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Martin McGuinness to be named as Sinn Féins candidate for the Presidential Election?

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Comments

  • #362
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Correct me if I am wrong Liam but what I understood from what he said was that planting bombs is not a part of being a true republican is.

    This is debatable in the Irish context however as planting bombs is (by now) synonymous with 'Irish republicanism' - and, of course, 'Marty' is a part of that tradition. However, Pearse, Connolly, Tom Barry and Wolfe Tone didn't plant bombs; but using their names in some sort of sweeping generalisation of two hundred years of political ideas concerning Irish self-determination and justifiable means of achieving it is going to produce some... inconsistencies.

    All this Marty is just someone planting bombs for the fun of it idea really isnt in context with what was going on at the time. There was massive discimination in the north at the time and violence was always going to happen.


  • #363
    paky
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭paky


    sparkling sea wrote: »
    Have to admit I feel the same when you are talking about the Republic of Ireland - the country that I love.

    Do you seriouly think that most Irish people would actually want to change it - just take a look at the votes SF gets in the Republic as an indicator - people have enoungh to worry about without some outdated historical dead project being rehashed over and over,

    And why would any Northern Irish person in their right mind want to come near us - we are virtually peasants again - these people have their own cultural heartache and pain and you expect them to want to take on ours as well. Seriously you need to get real here - there is nothing to suggest that the majority in either country wants or even cares about land anymore

    the people of the six counties are not going to determine the outcome of a united ireland. its individuals like martin mcguinness who will determine that


  • #364
    gumtree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17 ✭gumtree


    You didnt see martin complain about the vote system, He walked it from outside the country.

    David Norris couldnt get through b4 anything broke and yet he is still been a drama queen


  • #365
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    All this Marty is just someone planting bombs for the fun of it idea really isnt in context with what was going on at the time. There was massive discimination in the north at the time and violence was always going to happen.

    Then - if you absolutely must resort to violence - target the violence at the perpetrators of the discrimination; don't murder innocent people.


  • #366
    Foghladh
    Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭Foghladh


    paky wrote: »
    the people of the six counties are not going to determine the outcome of a united ireland. its individuals like martin mcguinness who will determine that

    That sounds like a logical statement alright


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  • #367
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Then - if you absolutely must resort to violence - target the violence at the perpetrators of the discrimination; don't murder innocent people.

    I agree they should have targetted the loyalist mobs, the orange order and the government of northern ireland so because there was very few innocent people in power in the north at the time.


  • #368
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Foghladh wrote: »
    That sounds like a logical statement alright

    I presume you're being sarcastic ? After all, the GFA allows for the people of the six counties to decide their own fate, which means that the absolute reverse of that statement is actually the fact of the matter ?


  • #369
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I agree they should have targetted the loyalist mobs, the orange order and the government of northern ireland so because there was very few innocent people in power in the north at the time.

    Yup. I wouldn't have completely condoned it, but I would have understood it and accepted it in the same way as I would accept an Iraqi person fighting back against the US & UK troops following the invasion of their country.

    But an Iraqi who plants a bomb in a shopping centre and blows up his own countrymen, not caring who they are or what "side" they might be on ?

    That is where I lose all respect for someone.

    It's like punching your wife and kids because your boss pissed you off.


  • #370
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Yup. I wouldn't have completely condoned it, but I would have understood it and accepted it in the same way as I would accept an Iraqi person fighting back against the US & UK troops following the invasion of their country.

    But an Iraqi who plants a bomb in a shopping centre and blows up his own countrymen, not caring who they are or what "side" they might be on ?

    That is where I lose all respect for someone.

    It's like punching your wife and kids because your boss pissed you off.

    It is indeed the tactics they used were that of thugs and not an army in a lot of instances. By the way im not saying they were soley justified in attacking to acheive independence from the uk. Im saying they were right to counter an orange discrimitory state.


  • #371
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    It is indeed the tactics they used were that of thugs and not an army in a lot of instances. By the way im not saying they were soley justified in attacking to acheive independence from the uk. Im saying they were right to counter an orange discrimitory state.

    No argument here on either point.


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  • #372
    blahfckingblah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭blahfckingblah


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Correct me if I am wrong Liam but what I understood from what he said was that planting bombs is not a part of being a true republican is.

