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IrelandOffline meet Eircom

  • 19-07-2001 10:43pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭


    Meeting at Eircom corporate office, July 19, 2001

    Attendance:
    IrelandOffline:
    Martin Harran
    Elana Kehoe
    David Long

    Eircom:
    Pat Galvin - Director Regulatory Affairs, Eircom Plc.
    Paul Walsh - Head of Pricing, Eircom Plc.
    Majella Fitzpatrick - PR Manager, Eircom Plc.
    Joe Styles - Regulatory Affairs, Eircom Plc.

    Pat Galvin explained that Eircom had not replied to our original letter of 16
    June as it did not arrive until the 16th of July, and he showed us the envelope!

    FRIACO

    We had a lengthy discussion on FRIACO. In reply to why Eircom hasn't come
    out with a flat-rate package, Pat brought up the point that eircom.net is
    separate from Eircom, and if Eircom.net was to supply an unmetered
    package, the cost to them would be the same as any other ISP. It has to be
    the same pricing. If Eircom subsidised flat rate access to eircom.net or if
    eircom.net supplied a package at a loss, they would be heavily penalized.
    Eircom is "the most regulated telecoms company in Europe" and the "only
    regulated telecom company in Ireland", according to Pat Galvin. Currently, the
    EU is pushing broadband more than FRIACO via directives issued from
    Brussels as the EU see getting broadband to be more of a priority at this
    stage.

    He went on to add that Eircom have been considering unmetered packages
    since 1997. When Esat however introduced their SNL package in 1999,
    Eircom did not believe that a single unlimited package was economically
    viable and therefore could not compete against it. Eircom believe that single
    packages on any form of Internet access are not the answer. Packages must
    be based on commercial reality, and geared to suit different user groups. He
    explained that there are ongoing discussions with the OLOs to overcome
    FRIACO problems.

    There are a number of problems that impact the offering of flat rate services:

    Operational capacity;
    Capacity-based charging;
    Volume of IP-based traffic (on lines shared with voice traffic).

    There are current discussions going on with the OLO's to overcome these
    issues. In his opinion, FRIACO could be introduced by the end of 2001, if two
    conditions are met: if it is a commercially viable business case for Eircom; and
    if the very significant operational and network capacity issues are resolved.

    Pat Galvin went on to explain in detail some of the issues affecting Eircom at
    the moment. In particular, the regulations forcing them to provide Internet
    access on their voice network, as opposed to development of a separate data
    network. There is also a drive by the ODTR to bring costs down.

    We ourselves made the point that the feedback from our members indicates
    that availability is more prevalent as an issue in comparison to concerns of
    pricing.


    LLU

    Pat Galvin stated that while Eircom will accept criticism in other areas, they
    feel that the local loop issue has been blown out of proportion. Eircom put
    substantial resources and expertise into having the local loop unbundled by
    January 1 2001, and met the goal. Prior to January 1, fourteen OLO's were
    pressuring for local loop unbundling. After unbundling took place on January
    1 2001, thirteen of the initial fourteen OLO's retracted their interest in making
    use of the unbundled local loop.

    Although Eircom are still disputing the deregulated price set by the ODTR, the
    mechanics of local loop unbundling are in place. As stated by Pat, it is up to
    the OLO's to avail of it.


    Broadband

    Concerning trial usage of xDSL broadband technology since 1997, Eircom
    explained that the continuing evolution of xDSL technologies necessitated
    trials on an ongoing basis. They confirmed that September 28, 2001, is the
    scheduled launch date for their ADSL product in the Dublin area . Prices for
    the service will be submitted to the ODTR next week, and should be in the
    public domain very shortly thereafter. They could not give any time scale for a
    roll out beyond the trial exchanges.

    As they roll their version out commercially, they are required to make it
    available to other OLO's as a wholesale product. Paul Walsh, head of pricing
    at Eircom, stated that different flavours of xDSL can be rolled out by the
    different operators, provided those OLO's supply their own equipment at the
    exchanges.

    IrelandOffline raised user concerns on possible download limitations, often
    termed as "capping", in the supply of broadband services. Paul Walsh replied
    that the xDSL service supplied by each individual ISP will be under the control
    of that ISP - it will be up to each provider to decide what levels of limitation will
    be placed on the packages they offer. Such packages could be tiered or
    unlimited examples.

