Why are we all becoming socialists now?

af_thefragile · 10-03-2012 11:59pm #1

Seems like the answer to every financial problem is tax. Why can't a man no longer enjoy the fruits of his labour without the hand of the government grasping every last bit of sustenance and claiming it belongs not to the individual but to the nation. Why is it that the financial crisis can't be solved by encouraging entrepreneurship and setting up of local businesses and industry which can help drive the economy? Why is the only solution to the whole recession taxing the **** out everything that exists? The government has no money? Well lets just increase the taxes and take it from the people.

No economy can survive without industry. This is what happened to this country. People thought we can set up banks and give dodgy loans and make money in the form of the interest that comes from the money that didn't exist in the first place. The collapse of such an economy was inevitable. Suddenly the government realises the country is actually broke and there was no economy in the first place. The only solution that seems fit is to raise taxes!

Why are we converting this democratic nation into a socialist state?

The King of Moo · 11-03-2012 12:00am

Who is John Galt? This guy is.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-03-2012 12:01am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Seems like the answer to every financial problem is tax. Why can't a man no longer enjoy the fruits of his labour without the hand of the government grasping every last bit of sustenance and claiming it belongs not to the individual but to the nation. Why is it that the financial crisis can't be solved by encouraging entrepreneurship and setting up of local businesses and industry which can help drive the economy? Why is the only solution to the whole recession taxing the **** out everything that exists? The government has no money? Well lets just increase the taxes and take it from the people.

No economy can survive without industry. This is what happened to this country. People thought we can set up banks and give dodgy loans and make money in the form of the interest that comes from the money that didn't exist in the first place. The collapse of such an economy was inevitable. Suddenly the government realises the country is actually broke and there was no economy in the first place. The only solution that seems fit is to raise taxes!

Why are we converting this democratic nation into a socialist state?

How else would you suggest the government obtains money?

Turtyturd · 11-03-2012 12:01am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Seems like the answer to every financial problem is tax. Why can't a man no longer enjoy the fruits of his labour without the hand of the government grasping every last bit of sustenance and claiming it belongs not to the individual but to the nation. Why is it that the financial crisis can't be solved by encouraging entrepreneurship and setting up of local businesses and industry which can help drive the economy? Why is the only solution to the whole recession taxing the **** out everything that exists? The government has no money? Well lets just increase the taxes and take it from the people.

No economy can survive without industry. This is what happened to this country. People thought we can set up banks and give dodgy loans and make money in the form of the interest that comes from the money that didn't exist in the first place. The collapse of such an economy was inevitable. Suddenly the government realises the country is actually broke and there was no economy in the first place. The only solution that seems fit is to raise taxes!

Why are we converting this democratic nation into a socialist state?

Wouldn't people benefit from it if it was a socialist state?

Chuck Stone · 11-03-2012 12:02am

Tax cows gotta get milked.

benway · 11-03-2012 12:03am

Because austerity isn't working.

Because the rich have far too great a share of the nation's resources hoarded away.

Because the only way to set in train a meaningful recovery is to unlock those resources and put them to work, for all of our benefits.

Because its a more rational, fairer way of organising society.

Because neoliberal, free market capitalism has failed.

Socialism and democracy aren't mutually exclusive, btw. While I'm at it, neoliberal capitalism doesn't seem to be much compatible with democracy either - just look at Greece and Italy.

Chuck Stone · 11-03-2012 12:08am

socialism

A political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

You're talking about tax policy rather than socialism I'd say.

DB21 · 11-03-2012 12:10am

Notably though, the last time the world was in a collective economic hell, socialism became very popular in certain countries.

Captain Darling · 11-03-2012 12:12am

benway wrote: »

Because austerity isn't working.

Because the rich have far too great a share of the nation's resources hoarded away.

Because the only way to set in train a meaningful recovery is to unlock those resources and put them to work, for all of our benefits.

Because its a more rational, fairer way of organising society.

