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Gardai carrying Guns

12467…17

Comments

  • #92
    sundy89
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭sundy89


    Harry Bosch. wrote: »
    I suggest you choose another career. When i joined up it wasn't for the the image nor for what i'd carry on my belt. I joined up before the introduction of the ASP, Stabvest and Pepperspray. In 2007 i was issued a wooden Truncheon and sent on my merry way. When issued with my new kit and new IMAGE did it make me exempt from the public having a go? No, not one bit. You are young and i am not having a go, but join for the right reasons. As per the definition of assault you WILL get assaulted on duty, you will get bruised and battered and all off this will happen no matter what you carry on your belt. What happened to you friends father was unfortunate but it happens every night to Guards. I'll ask you this, Did you friends father quit or go back on the beat? I'd say he got right back out there. Why, because unfortunately it now become the norm.

    I commend your efforts on duty as a guard and that is good advice and to answer your question yes he got right back out there but it took him a while because he was more mentally scarred than physically. I didnt explain beating very well these guys set rottweilers on him and he only got out of it because of his size if he had been brought to the ground god knows what would have happened to him. Your comment has given me a different perspective on things. Just out of curiosity what do you mean by beaten on duty being the norm, thanks. Also would you personally like the tazer to be introduced.


  • #93
    Tyron Jara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭Tyron Jara


    sundy89 wrote: »
    I commend your efforts on duty as a guard and that is good advice and to answer your question yes he got right back out there but it took him a while because he was more mentally scarred than physically. I didnt explain beating very well these guys set rottweilers on him and he only got out of it because of his size if he had been brought to the ground god knows what would have happened to him. Your comment has given me a different perspective on things. Just out of curiosity what do you mean by beaten on duty being the norm, thanks. Also would you personally like the tazer to be introduced.

    He means getting injured at some stage is inevitable.

    If your interested try joining the reserves see what its like. It l give you a little perspective on whats out there. One thing though only do it if your actually interested in AGS and making a difference somewhere. Dont join for the Belt or uniform!!


  • #94
    sundy89
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭sundy89


    Tyron Jara wrote: »
    He means getting injured at some stage is inevitable.

    If your interested try joining the reserves see what its like. It l give you a little perspective on whats out there. One thing though only do it if your actually interested in AGS and making a difference somewhere. Dont join for the Belt or uniform!!

    are you in AGS


  • #95
    FruitLover
    Registered Users Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭FruitLover


    Harry Bosch. wrote: »
    Could you please use proper spelling, grammer

    Oh, deary me :rolleyes:


  • #96
    Tyron Jara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭Tyron Jara


    sundy89 wrote: »
    are you in AGS

    Im a reserve. Im not a full timer. But ive been in some incidents were ive felt im going to get a belt here and its not going to be pretty.The full time lads know alot more about it than I would though!

    I believe gardai should be issued with tasers too but I dont think it should be your basis for wanting to join.


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  • #97
    sundy89
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭sundy89


    Tyron Jara wrote: »
    Im a reserve. Im not a full timer. But ive been in some incidents were ive felt im going to get a belt here and its not going to be pretty.The full time lads know alot more about it than I would though!

    I believe gardai should be issued with tasers too but I dont think it should be your basis for wanting to join.
    tw
    I agree with you maybe I was a little forward with my first comment. I want tasers to be introduced because they are non lethal and simply red dotting someone would make them think twice about running.


  • #98
    Harry Bosch.
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Harry Bosch.


    sundy89 wrote: »
    I commend your efforts on duty as a guard and that is good advice and to answer your question yes he got right back out there but it took him a while because he was more mentally scarred than physically. I didnt explain beating very well these guys set rottweilers on him and he only got out of it because of his size if he had been brought to the ground god knows what would have happened to him. Your comment has given me a different perspective on things. Just out of curiosity what do you mean by beaten on duty being the norm, thanks. Also would you personally like the tazer to be introduced.
    I am also a Reserve Sunday. I don't mean that you are going to get beaten every time you work nor that its accepable, its the nature of the job. You are going to get bumped and bruised, slapped, spat at and that's the norm. You will be dealing with a wide range of situations and they do not always end peacefully, from a public order incident to restraining a violent prisioner you will end up wrestling some idiot on the ground. I think that Tasers should be introduced before firearms, but with the current management and the public perception of AGS this will take some time. I think the basics should be improved upon first, uniforms, kit and cars.