    We also spoke of the state of the present network, including the use of DACS
    boxes. Generally, DACS boxes were more of an issue in rural areas,
    according to Eircom. Pat Galvin acknowledged that there is no ready-made
    answer for this problem; it will definitely involve capital expenditure, but this
    will have to be judged on levels of demand.


    Other Issues

    The Eircom representatives made a strong case that the debate for availability
    of Internet access to date has focused almost entirely on the supply side and
    that more emphasis should be placed on developing the demand side. At this
    point we raised the comments by Anne Corcoran in the Irish Times regarding
    lack of demand. They said that her remarks were made out of context and
    that not only do Eircom recognise that demand that is already there, the want
    to encourage it even more.

    We asked if Eircom would commit themselves to participation in our seminar
    in August. Pat responded that Eircom would be very willing to participate in
    any forum which is designed to take the debate forward in a constructive
    manner. Provided that Eircom is confident the seminar is structured in a
    positive way, they will be very happy to take part.

    Taking Eircom's point that Eircom and Eircom.net are separate organisations
    we have asked to meet with Eircom.net as an ISP, and they will arrange this
    for us.

    Conclusion

    In our opinion, after meeting with Eircom, they are dealing with all Internet
    access issues on a strictly commercial basis. We would worry that this could
    prolong the timescale for things like FRIACO and nationwide roll out of
    broadband.

    At the same time, we have to recognise that Eircom is now a commercial
    operation that has to answer to its shareholders and that there is possibly too
    much focus on regulated pricing and not enough on making services
    commercially viable.

    We also feel that the fact that Eircom is so highly regulated makes some
    things more difficult for them than for OLO's. One case in point is LLU – it
    seems to us that Eircom has been to some extent used by OLO's as a
    convenient scapegoat for their own failure to take advantage of LLU.

    As a user group, we must continue to put pressure on Eircom but we must not
    fall into the trap of seeing it all as Eircom's fault, we must keep pressure on all
    the players to adopt sensible negotiating tactics with Eircom.


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Thanks for the info..and the fight goes on :-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Very informative, thank you.

    The comments on scapegoating are interesting:
    1. IOL limited the no-limits service of their own accord.

    2. The precendent for comms services must be set by the largest company; in this case, Eircom. If they introduce a 1GB uncharged cap for ADSL, and then charge after it, it will set precedent for other companies to do the same.

    Say, if it costs Eircom £30 for this, and the subscriber pays £50. A Competitor can charge £40 and get the business from the consumer, who still gets a ****ty deal.

    There is no way in hell I will pay extra for over 1GB data transfers; it would require appalling security measures as if your machine is online all the time (as it would be, effectively), it is rife for Back Orifice style apps to basically run whatever from your connection. Maybe I'm paranoid though.

    Perhaps an unlimited service at say £60 a month, with competition with a similarly uncapped service eventually helping to drive down the price, and costs as the technology matures.

    One thing I don't understand when they refer to bandwidth costs is the fact that almost everyone I know who has a home net connection uses a "free" service, basically meaning that the pay for the local calls. Where does the money come to support this service (it's odd that it's Ireland of all places that anybody with a comp and a modem can get online if they pay for the local call charge, no subscription nonsense).

    I dial into Eircom.not as my No Limits is gone now - I pay only the local call charge. If as, the remark made above implied, Eircom and eircom.net are separate business entities, how can eircom.net even function as they get zero money in subs, so they must be subsidized by daddy Eircom. In essence, it basically means that Eircom can charge a minimum charge for ever minute you use the bandwitdh, are the sole people capable of doing do, and they have little reason to change this profitable status.

    Except:
    1. EU legislation
    2. Maintaining free ISPs must cost them a lot - has someone ever decided to simply not provide free eircom.net ISPs, up call charges for the other non-eircom ones, and charge a suitable subscription (£10 a month?) to all the people who effectively pay nothing, as the increased revenue would surely cover broadband costs if it was generally accepted that to get online anywhere here you should pay a subscription?

    AM I making sense or is this already obvious....... smile.gif?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,608 ✭✭✭✭sceptre


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Red Moose:
    One thing I don't understand when they refer to bandwidth costs is the fact that almost everyone I know who has a home net connection uses a "free" service, basically meaning that the pay for the local calls. Where does the money come to support this service (it's odd that it's Ireland of all places that anybody with a comp and a modem can get online if they pay for the local call charge, no subscription nonsense).