Because neoliberal, free market capitalism has failed.

Socialism and democracy aren't mutually exclusive, btw. While I'm at it, neoliberal capitalism doesn't seem to be much compatible with democracy either - just look at Greece and Italy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qLPdI7bZnI

Chevolution · 11-03-2012 12:13am

Pretty sure that socialism is against taxing the people on everything such as their own house.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-03-2012 12:14am

Coming back any time soon, OP?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 11-03-2012 12:15am

only because people in socialist countries are too poor to own houses worth taxing

micropig · 11-03-2012 12:15am

Not sure but a few quotes to ponder

I am convinced that the path to a new, better and possible world is not capitalism, the path is socialism.
Hugo Chavez

Read more: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/socialism.html#ixzz1ol55MWKr

Democracy is the road to socialism.Karl Marx

Capitalism is war; socialism is peace.Karl Liebknecht

All socialism involves slavery. Herbert Spencer

Capitalism is war; socialism is peace.Karl Liebknecht

If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years.
Vladimir Lenin

Marriage is socialism among two people. Barbara Ehrenreich

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 12:15am

But history has showed us that socialism doesn't work either and in many ways is worse than capitalism. Look what happened to Soviet Russia.

The richest in the nation don't get affected anyway because they have all of their property invested in tax havens.

Its only the middle class and working class who get affected by this as more businesses close down or scale down and make people redundant increasing the rate of unemployment because no one can afford anything anymore as everything is freaking expensive due to taxes.

What we need to drive back the country is to go in the opposite direction towards a lower taxed free market economy where entrepreneurs can have the opportunity of setting up businesses that can then create the jobs people need without them being discouraged or stressed by increasing taxes.

The government cannot run anything properly anyway. The nation could benefit from some privatisation.

Chevolution · 11-03-2012 12:17am

af_thefragile wrote: »

But history has showed us that socialism doesn't work either and in many ways is worse than capitalism. Look what happened to Soviet Russia.

The richest in the nation don't get affected anyway because they have all of their property invested in tax havens.

Its only the middle class and working class who get affected by this as more businesses close down or scale down and make people redundant increasing the rate of unemployment because no one can afford anything anymore as everything is freaking expensive due to taxes.

What we need to drive back the country is to go in the opposite direction towards a lower taxed free market economy where entrepreneurs can have the opportunity of setting up businesses that can then create the jobs people need without them being discouraged or stressed by increasing taxes.

The government cannot run anything properly anyway. The nation could benefit from some privatisation.

Didn't socialism work in Cuba pretty well?

benway · 11-03-2012 12:19am

micropig wrote: »

All socialism involves slavery. Herbert Spencer

Herbert Spencer is best known an advocate of social Darwinism, which basically involved letting the poor starve and die, sterilising the unworthy, etc. A total psycho, essentially. Just sayin'.

af_thefragile wrote: »

The government cannot run anything properly anyway. The nation could benefit from some privatisation.

Proof of that? Or are you just parroting an ideological screed?

Now that I recall, Anglo did a swell job in the banking market ... private enterprise is so sweet. And didn't the British railways run so smoothly after privatisation?

micropig · 11-03-2012 12:22am

I hear your a socialist now father.....:D

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 12:25am

Chuck Stone wrote: »

socialism

A political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

You're talking about tax policy rather than socialism I'd say.

But this tax policy will eventually lead the country into becoming a socialist state. When you tax the middle class out of existence then you end up in a socialist society which is run by the bureaucrats and the proletariat working class who work their assess off to sustain an economy which is constantly being leached from them by the bureaucrats.

In in the case of Ireland, you will eventually have a population working hard in low income jobs paying off most of their income as taxes while the economy is leached by corrupt politicians and the overlords in EU.

KeithAFC · 11-03-2012 12:30am

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." Winston Churchill

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-03-2012 12:34am

af_thefragile wrote: »

But history has showed us that socialism doesn't work either and in many ways is worse than capitalism. Look what happened to Soviet Russia.