  • #99
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    Best piece of equipment is a cool head and an ability to calm a situation, if you are constantly in battles then maybe you are part of the problem!!


  • #100
    Mike87
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Mike87


    trellheim wrote: »
    Jerry McCabe just passed you by then ? Seriously, get out of the thread.

    Jerry McCabe had a revolver and an uzi and he still managed to get himself killed- or did that just pass you by?


    In this thread we are talking about arming *all* AGS with a single pistol. Thats every single AGS at an estimated cost of 10 million a year*. So thats 10 million a year, and you want to justify that bill by demonstrating how one single Garda (who was already armed anyway) was killed almost 20 years ago.

    Would you not think it would be a bit wiser to buy tasers and then invest the remaining few million euros into cars/new uniforms etc.... or something that does actually affect the day-to-day job of AGS in this country.










    *10 million figure was said on the radio this morning.


  • #101
    sundy89
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭sundy89


    Harry Bosch. wrote: »
    I am also a Reserve Sunday. I don't mean that you are going to get beaten every time you work nor that its accepable, its the nature of the job. You are going to get bumped and bruised, slapped, spat at and that's the norm. You will be dealing with a wide range of situations and they do not always end peacefully, from a public order incident to restraining a violent prisioner you will end up wrestling some idiot on the ground. I think that Tasers should be introduced before firearms, but with the current management and the public perception of AGS this will take some time. I think the basics should be improved upon first, uniforms, kit and cars.

    How often do reserves get called out and for how long. I know it may vary but could you give an estimate


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  • #102
    Tyron Jara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭Tyron Jara


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    Best piece of equipment is a cool head and an ability to calm a situation, if you are constantly in battles then maybe you are part of the problem!!

    Your 100% correct!! However some people do not listen to reason due to drugs or alcohol and theres even some who just dont care. Its hard to reason then but if you can it is by far the best thing to do.
    sundy89 wrote: »
    How often do reserves get called out and for how long. I know it may vary but could you give an estimate

    Depends on the station your assigned too. Most reserves I know work the night shifts there units are on.


  • #103
    Harry Bosch.
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Harry Bosch.


    sundy89 wrote: »
    Harry Bosch. wrote: »
    I am also a Reserve Sunday. I don't mean that you are going to get beaten every time you work nor that its accepable, its the nature of the job. You are going to get bumped and bruised, slapped, spat at and that's the norm. You will be dealing with a wide range of situations and they do not always end peacefully, from a public order incident to restraining a violent prisioner you will end up wrestling some idiot on the ground. I think that Tasers should be introduced before firearms, but with the current management and the public perception of AGS this will take some time. I think the basics should be improved upon first, uniforms, kit and cars.
    ,

    How often do reserves get called out and for how long. I know it may vary but could you give an estimate
    You do not get called for regular duty, you'd inform your Sgt when your free to come in and then parade with your unit.Then there would be extra duties like Football, Rugby, concert and events all off which you'd be asked to work. Hours vary but most reserves complete there tour ( Ten hours ). I manage on average a shift a week. If you check out the Reserve forum there's more info there.


  • #104
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Mike87 wrote: »
    Jerry McCabe had a revolver and an uzi and he still managed to get himself killed- or did that just pass you by?

    .

    I find your language most insulting. Jerry(whom I knew as a colleague and friend) did not "get himself killed" !. He was murdered by PIRA cowards who rammed his car, which was guarding pensions being carried in a post office van, and then machine gunned him and his colleague, as they sat in their crippled patrol car, before either could react.

    If you wish to debate the topic, perhaps you should show a small bit of respect for the Force itself, and the risks they face.


  • #105
    Mike87
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Mike87


    goldie fish wrote: »
    I find your language most insulting. Jerry(whom I knew as a colleague and friend) did not "get himself killed" !. He was murdered by PIRA cowards who rammed his car, which was guarding pensions being carried in a post office van, and then machine gunned him and his colleague, as they sat in their crippled patrol car, before either could react.