    I dial into Eircom.not as my No Limits is gone now - I pay only the local call charge. If as, the remark made above implied, Eircom and eircom.net are separate business entities, how can eircom.net even function as they get zero money in subs, so they must be subsidized by daddy Eircom. In essence, it basically means that Eircom can charge a minimum charge for ever minute you use the bandwitdh, are the sole people capable of doing do, and they have little reason to change this profitable status.
    </font>

    This "pay per minute with no sub" model is based on the one first intruduced by Freserve in the UK. Basically, the ISP and phone company both get a cut of the call. Not sure of the exact split (and I don't want to send the discussion into tangent-land), but I suspect the ISP get about .6p of the penny a minute and about 1.6p of the peak 4p/min (the ISP must get above a penny in this case as Esat's local calls are 3p not 4p, I suspect they're making about the same money on the peak net calls as the offpeak when using IOL as an ISP)



  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    the one good thing i read there is that eircom dont have a free rain on prices,
    they will have to run them by the odtr, who as shown by the llu price wants a fair price for uptake, somethign that will incurage,

    a £30 1gb-2gb service is a very good idea as it will get alot of peope on to broadband, you average 56k free service user wont download more then that so it will a real alternative to 56k for alot of people,

    But a fair priced unlimited service at £50-£60 were the price can only fall as more teleco compete, is allso a good idea for heavy users,

    This is how id insure the uptake in broadband.

    One that scare me is, did you see that wholesale product stuff, Is that are is that not what they mean when they talk LLU,

    And they say they only have to provide the service once they have allready rolled out adsl in that area, so we will have along wait for ADSL in north dublin from either esat or eircon


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,659 ✭✭✭✭dahamsta


    Eircom is "the most regulated telecoms company in Europe" and the "only regulated telecom company in Ireland", according to Pat Galvin.

    Awww, poor dotey Eircom are being bullied by nasty old Etain Doyle. Everybody!? Awwwww! I'm sure Deutsch Telekom would be only too delighted to jump in and refute Mr. Galvin's assertion. Me, I've got another word for it. I've got several actually, but I'm much too polite to go into that.

    Thanks for the report David, much appreciated. My opinion of Eircom has not changed though - I still see them as a monopolistic, anti-competitive bunch of morons. Business is business but in my opinion Eircom are breaking the law and should be held accountable for it.

    Of course, the OLO's get little sympathy too. If we're to believe Eircom's comments - and personally I think much of it is fairy stories - they've got a nice little cartel going. Which is also illegal last time I looked.

    Hokum, it's all hokum.

    adam

    [This message has been edited by dahamsta (edited 20-07-2001).]


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  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    very informative, Fair play.


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    In response to the quote shown below ....
    All ISPs (including eircom.net and indigo) must receive the same deal from Eircom. In cases where you pay only call charges the revenue is split between Eircom and the ISP to which you are connected.

    "I dial into Eircom.not as my No Limits is gone now - I pay only the local call charge. If as, the remark made above implied, Eircom and eircom.net are separate business entities, how can eircom.net even function as they get zero money in subs, so they must be subsidized by daddy Eircom. In essence, it basically means that Eircom can charge a minimum charge for ever minute you use the bandwitdh, are the sole people capable of doing do, and they have little reason to change this profitable status."


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dangger:
    Attendance:
    <snipped>
    Eircom:
    Pat Galvin - Director Regulatory Affairs, Eircom Plc.
    Paul Walsh - Head of Pricing, Eircom Plc.
    Majella Fitzpatrick - PR Manager, Eircom Plc.
    Joe Styles - Regulatory Affairs, Eircom Plc.
    </font>

    heh they did flood this with top suits didn't they.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Pat Galvin explained that Eircom had not replied to our original letter of 16
    June as it did not arrive until the 16th of July, and he showed us the envelope!
    </font>


    shocking - isn't the ODTR also the Postal Regulator. It's all a big conspiracy I tell you...
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If Eircom subsidised flat rate access to eircom.net or if
    eircom.net supplied a package at a loss, they would be heavily penalized.
    </font>