The richest in the nation don't get affected anyway because they have all of their property invested in tax havens.

Its only the middle class and working class who get affected by this as more businesses close down or scale down and make people redundant increasing the rate of unemployment because no one can afford anything anymore as everything is freaking expensive due to taxes.

What we need to drive back the country is to go in the opposite direction towards a lower taxed free market economy where entrepreneurs can have the opportunity of setting up businesses that can then create the jobs people need without them being discouraged or stressed by increasing taxes.

The government cannot run anything properly anyway. The nation could benefit from some privatisation.

In other words, let the rich abuse the**** out of people and run the country into the groung AGAIN??? Did you notread the replies to your first post?

benway · 11-03-2012 12:35am

KeithAFC wrote: »

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries." Winston Churchill

That's well for him to say, the accident of birth gave him more than his share of blessings, alright. He was the grandson of the Duke of Marlborough brought up in the Vice Regal lodge in Dublin's fair city, when most of the country really didn't have a pot to p!ss in. Don't think a slightly bigger share of "misery" in his early life would have hurt him too much.

losthorizon · 11-03-2012 12:38am

Ireland is the most right wing country in Europe! We have never ever voted in a left wing government. A little house tax sets people off yet if it was a tiny weeny increase in PAYE no one would notice.

On the other hand we love our subsidies - we are a strange country when it comes down to it raised on the mantra of FF and to a lesser extent PD/SS policies.

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 12:42am

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In other words, let the rich abuse the**** out of people and run the country into the groung AGAIN??? Did you notread the replies to your first post?

But it wasn't the rich who did that. It was a handful of bankers who thought they could make money from giving out loans which didn't exist in the first place.

And the irony is these bankers are still living their comfortable lives while the honest people who have worked hard to become successful at whatever they do and make a decent living need to suffer because of the consequences of what these handful of bankers have done.

Why is it that when you pay attention is school, do well in your leaving cert, spend 3-5 (and sometimes more) years in university working your ass off to get a decent degree so you can be well educated and qualified to get a good job and make a good living, that you should still live your life at the same standard as the person who paid no attention in school and because of that is jobless and lives on the dole? Why shouldn't you be rewarded for working hard to attain the qualification that allows you to live a comfortable life?

KeithAFC · 11-03-2012 12:44am

losthorizon wrote: »

Ireland is the most right wing country in Europe! We have never ever voted in a left wing government. A little house tax sets people off yet if it was a tiny weeny increase in PAYE no one would notice.

On the other hand we love our subsidies - we are a strange country when it comes down to it raised on the mantra of FF and to a lesser extent PD/SS policies.

The Irish Republic is not right wing. Voting in a right wing party doesn't mean you are right wing.

benway · 11-03-2012 12:57am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Why shouldn't you be rewarded for working hard to attain the qualification that allows you to live a comfortable life?

Nobody's denying people who work hard the right to a comfortable life. But the top 10% get 25% of the disposable income in this country. The cumulative effect of this has been that 1% of the population holds 20% of the nation's wealth. That's a bit beyond comfortable.

Meanwhile 17% of children are at risk of poverty, or brought up in poverty.

It's getting to the point where the wealthy need to make the choice between letting some of these resources go in order to give the majority of the population have a better life, or hide out in their gated communities with armed guards, as the rest of the country falls into penury. Won't be much of a life for anyone if they're allowed to follow the latter course.

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 1:09am

benway wrote: »

Nobody's denying people who work hard the right to a comfortable life. But the top 10% get 25% of the disposable income in this country. The cumulative effect of this has been that 1% of the population holds 20% of the nation's wealth. That's a bit beyond comfortable.

Meanwhile 17% of children are at risk of poverty, or brought up in poverty.

It's getting to the point where the wealthy need to make the choice between letting some of these resources go in order to give the majority of the population have a better life, or hide out in their gated communities with armed guards, as the rest of the country falls into penury. Won't be much of a life for anyone if they're allowed to follow the latter course.