    If you wish to debate the topic, perhaps you should show a small bit of respect for the Force itself, and the risks they face.

    I have the utmost respect for our AGS and support them any way I can. I dont know why you think I dont have any respect for them. I just dont see why we should spend 10million a year on arming every one of them when there is so many other, more urgently needed, uses for which we could spend that money. I dont hold this view from lack of respect.

    And no offence to yourself, but Im not here to have a war over words on whether or not he was "killed" or "murdered by cowards". At the end of the day, he's dead unfortunately, no matter what way you look at it.


  • #106
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Mike87 wrote: »
    he still managed to get himself killed

    Wow, oh wow, what a shockingly insulting comment. I show more respect to the families of criminals that get killed by gardai.
    Mike87 wrote: »
    In this thread we are talking about arming *all* AGS with a single pistol. Thats every single AGS at an estimated cost of 10 million a year*. So thats 10 million a year, and you want to justify that bill by demonstrating how one single Garda (who was already armed anyway) was killed almost 20 years ago.

    We have demonstrated far more Gardai than that have been shot dead. Add in wounded and it goes up but I guess we know the price you place on our lives now. How much is yours worth?

    Actually don't answer because your first comment deserves nothing more than the ignore list


  • #107
    Hooch
    Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭Hooch


    Mike87 wrote: »
    Jerry McCabe had a revolver and an uzi and he still managed to get himself killed- or did that just pass you by?

    User infracted for this comment.

    Seriously....."managed to get himself killed"!!!!! You come into an ES forum and spout that? Please think about who your audience is. Some of us knew him, (and Ben) worked with him and still help/know his family. Think it lucky you havint been banned.


  • #108
    Mike87
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Mike87


    Eru wrote: »
    We have demonstrated far more Gardai than that have been shot dead. Add in wounded and it goes up but I guess we know the price you place on our lives now.

    Well lets not forget that all those Gardai that you listed were killed about 30 years ago.

    All Im asking (and nobody is answering me) is have any unarmed Gardai been killed on duty in say the last 10 years.


    Another question I asked which also fell onto deaf ears was:

    For any AGS reading this, what part of a Garda's weekly job does he feel incompetent/unsafe carrying out due to not having a firearm (and please dont tell us about how LE is run in other countries- we want to hear about Ireland).


    As for me not having any respect for the Gardai. I have said multiple times on this thread that I have the utmost respect for AGS and the work they do- but apparantly most people here think that asking questions is a sign of disrespect.


  • #109
    Harry Bosch.
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Harry Bosch.


    Pappa Charlie wrote: »
    Best piece of equipment is a cool head and an ability to calm a situation, if you are constantly in battles then maybe you are part of the problem!!
    I agree with your post, but nowhere is it mentioned that people are constantly in battles nor being part of the problem whilst working, i was merely pointing out the worst case scenario and or the situation you can find yourself in, but you are very much correct. I mean no disrespect but sometimes i get more worried about how colleagues, both fulltime and reserves will react then about the actual incident itself. Deputy Patrick Nulty recently asked questions in the House of the Oirachtas about Pepperspray, its use, its cost and about the fact that prior to 2008 members of AGS could conduct there work without it. With fools like this equipment will be taken back rather than added.
    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/05/08/00010.asp


  • #110
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Mike87 wrote: »
    All Im asking (and nobody is answering me) is have any unarmed Gardai been killed on duty in say the last 10 years.
    Do you really not know the answer to that? Can you not do a google search before coming here and sprouting pure bull****?

    Put the uniform on, do our jobs and then comment on the cost of arming compared to the cost of burying a human being otherwise **** off back to the hole you crawled out from.


    (I know mods, I will get the coat but it was worth it)


  • #111
    Mike87
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Mike87


    Eru wrote: »
    Wow, oh wow, what a shockingly insulting comment. I show more respect to the families of criminals that get killed by gardai.

    Sorry to double post, but why do you & others keep insisting I have no respect for Jerry McCabe. I already said, he got killed and its unfortunate. Obviously Id prefer if he was still alive.