    Of course they would. This question was a bit of a waste of time anyway, they're not going to offer a flat rate when they're creaming metered access at the moment. A bit like asking Turkeys would they consider supporting Christmas.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Eircom is "the most regulated telecoms company in Europe" and the "only
    regulated telecom company in Ireland", according to Pat Galvin.
    </font>


    Maybe he was 'misquoted' too because that's a load of *cough*. Eircom are the dominant player in the Irish market, and as such are subject to more regulatory decisions than the others. What a stupid statement.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Packages must
    be based on commercial reality, and geared to suit different user groups. He
    explained that there are ongoing discussions with the OLOs to overcome FRIACO problems.
    </font>


    All goes back to the making too much money out of metered access, and having zero competition in this market.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">In his opinion, FRIACO could be introduced by the end of 2001, if two
    conditions are met: if it is a commercially viable business case for Eircom;
    </font>


    It's not going to happen then.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
    Pat Galvin went on to explain in detail some of the issues affecting Eircom at
    the moment. In particular, the regulations forcing them to provide Internet
    access on their voice network, as opposed to development of a separate data
    network. There is also a drive by the ODTR to bring costs down.
    </font>


    What??? OK this paragraph has my head spinning does this sound as stupid to the rest of you.

    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Eircom put
    substantial resources and expertise into having the local loop unbundled by
    January 1 2001, and met the goal.
    </font>


    Rubbish. The Telecoms regulator themselves have pointed out that Eircoms level of co-operation was not acceptable, and that practical LLU was not achieved.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
    After unbundling took place on January
    1 2001, thirteen of the initial fourteen OLO's retracted their interest in making
    use of the unbundled local loop.
    </font>


    Completely irrelevant. LLU was required to happen whether there were 200 interested parties or zero.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As stated by Pat, it is up to
    the OLO's to avail of it.
    </font>


    "Sure offer the service. But as we're currently disputing the price you can't make any business decisions on pricing as that might change at any stage hahahaha *cue maniacal laughter*"
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
    Concerning trial usage of xDSL broadband technology since 1997, Eircom
    explained that the continuing evolution of xDSL technologies necessitated
    trials on an ongoing basis.
    </font>


    We're talking bog standard ADSL here, this is more disinformation.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">They could not give any time scale for a roll out beyond the trial exchanges.
    </font>


    Hard luck those of you outside those areas you're not getting it.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Paul Walsh replied
    that the xDSL service supplied by each individual ISP will be under the control
    of that ISP - it will be up to each provider to decide what levels of limitation will
    be placed on the packages they offer. Such packages could be tiered or
    unlimited examples.
    </font>


    We await the prices they deliver to the ODTR with interest....
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The Eircom representatives made a strong case that the debate for availability
    of Internet access to date has focused almost entirely on the supply side and
    that more emphasis should be placed on developing the demand side.
    </font>


    "Demand side"??? OK now I'm convinced they're on drugs. How about reducing the cost and offering higher speed connections would that influence demand do you think? My head hurts obviously their thinking is too advanced for me.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">At this
    point we raised the comments by Anne Corcoran in the Irish Times regarding
    lack of demand. They said that her remarks were made out of context </font>


    "There is no demand for flat rate access". In what context could she possibly have been quoted. Garbage.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Provided that Eircom is confident the seminar is structured in a
    positive way, they will be very happy to take part.</font>


    So I guess that means the burning effigies of Eircom are ruled out.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">In our opinion, after meeting with Eircom, they are dealing with all Internet
    access issues on a strictly commercial basis. We would worry that this could
    prolong the timescale for things like FRIACO and nationwide roll out of
    broadband.
    </font>


    uhm eh? Of course they are do we expect anything different (from anyone)? They're a monopoly and are looking to keep it that way.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">At the same time, we have to recognise that Eircom is now a commercial
    operation that has to answer to its shareholders and that there is possibly too
    much focus on regulated pricing and not enough on making services
    commercially viable.
    </font>