    This is debatable in the Irish context however as planting bombs is (by now) synonymous with 'Irish republicanism' - and, of course, 'Marty' is a part of that tradition. However, Pearse, Connolly, Tom Barry and Wolfe Tone didn't plant bombs; but using their names in some sort of sweeping generalisation of two hundred years of political ideas concerning Irish self-determination and justifiable means of achieving it is going to produce some... inconsistencies.
    Bomb and bullet people still die the only difference is the means end goal remains.


  • #373
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    blahfckingblah wrote: »
    Bomb and bullet people still die the only difference is the means end goal remains.

    Bullet kills the single person that it's aimed at, and the person shooting needs to be there.

    Bomb kills and maims 100 people doing their shopping with their kids, while the thugs that planted it are sitting at home watching TV.

    Yeah, they're the same thing alright. :rolleyes:


  • #374
    blahfckingblah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭blahfckingblah


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Bullet kills the single person that it's aimed at, and the person shooting needs to be there.

    Bomb kills and maims 100 people doing their shopping with their kids, while the thugs that planted it are sitting at home watching TV.

    Yeah, they're the same thing alright. :rolleyes:
    do you think the IRA of old wouldnt have used the tactics of the PIRA had they access to them? Because i would be doubtful


  • #375
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    paky wrote: »
    the people of the six counties are not going to determine the outcome of a united ireland. its individuals like martin mcguinness who will determine that

    What you think he can terrify and dictate in the Republic like he did in Northern Ireland - a new Gaddafi for the proleteriat in the Republic don't think so.


  • #376
    Foghladh
    Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭Foghladh


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    I presume you're being sarcastic ? After all, the GFA allows for the people of the six counties to decide their own fate, which means that the absolute reverse of that statement is actually the fact of the matter ?


    I thought sarcasm dripped off every word! I'll lower my priciples and revert to some 'rolly eyes' the next time, much as it makes me feel dirty


  • #377
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    blahfckingblah wrote: »
    do you think the IRA of old wouldnt have used the tactics of the PIRA had they access to them? Because i would be doubtful
    In waht way did they not have access to these tactics ?


  • #378
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    All this Marty is just someone planting bombs for the fun of it idea really isnt in context with what was going on at the time. There was massive discimination in the north at the time and violence was always going to happen.

    Don't know whether he was doing for fun, for personal gain, or for the sake of ideology. It's kind of irrelevant, isn't it?

    In the context, sectarian violence was developing in quite an unpleasant manner whereby civilians on both sides were being bombed, generally in retaliation for some former atrocity. Martin was engaged in the same sort of military endeavours as Bloody Friday, presumably in revenge for Bloody Sunday.


  • #379
    blahfckingblah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭blahfckingblah


    anymore wrote: »
    In waht way did they not have access to these tactics ?
    radio controled bombs, phones to call in coded warnings etc.


  • #380
    Foghladh
    Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭Foghladh


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I agree they should have targetted the loyalist mobs, the orange order and the government of northern ireland so because there was very few innocent people in power in the north at the time.
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Yup. I wouldn't have completely condoned it, but I would have understood it and accepted it in the same way as I would accept an Iraqi person fighting back against the US & UK troops following the invasion of their country.

    But an Iraqi who plants a bomb in a shopping centre and blows up his own countrymen, not caring who they are or what "side" they might be on ?

    That is where I lose all respect for someone.

    It's like punching your wife and kids because your boss pissed you off.


    So between you, you've condoned or accepted the targeting of loyalist mobs and, what, uniformed personnel? Sweet Jesus! What constitutes a mob exactly? They tend to be mobs of civilians as a rule.


  • #381
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    The SDLP had the majority Republican and Nationalist support until the late 90's, after the GFA. Really, from when SF decided to start fielding candidates, the SDLP and peaceful means was the majority opinion, only after the GFA did SF become the biggest party. People mightn't like it, but the majority always and still do support peaceful campaigning. Once SF became part of "normal" politics their support grew.

    1916 and the Civil War is a bit more complicated. Dissatisfaction with Home Rule and the progress of political means and changes to the voting system being big factors. In the North, politics was shown to work, the reverse between 1916 and 21.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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  • #382
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    Einhard wrote: »
    A what now?

    Fighting against oppression is one thing; leaving bombs in pubs and on streets is another thing entirely.

    Probably getting a tad off topic on this though.

    No warning bombing of pubs was a Protestant speciality.


  • #383
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Foghladh wrote: »
    So between you, you've condoned or accepted the targeting of loyalist mobs and, what, uniformed personnel? Sweet Jesus! What constitutes a mob exactly? They tend to be mobs of civilians as a rule.

