rowa wrote: »

A f**ked up application is a service thats faulty

It might be a poor level of service, but as far as the small claims court is concerned, you did not pay a specific amount of money at a specific time to a specific person for that specific service, so it's not in their bailiwick. (Yes, you pay the Gardai's wages with your taxes very indirectly, but that doesn't count for the court's purposes).

BattleCorp wrote: »

Yes, you do pay a specific amount (€80) to a specific representative of An Gardaí, at a specific time (when the service has been completed satisfactorily) for a specific service (upon granting of the licence).

And if they take your licence fee and never issue the licence, you might have a point; but you pay the fee after applying and being granted the licence. You don't pay the super to consider your application (and trying would be illegal ).

Are the two cases not pretty similar?

Nope.

BattleCorp wrote: »

You usually pay a plumber/electrician/mechanic after they do the job for you and you can take action against them if they stuff things up.

Maybe I'm thick but if the Super/Chief Super starts the job and buggers it up, seems similar to me.

Legally, you are not paying the super for the licence application process; you're paying the state a fee for the privilege of having the licence. So the job and the payment are not linked (seriously, you'd have to track the money into the exchequer and out in to the garda budget and then finally to his paypacket and you might as well throw a glass of water into the ocean and then find what household tap it comes out of).

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The small claims only handles goods and services that are faulty.

the system is faulty as well we know

Well that was a day,with the Gods smiling on the Grizz.:D
This case was due to be heard before a newbie judge to the firearms scene in the DC. There had been a change of judges in the last minute and the famous Jude Lucey of the [to some] infamous judegement of 2013 in Dublin was present and handling my case.:eek::D

THAT kind of put a damper on the state and AGS as the good judge kind of stated his position from the outset with him saying that he considerd these cases to be not much different in technical aspects and that unless the State could provide any sort of info or newness to their defence they would be on a hiding onto nothing [saying that in legal terms of course.]

Much to ing and froing between counsels ensued for the next hour or so,while we entertained ourselves with listening to plenty of financial distress cases of who owed the local credit union how much.Until it was the whole gang of us back in the court room .

The state launched a literal kamikazee attack on us,trying to say that I put in my appeal too early after the 90 days had elapsed,and that the CS hadnt had time to reflect on it maturely,due to family breverement and other duties and that he hadnt met me in person and that they didnt know where I shoot with the handgun or how often.

Counsel responded that he had 90 days and by automaticly not responding he had refused so whats his problem?The LAW states what he must do and what I must do to appeal.We cant go and arbitarily decide we need more time to reflect our positions or decisions if we are busted for speeding or no tax before we pay our fines.He had his time,he had three deferals in the DC to ask for this info which he never asked for until today and was given them within 10 secs flat.
Along with any other comps I had shot out of the club in the Munster area.
All could have been looked up by AGS on the NASRPC website had they wanted to.
[So keep your club attendance records up to date folks!]

The Judge was getting somewhat irked by the States approach to this and made the point that if someone is applying for a liscense for a pistol surely they are shooting it on a range and all the AGS need to do is in the 90 days ASK for this info should they need it off the applicant and that while he utterly sympathised with the Supers and Cheifs being busy with other more important matters of crime prevention that being caught by time from the appealent putting in their appeals after 90 days is part and parcel,but not leaving it on the long finger,or not communicating with the appelant either for this info.

The State then tried to make a big deal that I had met the Cheif on the street in Dec and that he had extended an invitation to meet me,but I hadnt availed of it]

TWO reasons for that[1] I had just met a CS from the GSOC responding to my complaint the day before who was ensconsed in his office in Henry st going thru my files and all revelant files on my past applications with a fine tooth comb,and that I had by chance met the CS in O Connell st the previous day and asked him could we have a chat over coffee about the situation and what was his major problem with me,glocks or semi rifles?? Would he have responded with speed and vigour if there wasnt a GSOC man in his office ??
2] My solicitor was unable to accompany me and advised me NOT to go as the CS had refused automatically within the 90 day period....hey...I'm paying these guys for their legal experiance...Am I going to NOT heed it???
Also my legal team felt that was a below the belt hit the State Solicitor bringing this up aboutthe GSOC complaint.As it was irrrevelant to the matter at hand.