    But the fact is, Im not AGS/legal etc.. Im the average layperson who often times uses words such murder/killed interchangably. Perhaps I shouldnt use them interchangably- but lets not jump the gun and assume I have no respect for him or other AGS over it.


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  • #112
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    Mike87 wrote: »
    As for me not having any respect for the Gardai. I have said multiple times on this thread that I have the utmost respect for AGS and the work they do- but apparantly most people here think that asking questions is a sign of disrespect.

    Although not a member of AGS, I think the problem people have was more to do with your comment about Garda McCabe, or more specifically, the "Managed to get himself killed" part.


    Anyway, as for arming AGS right across the board and associated costs etc. I think in terms of costs and training it's completely viable.

    Realistically, they're not gonna go out and buy a pistol for every single member of AGS. You'll have stores in each station, with x amount of pistols and ammo which members would draw as each shift came on.
    Ranges, AGS could build their own ones if the really wanted but there's no need. They could just use ranges owned by the Defence Forces, as already happens.
    Training wise, it's simple enough. Firearms are some of the easiest and safest pieces of equipment to use as long as your instructed properly.
    Plus, I really don't get the whole thing of people being worried about some members of AGS being given firearms. Seriously, between their time in Templemore, then their time spent in a station while still being under instruction, followed by being sent to a unit after training, any psychopath's are gonna struggle to slip through that many nets.

    Personally, I think that the idea of having a force who's first responder to an armed situation or a member who could be caught up in an armed situation, in no position to end it or defend themselves, is gross neglect. Both from a protecting the public viewpoint and a self defence viewpoint. The recent incident of two members of AGS having to hide behind a car(Or was it a wall?) from an armed man, settled it for me. It's unacceptable.


  • #113
    Mike87
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Mike87


    Eru wrote: »
    Do you really not know the answer to that? Can you not do a google search before coming here and sprouting pure bull****?

    Put the uniform on, do our jobs and then comment on the cost of arming compared to the cost of burying a human being otherwise **** off back to the hole you crawled out from.


    (I know mods, I will get the coat but it was worth it)


    Ok... look heres the problem ERU. Im 100% open minded and willing to change my stance on arming all Gardai if someone answers my question.

    what part of a Garda's weekly job does he feel incompetent/unsafe carrying out due to not having a firearm.

    So far, instead of answering my question, Ive been told Im ignorant, told I wouldnt understand, you demonstrated all the Gardai who were killed 30 years ago and now when I ask again you tell me could I not google it, or put on the uniform.

    Well could you not just work with me and help me understand it instead of just getting defensive and asking me what price do I put on a human life?


  • #114
    Mr Simpson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    Are you only looking to hear about Gardai that have been killed? What about the numerous unarmed Gardai that have been shot and injured over the last few years. I've just listed four below, but there have been plenty of other incidents.

    2012

    2009

    2007

    2006


  • #115
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    Harry Bosch. wrote: »
    I agree with your post, but nowhere is it mentioned that people are constantly in battles nor being part of the problem whilst working, i was merely pointing out the worst case scenario and or the situation you can find yourself in, but you are very much correct. I mean no disrespect but sometimes i get more worried about how colleagues, both fulltime and reserves will react then about the actual incident itself. Deputy Patrick Nulty recently asked questions in the House of the Oirachtas about Pepperspray, its use, its cost and about the fact that prior to 2008 members of AGS could conduct there work without it. With fools like this equipment will be taken back rather than added.
    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/05/08/00010.asp[/QUOTE]

    I think some people presume that all Gardai would like to be armed, I have carried both the .38 and UZI in the past and its some responsibility to take on and I was never really at ease with it. I think that the current system of having RSU is excellent. What we need is more of these units. They are very well trained in what they do. The issue is that they may not always be available when needed especially for members in rural areas but its great progress thanks to the inspectorate Kathleen O Toole. I dont believe that every Garda wants to be armed or should be armed. Tazors maybe.


