphills to be as concerned about the shocking quality of the surface in many parts as I might be if I was fitter. I regularly "beat" buses from ucd to foxrock church at peak times. They're held up by the volume in passengers, other buses that they cant get around due to traffic, and by queues of cars blocking the bus lane at various left turns in my experience.

JayRoc · 19-12-2014 7:07pm

RayM wrote: »

On the N11, from Belfield to Cornelscourt, I've often been on buses that were significantly held up by cyclists, and couldn't get past because of heavy traffic in the driving lane. That's just my experience, as someone who regularly uses buses.

And yes, if I was one of the minority of cyclists on the N11 who chooses to use the bus lane, rather than the cycle lane, I would feel that I was being quite selfish to delay up to 100 people at a time.

I don't understand. Have you not read the thread?
Do you think we cycle on the road where it's safer in order to piss you off?

RayM · 19-12-2014 7:19pm

cython wrote: »

You were just as arguably held up by said heavy traffic in that case.......

Not really. The whole point of bus lanes should be to prevent buses from getting caught up in (or adding to) heavy traffic in the other lanes.

the boss of me wrote: »

What would regard as "significant" though ? Its a few years since I have driven on the 46a but I cannot recall ever being held up for.more than a few seconds by bicycles on that stretch of road. Still organ village could be bad and Bakers corner was a nightmare. Cyclists may have been annoying but didn't cause any delays in my recollection. In fairness cyclists would travel from Whites cross to Foxrock church faster than the bus.

I get the 84X most evenings, and it regularly gets delayed by cyclists in the bus lane, all the way as far as Cornelscourt. It's probably more of a problem on the 84X than other routes, as it doesn't stop as often. You could easily be stuck behind a slow-moving cyclist for a few kilometres. It might not add up to a huge amount of time - it's probably more about the perception of being delayed than anything.

I'm not anti-cyclist, by the way. I'd rather see single-occupant-vehicles being discouraged from using the roads than cyclists. I'd actually love to see normal traffic being reduced to just one lane along stretches of the N11, with a full-sized cycle lane, extra buses and park & ride facilities being made available instead.

ted1 · 19-12-2014 7:19pm

RayM wrote: »

On the N11, from Belfield to Cornelscourt, I've often been on buses that were significantly held up by cyclists, and couldn't get past because of heavy traffic in the driving lane. That's just my experience, as someone who regularly uses buses.

And yes, if I was one of the minority of cyclists on the N11 who chooses to use the bus lane, rather than the cycle lane, I would feel that I was being quite selfish to delay up to 100 people at a time.

Ray there's a reason why some sections are not used. They simply are not safe to use. Cyclists tend to take the safest route. Your not a cyclist so you can't comment on there use

I'm just back from my commute. From donnybrook church to UCD I mostly used the bus lane as the bike lane is in rag order and not safe. 2 busses safely overtook me as lane is wide. I over took 3 busses. From ucd to appelgreen I used the bike lane as its on good condition. Past the 2 busses again. The bike lane gets **** here but lots of taxis so took it handy till it got good about 100m after the car sales garage. Cycle lane is pretty good from here on. Gets a bit tough and St. John of Gods and there is also a cat constantly parked on the bike lane outside the galloping green.

At White cross the bike lane surface is good but it's up and down at every house entrance, on the bike lane I travel at about 20 where as in the bus lane I get 40. So I choose the bus lane. From foxrock church to the next lights the bike lane is in crap condition and is a danger. So I use bus lane. From here on out the bike lane is ok, except the parts around bus lanes. Lots if misaligned riad surfaces and surface dressing missing.

At ESSO to the flyover the surface dressing is appealing it was rolled out, looks like they used a water drum a real bone shaker and doesn't encourage use. By a bus stop there's a few dangerous pot holes.

Only bus that over took me that I dudnt repass was the wexford. Bus. Time from ballsbridge to killiney 31 minutes.

RayM · 19-12-2014 7:26pm

ted1 wrote: »

Ray there's a reason why some sections are not used. They simply are not safe to use. Cyclists tend to take the safest route. Your not a cyclist so you can't comment on there use

Plenty of cyclists do use them.

It just annoys me generally that the bus lane always has to take up the slack, whenever there's a problem. If the guards pull a car over, they stop in the bus lane. If there's a minor accident, it's moved into the bus lane. If a cyclist judges that the cycle lane is unsafe, they use the bus lane. The government should be making both public transport and cycling more attractive. The current road layout seems not only to discourage both, but regularly leaves them in conflict with each other.

cdebru · 19-12-2014 9:39pm

RayM wrote: »

Not really. The whole point of bus lanes should be to prevent buses from getting caught up in (or adding to) heavy traffic in the other lanes.