    Nope - never condoned it, if you read my post.

    And if a "civilian" is in a mob and threatening direct violence, yes, despite being a pacifist I will acknowledge someone's right to defend themselves.

    An example would be the mob in London earlier this year - anyone was perfectly entitled to thump the crap out of them to defend their property - and selves - from being attacked.

    Being a civilian doesn't preclude someone from not being "innocent" - most drug-dealers, thugs and criminals are indeed civilians.

    It also doesn't even need to be a mob.....in my eyes, someone should be entitled to do that if a single thug breaks into their house.

    But this is getting off the point, because they didn't target perpetrators.


  • #384
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    C'mon lads, lets make a heroic effort to get this back on topic, I'll kick us off:


    SF have 17 Oireachtas members so he needs 3 more to get him over the line. Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, previously backed Norris) has said he will back MMG. Luke 'Ming' Flanagan also a former Norris acolyte has also said he will back MMG. Kerry South TDs Tom Fleming and Michael Healy-Rae have also backed McGuinness.


  • #385
    anymore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,672 ✭✭✭anymore


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    C'mon lads, lets make a heroic effort to get this back on topic, I'll kick us off:


    SF have 17 Oireachtas members so he needs 3 more to get him over the line. Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, previously backed Norris) has said he will back MMG. Luke 'Ming' Flanagan also a former Norris acolyte has also said he will back MMG. Kerry South TDs Tom Fleming and Michael Healy-Rae have also backed McGuinness.
    So that means he is over the line !


  • #386
    Foghladh
    Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭Foghladh


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    C'mon lads, lets make a heroic effort to get this back on topic, I'll kick us off:


    SF have 17 Oireachtas members so he needs 3 more to get him over the line. Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, previously backed Norris) has said he will back MMG. Luke 'Ming' Flanagan also a former Norris acolyte has also said he will back MMG. Kerry South TDs Tom Fleming and Michael Healy-Rae have also backed McGuinness.


    17??


  • #387
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Foghladh wrote: »
    17??
    Yeah, SF have 14 in the Dáil, then some senators, with the support of the 4 independents he has 21 names backing him.


  • #388
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users Posts: 14,989 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    Foghladh wrote: »
    17??

    Yes 17, 14 TDs and 3 Senators


  • #389
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    anymore wrote: »
    So that means he is over the line !
    Indeed, it just needs to be rubber-stamped tomorrow by the AC.


  • #390
    Foghladh
    Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭Foghladh


    Wolfe Tone wrote: »
    Yeah, SF have 14 in the Dáil, then some senators, with the support of the 4 independents he has 21 names backing him.


    Damned senators :o


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  • #391
    crucamim
    Registered Users Posts: 897 ✭✭✭crucamim


    Liam Byrne wrote: »

    - target the violence at the perpetrators of the discrimination; don't murder innocent people.

    Well said, sir. You are a man after my own heart. The British soldiers in Northern Ireland were innocent. They did not gerrymander or discriminate against Catholics. If the IRA had left them alone, the Brits would have been all right. And I never saw any justification for IRA activity on the British mainland or in Eire.

    Only a minority of the Protestants of Northern Ireland were innocent. From 1921, in election after election, they gave massive support to Orange tyrants -- despite the tyrants openly boasting about their exploits. One of the Unionist politicans complained "Gerrymandering Tyrone took me two years of hard work". [He thought that he had not received enough creidt for his work in oppressing Catholics.] The first Unionist Party election I read was in the early sixties. I remember it well.

    "Voters of St Georges. Do you know that Armstrong, Armstrong and Jones, the three Official Unionist candidates employ over sixty people and have NEVER employed a Roman Catholic. Can the same be said about the three Unofficial Unionist candidates?"

    This anti-Catholic voting behaviour of the Protestants reached a new low in 1979 in the first direct elections to the European Parliament. Paisley received more first preference votes than all the other Protestant candidates combined. And that in the face for competition from confirmed anti-Catholic bigots like Harry West and Jim Kilfeather. And to add insult to injury, an editiorial in the Belfast Telegraph described the electoral victories of Ian Paisley and John Hume as a victory "for the extremes." John Hume an extreme???? The next time Catholics had an opportunity to vote, they voted for Bobby Sands. Waging war with a ballot paper is a game two sides can play.

    I agree with you. Catholic violence should have been directed only at those who were committing aggression against Catholics. I apologise for misunderstanding your earlier posts on this and other threads.


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