    Sorry I disagree strongly with your conclusions. We don't have to recognise anything here other than they are a monopoly and are extracting monopoly profits. It is upto our supposed regulator to foster competition which they have failed to do.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">We also feel that the fact that Eircom is so highly regulated makes some
    things more difficult for them than for OLO's. One case in point is LLU – it
    seems to us that Eircom has been to some extent used by OLO's as a
    convenient scapegoat for their own failure to take advantage of LLU.
    </font>


    oh come off it. It is impossible for an OLO to take up LLU when there is no final pricing decision, when discussions like equipment placement are only now taking place, when SLAs are not in place. No-one will offer a service under these conditions. ESAT have submitted a fast track proposal, so let's see how 'quickly' they can offer it. Eircom are stalling to the maximum extent possible, and are succeeding.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As a user group, we must continue to put pressure on Eircom but we must not
    fall into the trap of seeing it all as Eircom's fault
    </font>

    Correct - it's also the ODTRs and Departments fault for not tackling Eircom.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,309 ✭✭✭✭Bard


    "hmmm" - If you were at last evenings meeting you'd have heard all these issues discussed and gone through in detail...- something which is easy to do in person, but trickier on a newsgroup or web forum.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hmmm:
    "There is no demand for flat rate access". In what context could she possibly have been quoted. Garbage.
    </font>

    Eircom pointed out in the meeting that it is not Eircom's views that there is no demand for flat-rate, and that they recognise the strong demands that are there, - basically refuting what Anne Corcoran had said.

    I can't reply to the rest of what you said, as I wasn't at the Eircom meeting.

    Bard
    Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Thanks to Dangger and hmmm for the enlightenment.

    Isn't it sad how everybody is just bashing poor Eircom...
    When I find a minute I may take the time to feel sorry for them...
    Poor Eircom - unthankful pack of users (esp. those bad guys at IOFFL! - yes you!!! Ahem and me!!!)and shareholders and politicians.... rolleyes.gif

    Well, if they think there are things going wrong in their own company than they should first start to look at themselves.
    Instead of whining like mad they should provide their customers with a proper telecommunications service at a decent price (I am talking about voice and data). Then they would not need to worry about people being not interested in their services and their shares would show a more positive trend as well...

    For non-local voice calls I am already using services as offered by swiftcall.ie.
    Considering the data-communication - I for my part am not willing to wait another few years (I am living out in 'the bogs') to get a good, affordable flat-rate access and therefore will probably get DSL via satellite (up and downstream offer) later this year, when they are available in Europe.

    Maybe some day (hopefully not to late for them) Eircom will recognize that we do have a global market by now and will act accordingly.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    One thing that really doesn't endear Eircom to me is how all these wonderful price reductions they've announced over the last few years have been held off as long as possible, and are clearly only brought on by pressure of the competition of the other telcos. We need a lot of the likes of Swiftcall and Spirit in the internet access market before Eircom will offer anything.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,659 ✭✭✭✭dahamsta


    My favourite "Eircom are conmen" one is the rental people paid for decades on their phones. I only discovered it a few years ago when looking at the house bill - the ma and da were still paying rental of a couple of quid every month for a phone that must have been twenty years old. In fact, it probably wasn't even the same phone, since the daddy ran his business out of the house for a few years at the start and had his own engineer in. I reckon they must have made a good few hundred quid out of that over the years - those must be the most expensive phones around.

    I took great pleasure in taking it into my local Telecentre one day and dumping it unceremoniously on some guys desk, and then making him fill out a receipt for it. If only I could do the same thing with the twenty-year old copper...

    adam

    [This message has been edited by dahamsta (edited 20-07-2001).]


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Just arrived home from Dublin via some business stuff in Monaghan; as I have a lot of family stuff to catch up on, I don't have time just now to reply in detail to the many points raised above. I also know Elana is busy with visitors from USA today and David is busy playing with his new ASDL toy smile.gif

    Please bear with us, we will try to reply to the many points raised above over next few days.

    Couple of general points we explained at the meeting last night which are worth repeating here.

    1) Reports on our meetings with various bodies are always abbreviated e.g. our meeting yesterday with Eircom was nearly 2 hours long so it would be impossible to give all details.

    2) In our reports, we focus on what they said rather than what we said - please don't think that we sit there and just listen, we do a hell of a lot of challenging.

    3) Our reports are in the public domain so we have to be very careful how we write them - it is important that we quote exactly what the other people said. This does not mean that we necessarily accept or agree with what they said - that's why we usually include a separate short summary of our main conclusions with the intention of expanding them out on this board.