  • #116
    Mike87
    Closed Accounts Posts: 280 ✭✭Mike87


    mmcn90 wrote: »
    Are you only looking to hear about Gardai that have been killed? What about the numerous unarmed Gardai that have been shot and injured over the last few years. I've just listed four below, but there have been plenty of other incidents.

    2012

    2009

    2007

    2006

    We've already discussed them. Though if your an actual Garda feel free to answer the question in my last post.


  • #117
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    Mike87 wrote: »
    We've already discussed them. Though if your an actual Garda feel free to answer the question in my last post.

    I think given your previous comment you dont deserve a reply!


  • #118
    Mr Simpson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,332 ✭✭✭Mr Simpson


    Mike87 wrote: »
    We've already discussed them. Though if your an actual Garda feel free to answer the question in my last post.

    I'm not a Garda, nor did I ever claim to be. Any of the incidences I listed could very easily have ended in the death of the members involved, therefore I see them as no different to listing where Gardai have been killed and I don't understand why you do.


  • #119
    Harry Bosch.
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Harry Bosch.


    I really have to wonder at peoples reaction to members of AGS being armed and if/how and why it effects them. What are their genuine reasons, have they a grudge, have they had negitive dealings with members and the organisation as a whole, what have they really to fear? I don't accept cost as an answer. The Stabvest, the ASP and Peppryspray courses where rolled out with very little problems and money was found! The ordinary law abiding member of the public does not know nor care what you have or have not got on your belt, He dials the station/ 999 and expects service, will he turn away uniformed ARMED guards? He wil not, he will want the situation dealth with the best it can and in a professional manner. Yes, some if not all Police uniforms can look intimidating and thats for a reason but its not the boy scouts. The ordinary Law abidiing citizen who has no day to day dealings with AGS, i personally think will not be put out, in fact i will say he/she will want the best kit for its fellow citizens, the ones who took an oath to uphold the law, constitution and to protect its citizens. Society and times are changing, whether we like it or not..


  • #120
    Pappa Charlie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 853 ✭✭✭Pappa Charlie


    Harry Bosch. wrote: »
    I really have to wonder at peoples reaction to members of AGS being armed and if/how and why it effects them. What are their genuine reasons, have they a grudge, have they had negitive dealings with members and the organisation as a whole, what have they really to fear? I don't accept cost as an answer. The Stabvest, the ASP and Peppryspray courses where rolled out with very little problems and money was found! The ordinary law abiding member of the public does not know nor care what you have or have not got on your belt, He dials the station/ 999 and expects service, will he turn away uniformed ARMED guards? He wil not, he will want the situation dealth with the best it can and in a professional manner. Yes, some if not all Police uniforms can look intimidating and thats for a reason but its not the boy scouts. The ordinary Law abidiing citizen who has no day to day dealings with AGS, i personally think will not be put out, in fact i will say he/she will want the best kit for its fellow citizens, the ones who took an oath to uphold the law, constitution and to protect its citizens. Society and times are changing, whether we like it or not..

    I disagree with you on that one, I have always found that when abroad in countries with armed police that they are less approchable to the public and have noted the lack of interaction with the public. An unarmed policeman or woman says alot about your country. While its not perfect I think we should hold onto it as long as we can.


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  • #121
    Harry Bosch.
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Harry Bosch.


    I really have to wonder at peoples reaction to members of AGS being armed and if/how and why it effects them. What are their genuine reasons, have they a grudge, have they had negitive dealings with members and the organisation as a whole, what have they really to fear? I don't accept cost as an answer. The Stabvest, the ASP and Peppryspray courses where rolled out with very little problems and money was found! The ordinary law abiding member of the public does not know nor care what you have or have not got on your belt, He dials the station/ 999 and expects service, will he turn away uniformed ARMED guards? He wil not, he will want the situation dealth with the best it can and in a professional manner. Yes, some if not all Police uniforms can look intimidating and thats for a reason but its not the boy scouts. The ordinary Law abidiing citizen who has no day to day dealings with AGS, i personally think will not be put out, in fact i will say he/she will want the best kit for its fellow citizens, the ones who took an oath to uphold the law, constitution and to protect its citizens. Society and times are changing, whether we like it or not..


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