Anyways ,up to the stand with me and give evidence of experiance of shooting and what not.Seemingly I was most impressive in the box,I didnt notice it as in the box you suddenly start getting a very dry throat and time sloooowwwsss dowwwnnn reallly a lot.:eek:
Experiance, ?more than enough
Competence? No question
Only type of pistol suitable? Without a doubt under current legislation as I am weded to it
Security ?No problem
Criminal record? Nope
Using it?Monthly,or was until the delay.


Bottom line was the Judge in his sumation was very good in he said himself he didnt like handguns personally and is a shotgun man himself or was,as he pointed out so too was the state solicitor,but he said its not for him or AGS or others to decide whats others pleasure or poison in shooting.He has to deal with the fact that there are CF handguns in this country and that people are entitled to liscense them and if they are refused have no other option but to appeal to the DC. He said it is up to the state to decide whether these guns should exist amongst us or not,and that we are a dying breed and that proably it will be one of us at 98 as the last CF pistol owner in the DC in oh..2060 doing this yet again.
Also that it was ridicilous that people who were granted their liscenses before in a DC should have to continously re apply every 3 years because the CS were just not going to play ball on their applications unless there was some very new developments in their positions .

COSTS
Ok heads up! This entire matter is under review in the high court and IF we win this HC case costs could be awarded retrospectively under a HC appeal. This means that if you went to the DC and were granted your liscense you could put in for your lawyers costs,storage,range fees lost,trauma and stress caused by all this to your sensitive soul.Also this is for ALL the cases you were involved in and won!
So there is a potential for army deafness type conveyor belt of claims heading towards the state IF we win this HC case.:cool:
Anyways my counsel stuck in for it,and it was refused with a smile by Judge Lucey.

Anyways thats pretty much it,and I got chatting to the State team when this was all over,as they come over and congratulate us for winning..As if we are all here for the craic of it and can waste our own money like taxpayers money.:(
We are now all on first name basis down here in Limerick.:pac:
The state is in agreement on the technical level of ballistics and firearms policy unit that this is farsical now and that while we disagree on technical things [I was asking do they consider the GSG 1911 .22 a restricted pistol They Do! Military look,10 shot mag blah,blah:rolleyes:] Courts arent the place to be discussing it. They would also like to see something like the FCP back in action,as they said they are "Civil servants here to help the public.":eek::eek:
[That reminds me of the T shirt with the famous pic of the raid on the Waco complex with the ATF SWAT storming the window with the caption
"I'm from the Govt,I'm here to help!".:rolleyes:]
Not on that extremis I hope,but I think you get the jist of what I'm saying. Govt help....???:eek:

So bottom line ...Glock Rematch ...TKO to Grizzly 45! Be intresting to see how long it will take to have my grant notice in my paw!

Round 4 .. Semi auto modular sporting rifle...90 days decision time up in 4 days time.
Meeting the CS tomrrow for hopefully a friendly chat over coffee and donuts
Maybe we can avoid this court rematch and compromise to an agreement ,but I'm doubtful but live in hope as it is always better to jaw jaw than war war,but sometimes you do have to go to Ultima Ratio [The final option] whether you like it or not in this life.

Again thanks to my exellent legal team, and my expert witnesses you know who you are,and wish to remain in the shadows,Knockon,for being there for a friendly face and Gunhappy.ie who was in spirit.As well as the Limerick crew of handguners and semi rifle lads who couldnt make it today.Much appreciated moral support lads:).Last and not by any means least my Mum who came down to see this whole show in action for herself.Thanks Mum ,couldnt have done without you either.:D

So much for the Oscar speech I'll shut up now.Am off for a well deserved pint.
Grizzly 45

Good man Grizz! Hope things go easier with the MSR.

Thanks.Yeah,they tried THAT malarkey too with us and got nowhere fast.:rolleyes:
Apart from delaying unnecessarily the issueing by 7 weeks.