    4) The people we are talking to are very aware that we publicly post these reports. At times, however, they are prepared to 'take off their official hats' and give us off-the-record opinions. We obviously cannot publish these opinions but they are invaluable to us in understanding better what is going on and the interplay between the various parties.

    One post from above that I cannot help smiling at is from hmmmm
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">heh they did flood this with top suits didn't they.</font>

    The prescence of so many 'suits' and especially the head of PR shows how seriously these people take IrelandOffline smile.gif

    Martin Harran

    [This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 20-07-2001).]


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Eircom have no valid excuse to not offer unmetered Internet access, especially as it has been proven that unmetered access to the Internet is profitable in other countries.

    By sidestepping the issue by referring to the fact that Eircom net is a different entity, Eircon are only demonstrating their utter and complete greediness.

    The fact is, Eircom (the main company, and not Eircom net) could start rolling out a FRIACO-based system next Monday, and then sell it to Eircom net and any other interested ISPs.

    The only other explanation is that the directors of Eircom are so completely stupid, they couldn't figure this out. By their response, they seem to be implying that this is the case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bard:
    "hmmm" - If you were at last evenings meeting you'd have heard all these issues discussed and gone through in detail...- something which is easy to do in person, but trickier on a newsgroup or web forum.
    </font>

    Fair enough. Sadly nature intervened and I came down with Tonsilitis this week (always something akward happens when you least want it) so I couldn't make it. But I've already got the time off booked for the seminar wink.gif


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    >>I also know Elana is busy with visitors from USA today and David is busy playing with his new ASDL toy

    I'm actually in tatters in bed and trying to recover before I can get any where near the new toy!!!!


    [This message has been edited by Dangger (edited 21-07-2001).]


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hmmm:
    quote:
    Pat Galvin explained that Eircom had not replied to our original letter of 16
    June as it did not arrive until the 16th of July, and he showed us the envelope!


    shocking - isn't the ODTR also the Postal Regulator. It's all a big conspiracy I tell you...[/B]</font>

    Well I have to admit that this is not first time this has happened to me - last week, by coincidence, I received a letter from Dublin that had been posted 2 weeks previously.

    Haven't done an accurate count on this but recepit of letters from Dublin to my home in Donegal would roughly be:

    40% within next days
    25% second day
    25% third day
    10% over 3 days

    Never thought about taking this up with ODTR - maybe this could be next "big issue" once we achieve IOFFL objectives smile.gif

    Martin


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Lot of good points raised above which need to be debated further. At this stage, however, I would like to make a few general observations - I must make it clear that these are my personal opinions and not necessarily those of the IOFFL committee.

    1) Eircom carries a lot of blame for what is going on, but IMO if we are going to change this, we have to recognise the GENUINE problems and constraints they have.

    Take for eaxample their gripe about being the only regulated telco in Ireland. ESAT unceremoniously dumped 2000 users because it was costing them too much. When people contacted ODTR about this they got the reply "Sorry, none of our business." If Eircom treated customers like this, would the ODTR (and the Government and the media) have paid so little attention to it ?

    I am not for one minute suggesting that Eircom should not be regulated - just making the point that regulation is a two edged sword, Eircom have to cover their asses in everything they do and in some circumstances, this could stop them trying things that could be of benefit to the user.

    2) The whole area of price is a major issue - IMO, negotiations on charges are the single factor most likely to drag things out. Eircom obviously went in far too high on LLU charges but maybe, just maybe, the ODTR went too low on insisting on the EU average, especially when the feedback from many users is that they are willing to pay more, provided it is not exorbitant and is fixed. 'Exorbitant' is yet to be defined of course smile.gif

    We've all seen too many stupid situations in industry and the public sector
    where trade unions have gone in demanding 40 to 50% pay rises; employers have made equally stupid offers of 4 or 5%; after all sorts of shenanigans and disruption, they settle for something like 10-15%. I shudder to think that this sort of approach will apply in Internet access.

    I think that IOFFL should strive to take an even handed approach - we have to challenge Eircom on why they believe that 3 times the EU average price is necessary - equally we have to challenge the ODTR on why they think the EU average is a 'fair' price.