I get the 84X most evenings, and it regularly gets delayed by cyclists in the bus lane, all the way as far as Cornelscourt. It's probably more of a problem on the 84X than other routes, as it doesn't stop as often. You could easily be stuck behind a slow-moving cyclist for a few kilometres. It might not add up to a huge amount of time - it's probably more about the perception of being delayed than anything.

I'm not anti-cyclist, by the way. I'd rather see single-occupant-vehicles being discouraged from using the roads than cyclists. I'd actually love to see normal traffic being reduced to just one lane along stretches of the N11, with a full-sized cycle lane, extra buses and park & ride facilities being made available instead.

The only time in a bus lane that you really might get impeded is when the other lanes are chock a block and the bus can't get out to go round the cyclist but its not the cyclists fault that there are too many cars on the road, if more of those in cars got out of them and onto buses or bikes there wouldn't be a problem in effect it is the cars that are impeding the bus not the bike also bus lanes are often so narrow that it is hard to fit a bus inside the line never mind pass a cyclist, again not the cyclists fault.

cdebru · 19-12-2014 9:42pm

RayM wrote: »

Plenty of cyclists do use them.

It just annoys me generally that the bus lane always has to take up the slack, whenever there's a problem. If the guards pull a car over, they stop in the bus lane. If there's a minor accident, it's moved into the bus lane. If a cyclist judges that the cycle lane is unsafe, they use the bus lane. The government should be making both public transport and cycling more attractive. The current road layout seems not only to discourage both, but regularly leaves them in conflict with each other.

That's more of a problem with the positioning of bus lanes which is why proper BRT uses the center lane and thus avoids people queuing to turn left and using the labe for deliveries to answer the phone or as a hard shoulder.

desertcircus · 19-12-2014 10:06pm

I used to cycle home on the N11. Most evenings, thanks to a very regular finishing time, I passed the same Aston Martin at Leeson Bridge. Most evenings, that Aston finally caught me again south of Stillorgan, where the traffic finally opened up enough for it to cut loose. Cyclists, by and large (especially the ones confident enough to take the bus lane rather than going slow on the cycle lane), aren't delaying other traffic in any real way on that route.

Incidentally, unless there's been truly spectacular upgrades, that cycle lane (in both directions) is a heap of crap. The highlights are the foot-wide ditch southbound at White's Cross that cut directly across the cycle lane and was left completely unrepaired for at least three years, the two weeks it took for shattered glass to be cleared from the path at the bus stop at White's Cross, the roots on the northbound descent into Stillorgan cracking the surface and making it seriously risky at any speed, the drivers cutting across to Brewery Road without looking in their wing mirror for a cyclist, the ridiculous up-down-up-down bouncing on the northbound descent out of Stillorgan, the three months of the length of the Belfield-side lane being completely covered in wet, rotting leaves (and effectively being heavily greased as a result), the bus stop at Stillorgan it's impossible to reach as a pedestrian without jaywalking or walking along the cycle lane...

Snickers Man · 20-12-2014 2:27pm

Aard wrote: »

Are you being sarcastic? This would actually be really helpful, and kerb dishing is often neglected in cycle-track design.

No. I'm agreeing with you here.

I use cycle lanes myself. A lot. Much could be done to improve their design and maintenance.

And that's what we should be asking for.

Snickers Man · 20-12-2014 2:31pm

desertcircus wrote: »

I used to cycle home on the N11. Most evenings, thanks to a very regular finishing time, I passed the same Aston Martin at Leeson Bridge. Most evenings, that Aston finally caught me again south of Stillorgan, where the traffic finally opened up enough for it to cut loose. Cyclists, by and large (especially the ones confident enough to take the bus lane rather than going slow on the cycle lane), aren't delaying other traffic in any real way on that route.

Incidentally, unless there's been truly spectacular upgrades, that cycle lane (in both directions) is a heap of crap. The highlights are the foot-wide ditch southbound at White's Cross that cut directly across the cycle lane and was left completely unrepaired for at least three years, the two weeks it took for shattered glass to be cleared from the path at the bus stop at White's Cross, the roots on the northbound descent into Stillorgan cracking the surface and making it seriously risky at any speed, the drivers cutting across to Brewery Road without looking in their wing mirror for a cyclist, the ridiculous up-down-up-down bouncing on the northbound descent out of Stillorgan, the three months of the length of the Belfield-side lane being completely covered in wet, rotting leaves (and effectively being heavily greased as a result), the bus stop at Stillorgan it's impossible to reach as a pedestrian without jaywalking or walking along the cycle lane...

These are all valid points. But what's your conclusion?

That we should demand (of whomever we can, canvassing local politicians, the council themselves, the local TD etc) that cycle lanes are properly maintained and somehwat intelligently designed?

Or just say "Feck it" and continue to cycle on dual carriageways causing needless antagonism to motorists?