Had an intresting interview with the CS in Limerick today.We we had as the politicans say a" full ,frank and open exchange of views."[Whether that gets me my rifle granted is another story..]

HEADS UP!!!!
This is proably going to be their next gripe. PROVE that you shot your firearm on the range when you were there. IOW logging in proably wont be good enough anymore ,you will have to somehow prove that you used the gun there on that particular date too.:mad::mad:
This is what the CS and state solicitor for Limerick tried to infer yesterday as well when I slapped down all my range times to them. Yes I was there ,but could I prove I shot the 9mm then???This would have to be researched,and enquiries made ,etc.IOW stall out for time again.. Despite the RO and organiser of the comps being present to answer those points for them. I also had downloaded my comps scores from other ranges around Munster so their arguement was utterly diminished and Judge Lucey was having none of this either.
So watch this space as a RO or comp organiser as I reckon this will be the next bit of paperwork to head our ways.:mad:

ONE"positive"[???] message that is coming across is that the AGS,us shooters and our organisations and the DOJ do need to sit down and talk to each other without any malarkey from any party.
It seems everyone is sick to death of this catastrophic firearms legislation .I've heard two judges now in the Limerick DC decscribe it as an utter mess that helps no one.
Our two friends in Garda ballistics and FPU stated the same post court verdict yesterday and said they are fed up trying to look at over 1200 different types of new firearms PA that come to their attention and applying the Olympic suitability rules to each one.As they said when I was disagreeing with their idea that a GSG 1911 is restricted.That while we were disagreeing on technicalities,we were doing it outside a DC court,and discussing tech stuff on how many angels can dance on a pin head...the inside of a DC isnt the place to do so.
But we are where we are and until someone makes a first move to get a "FCP mk 2" going we are going to be looking at the zero option for everyone of doing the DC court shuffle,as everyone is agreeing it seems it is an either or situation with no in between .
Is there a sea change on the way ?And for once that it might be for the better for us after all the turmoil in the DOJ/AGS/Govt from this year??
Would like to think so,but if you have been kicked so many times in the ass,how do you trust the ass kicker??

Grant notice in this AMs post.Was getting twitchy wondering was there now something else up someones sleeve with the delay.Apprently 7/10 is about now the working norm for this to issue according to the FPU.
Off to the post office after this note.:D
This concludes another sorry tale and proably a start of another as my modular sporting rifle is now due as well,and have given the CS until June 10th to get his reports together for his decision on a my modular sporting rifle..

This is really a sad and stupid way of doing things that in the long run helps no one bar lawyers and leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth as well as ill feeling and folks out of sorts with GSOC investigations hanging over them and other bother and hassle for all.:(
Seriously at this stage it should be a given that once you have done the DC route twice it should be a given that the applicant has demonstrated more than enough comittment to their sport and are not doing this on a whim and has demonstrated good and sufficent reason in aces and spades to all.Also ,as Sparks has pointed out many a time we do need to be able to sit and talk with the opposition,just as much as they do with us.But we are where we are,and until this changes I and others willbe doing the DC shuffle again this and in 3 years again.:(

Three here as you know yourself Knockon....We know of two others in the same district that got the same phoney baloney responses and of another poster here with one pending on his CS down Cork way.
Am beginning to wonder now is GSOC ;
1] Not wanting to touch these cases with 30 foot barge poles.
2] Too a hot a potato for the much vaunted GSOC "corrupt copper" hunters?
[once past a certain rank??]
3] A large bucket of whitewash available for these cases?

Would be intrested to hear via PM from folks that have had complaints in RE firearms to GSOC and the response they have had.

Reckon AC Twomey is also doing SFA to actually puch these investigations too.[On good account he is a desk bound Garda that has never walked a beat in his entire career]But every cloud has a thunderstorm in it...We now have at least SIX cases in Limerick that have been whitewashed by GSOC and how many others about the country that we dont know about??We can safely say this is a whitewash job by GSOC and as a community can now lobby to say we have no faith in GSOC dealing with any firearms complaints openly ,transparently or efficently.You have been dealing with this complaint for over a year now??
This is now another political problem,how do we ask for an investigsation into GSOC??