    3) Whatever we think about the way Eircom was sold off, we have to accept the reality of the siutation. They are now a private company and will only make investment decisions on a commercial basis. They have no requirement, for example, to provide new services where it is uneconomic to do so. This is an area that the government has to figure out. For example, if industry can get grants for installing new equipment, maybe Eircom should be treated the same - getting grant aid for installing new equipment in low population areas (with the same grant aid available to other telco's who are prepared to take the task on). I guess this would be hard to assess and control but IMO it's the sort of fresh thinking we need.

    Again, I want to emphasise that I am not in any way defending Eircom or supporting their stance - just trying to 'sort the wheat from the chaff' and provoke further debate smile.gif

    Martin




    [This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 21-07-2001).]


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    i disagree with your statement about being willing to pay high but not cut unaffordable prices for adsl,

    I am happy to pay a fair price for a fair service, id even pay the 70 pounds for an unlimited 25-1 connection at 516/266,

    As i have shown in another post this is an extremely fair price with high profit margin over exiting services, except 56k.

    What allot of people will pay for but is totaly unexceptable service,
    is 70 pounds a month for a limited 516/128
    50-1 conection, with extra charges for per mb, which takes away the "peace of mind" alot of us want it for, no huge bills and no worring how long/or how much your downloading,


    Theres a huge difference between what people will be happy to pay and what people will be forced to pay due to a lack of options,
    i feel theres a need to stress this point


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    and before anybody comes back with the english pay less,
    no they dont, the english pay 50 pounds a month on free serve(recently put up their price), add 12-15 line rental you get 62-65 sterling, factor in exchange rates and the like and your looking at about
    80 irish a month they pay for adsl, but its a **** 50-1 connection so no were not paying any more for adsl, unless eircom charge us the 100 pounds a month for unlimited service they talked about


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  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Re-submitted below

    [This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 21-07-2001).]


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hmmm:
    In his opinion, FRIACO could be introduced by the end of 2001, if two conditions are met: if it is a commercially viable business case for Eircom;
    It's not going to happen then</font>
    I actually think it will – the ODTR told us that when negotiations eventually break down, they have the power to intervene and Eircom know this. If they have any sort of business sense – and I’m sure they have – they will be better to get a deal done with ESAT without the ODTR interfering as illustrated with LLU charges.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Pat Galvin went on to explain in detail some of the issues affecting Eircom at the moment. In particular, the regulations forcing them to provide Internet access on their voice network, as opposed to development of a separate data network. There is also a drive by the ODTR to bring costs down.
    What??? OK this paragraph has my head spinning does this sound as stupid to the rest of you. </font>
    Ok, it is a bit confusing as there are two separate issues here (not making any excuses but David, Elana and I had to work fast to get the report ready for the public meeting frown.gif )

    First of all, the network thing. According to Eircom, when they started to see the dramatic growth in the Internet, they decided that the best way to provide access was through a separate data network, specially designed for Internet traffic. The ODTR said no to this – Internet access had to also be available over the existing voice network. Eircom’s argument is that this forces them divide their expenditure between the voice and digital networks instead of focussing it on the digital one and also gives no guarantee that other providers will even make use of the digital network. I don’t know what the ODTR’s reasons were for adopting this policy but I can understand Eircom’s economic argument.