There's ways round most problems.

Jawgap · 20-12-2014 2:43pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

These are all valid points. But what's your conclusion?

That we should demand (of whomever we can, canvassing local politicians, the council themselves, the local TD etc) that cycle lanes are properly maintained and somehwat intelligently designed?

Or just say "Feck it" and continue to cycle on dual carriageways causing needless antagonism to motorists?

There's ways round most problems.

.......or a publicity campaign, backed up by enforcement, to remind motorists that they should show respect for other road users, and if they are feeling 'antagonised' the that's their problem, not someone else's.

If 'we' are going to lobby politicians, I'd prefer if it was for something useful, like proper enforcement of the safe passing law.

desertcircus · 20-12-2014 3:11pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

These are all valid points. But what's your conclusion?

That we should demand (of whomever we can, canvassing local politicians, the council themselves, the local TD etc) that cycle lanes are properly maintained and somehwat intelligently designed?

Or just say "Feck it" and continue to cycle on dual carriageways causing needless antagonism to motorists?

There's ways round most problems.

Cyclists are legally entitled to use the road, irrespective of the existence or condition of a parallel cycle path. If motorists get antagonised by cyclists using the road in a perfectly legal fashion, then they can do one.

micar · 20-12-2014 3:23pm

I travel from Santry, through Glasnevin, Phibsboro, Christchruch, Kevin St, St Stephan's Green up Leeson St and all the way up the N11 to cherrywood on the bike every day. I leave around 6.30 each morning.

Most of the time I use the cycle lanes. There are areas where I don't i.e. from Donnybrook Church the beginning of the UCD flyover.

Journey takes me 55mins. My speed is something around 30-35km per hour.

It take me roughly 30 mins to travel to the UCD flyover. Before you ask, I do stop at red lights.

Occasionally I do drive and amazingly it takes me 30 mins to get to the UCD flyover. I really only opens up once you get past UCD and up the hills.

If a bus did the same journey, it would actually take longer.

More often than not, on the way it's the buses slowing me down. On Friday and on the way home, I past 2 145s (at Cherrywood) and 84x, 46a and few others from UCD. I would have been well past them by the time they got to St Stephan's Green.
Even the non Dublin Buses, I would be faster than them travelling into the city. I would catch up with them at Donnybrook after.

I as a cyclist I don't hold up the buses. I do go by cyclist each day travelling slower then me. I can understand motorists frustration and I get frustrated when behind a slow cyclist. Being on the bike and when I see a gap coming, I make my move and go.

Pawwed Rig · 20-12-2014 3:31pm

It is congestion that slows down traffic. To suggest it is cyclists is just false. In my current situation I travel from 1 side of the city to the other on a daily basis during rush hour. After looking at all the different ways of traversing the city from quickest to slowest
1. Running
2. Cycling
3. Walking
4. Bus/Taxi
5. Car

So I run alot now
*DART and Luas are not applicable for my journey.

mrbike · 20-12-2014 6:05pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Incidentally, unless there's been truly spectacular upgrades, that cycle lane (in both directions) is a heap of crap.

There have been some improvements on certain sections. There's still a long way to go though... You'll notice near the end of this video, the cycle lane is placed in the left turning lane. It's puts you in the worst possible road position by design. That's just some of the crappy design cyclists have to put up with in this country.

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqiRsI6hvfM

JayRoc · 20-12-2014 11:23pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

These are all valid points. But what's your conclusion?

That we should demand (of whomever we can, canvassing local politicians, the council themselves, the local TD etc) that cycle lanes are properly maintained and somehwat intelligently designed?

Or just say "Feck it" and continue to cycle on dual carriageways causing needless antagonism to motorists?

There's ways round most problems.

I don't know about antagonism, but yeah; we belong on the road with the rest of the traffic.

So much of this argument (like many others) is based on perception (that cyclist is totally delaying me!) rather than fact (oh, there's that cyclist I blew out of it eleven seconds ago. How did he get ahead of me?).

monument · 21-12-2014 4:40pm

rp wrote: »

Sorry, spurious closing bracket, try: http://john-s-allen.com/research/berlin_1987/index.html

http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/wiki/cycle-paths-are-unsafe

Also, this is a funny responce to quotes from some of Allen's friends:

https://departmentfortransport.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/franklin-and-forester-quotes-in-a-dutch-context/

Macy0161 · 29-12-2014 11:16am

In the car this morning for the commute (not wimping out - have to collect the chaps on the way home!). Taxis, Buses and Coaches can FRO giving out about cyclists not using the cycle lane now - all of them refusing to use the bus lane this morning. And as we know from their attitude on the road (and by some on this thread), the condition of the dedicated lane is no excuse...

Attitude in the bus lane

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