    The point they are making on prices is that the ODTR is trying to drive Eircom’s prices downwards all the time – this lessens the money they have available for upgrading networks and installing equipment (also shareholders’ returns of course, but they never mentioned that smile.gif )
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Eircom put substantial resources and expertise into having the local loop unbundled by January 1 2001, and met the goal.
    Rubbish. The Telecoms regulator themselves have pointed out that Eircoms level of co-operation was not acceptable, and that practical LLU was not achieved. </font>
    To be honest, I’m finding it hard to assess the truth here, all I can tell you is that Pat Galvin was really passionate on this point!
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">After unbundling took place on January 1 2001, thirteen of the initial fourteen OLO's retracted their interest in making use of the unbundled local loop.
    Completely irrelevant. LLU was required to happen whether there were 200 interested parties or zero. </font>
    Yes, but no real value to us if OLO’s don’t make use of it.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As stated by Pat, it is up to the OLO's to avail of it.
    "Sure offer the service. But as we're currently disputing the price you can't make any business decisions on pricing as that might change at any stage hahahaha *cue maniacal laughter*" </font>
    That’s an assumption, I think we have to challenge the other parties on exactly why they haven’t taken it up – with the exception of Esat who took it up immediately the ODTR intervened on price.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Concerning trial usage of xDSL broadband technology since 1997, Eircom explained that the continuing evolution of xDSL technologies necessitated trials on an ongoing basis.
    We're talking bog standard ADSL here, this is more disinformation.</font>
    I’m not qualified to speak on this – what do the other ‘techies’ think ?
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">They could not give any time scale for a roll out beyond the trial exchanges.
    Hard luck those of you outside those areas you're not getting it. </font>
    Well, as I said before, I don’t expect to have broadband here in Castlefinn anywhere in the near future – that’s why we must keep up the fight for unmetered access frown.gif
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> that the xDSL service supplied by each individual ISP will be under the control of that ISP - it will be up to each provider to decide what levels of limitation will be placed on the packages they offer. Such packages could be tiered or unlimited examples.
    We await the prices they deliver to the ODTR with interest.... </font>
    Agreed !
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The Eircom representatives made a strong case that the debate for availability of Internet access to date has focused almost entirely on the supply side and that more emphasis should be placed on developing the demand side.
    "Demand side"??? OK now I'm convinced they're on drugs. How about reducing the cost and offering higher speed connections would that influence demand do you think? My head hurts obviously their thinking is too advanced for me. </font>
    Funny enough, this is one area where I agree with them. With the small population in Ireland, one of the ways to justify the investment costs is to get people making as much use of it as possible – e’g’ what happened to the government’s ebusiness initiative where we would all, for example, be able to do things like making our tax returns online ?

    I accept that it is a “chicken and egg” situation but IMO we should be pushing on both sides of this.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">At this point we raised the comments by Anne Corcoran in the Irish Times regarding lack of demand. They said that her remarks were made out of context
    "There is no demand for flat rate access". In what context could she possibly have been quoted. Garbage. </font>
    They made it clear that what she said did not represent Eircom’s view – let’s not crucify the woman, OK?
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Provided that Eircom is confident the seminar is structured in a
    positive way, they will be very happy to take part.

    So I guess that means the burning effigies of Eircom are ruled out. </font>
    Afraid so smile.gif
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">In our opinion, after meeting with Eircom, they are dealing with all Internet access issues on a strictly commercial basis. We would worry that this could prolong the timescale for things like FRIACO and nationwide roll out of broadband.
    uhm eh? Of course they are do we expect anything different (from anyone)? They're a monopoly and are looking to keep it that way. </font>
    This is where we have to keep pressure on ODTR to stop negotiations becoming protracted.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">At the same time, we have to recognise that Eircom is now a commercial operation that has to answer to its shareholders and that there is possibly too much focus on regulated pricing and not enough on making services commercially viable.
    Sorry I disagree strongly with your conclusions. We don't have to recognise anything here other than they are a monopoly and are extracting monopoly profits. It is upto our supposed regulator to foster competition which they have failed to do. </font>
    I’m just worried that the Regulatory approach is two edged sword – if ODTR comes down too heavy on Eircom, they in return can ‘play the system’ through appeals procedures etc. IMO, it’s a case of getting a balance.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">We also feel that the fact that Eircom is so highly regulated makes some things more difficult for them than for OLO's. One case in point is LLU – it seems to us that Eircom has been to some extent used by OLO's as a convenient scapegoat for their own failure to take advantage of LLU.
    oh come off it. It is impossible for an OLO to take up LLU when there is no final pricing decision, when discussions like equipment placement are only now taking place, when SLAs are not in place. No-one will offer a service under these conditions. ESAT have submitted a fast track proposal, so let's see how 'quickly' they can offer it. Eircom are stalling to the maximum extent possible, and are succeeding. </font>
    I just think that some of the OLO’s do not have entirely clean hands in this area and we should be pressurising them for clear explanations of their policies.
    <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As a user group, we must continue to put pressure on Eircom but we must not fall into the trap of seeing it all as Eircom's fault
    Correct - it's also the ODTRs and Departments fault for not tackling Eircom.</font>
    No argument there smile.gif

    P.S. Apologies for so many posts all at once but I was away all day yesterday and I am playing ‘catch up’.

    Martin Harran



    [This message has been edited by o_donnel_abu (edited 21-07-2001).]


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