That's not going to happen though. The taxes hit the middle class the hardest who are the ones who have worked hard throughout their lives to strive to live a comfortable life.

As I mentioned in my previous post, the bankers and the crooks who got the country into this mess are still living their comfortable lives. Why hasn't any banker been sent to prison for committing fraud (which is why they were committing)?? Why is Bertie Ahern and other corrupt politicians like him still roaming around freely?

The wealthiest 1% never pay the taxes anyway. They spend their lives abroad in tax havens hence the idea that increasing the taxes will offset the wealth from the wealthiest 1% to the rest 99% is a myth.

The rest 99% need education and jobs. If they don't find it in this country, they'll emigrate to another country which will only end up hurting the nation's economy more as well educated people leave the country to work elsewhere. The only ones left will be the ones who can't get a decent job elsewhere and will need to go on the dole which in turn puts further stress on the economy. To balance this government raises taxes further which further reduces public spending causing more business to shut down or leave Ireland to set up business elsewhere reducing the number of jobs further and the spiral continues.

Bottom line is simply increasing the taxes will not fix the economy!

benway · 11-03-2012 1:13am

af_thefragile wrote: »

Bottom line is simply increasing the taxes will not fix the economy!

Wealth tax. Use it or lose it. That could easily fix the economy, within a relatively short space of time. Would require a watertight system to prevent capital flight, and more importantly the political will to implement it. Not too likely under the blueshirts ... or b$stardin' Labour, for that matter.

coffee_cake · 11-03-2012 1:16am

benway wrote: »

Because neoliberal, free market capitalism has failed.

socialising private debt that was cheered on by the state means free market capitalism has failed?

okay sure

pache · 11-03-2012 1:17am

af_thefragile wrote: »

But this tax policy will eventually lead the country into becoming a socialist state. When you tax the middle class out of existence then you end up in a socialist society which is run by the bureaucrats and the proletariat working class who work their assess off to sustain an economy which is constantly being leached from them by the bureaucrats.

In in the case of Ireland, you will eventually have a population working hard in low income jobs paying off most of their income as taxes while the economy is leached by corrupt politicians and the overlords in EU.

Fair enuf i dint read all posts but your not far rong threir

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 11-03-2012 1:17am

af_thefragile wrote: »

But it wasn't the rich who did that. It was a handful of bankers who thought they could make money from giving out loans which didn't exist in the first place.

Well it wasn't the poor. Who work just as bloody hard to put food on the fmaily table, I might add.

And the irony is these bankers are still living their comfortable lives while the honest people who have worked hard to become successful at whatever they do and make a decent living need to suffer because of the consequences of what these handful of bankers have done.

I agree, but that's not the issue you raised.

Why is it that when you pay attention is school, do well in your leaving cert, spend 3-5 (and sometimes more) years in university working your ass off to get a decent degree so you can be well educated and qualified to get a good job and make a good living, that you should still live your life at the same standard as the person who paid no attention in school and because of that is jobless and lives on the dole? Why shouldn't you be rewarded for working hard to attain the qualification that allows you to live a comfortable life?

In what way are they living the same lifestyle as someone who didn't? Generally speaking, people in professions are earning more money net and are leading more comfortable lives. Thus, your loaded question is inaccurate.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Bottom line is simply increasing the taxes will not fix the economy!

Then why is it that it works in Scndanavia?

Which brings me back to the question I raised very early on: how do you propose the government raises funds?

af_thefragile · 11-03-2012 1:18am

benway wrote: »

Wealth tax. Use it or lose it. That could easily fix the economy, within a relatively short space of time. Would require a watertight system to prevent capital flight, and more importantly the political will to implement it. Not too likely under the blueshirts ... or b$stardin' Labour, for that matter.

It probably won't work either. If I was a greedy rich million/billionaire and such a tax was introduced, I'll pack all my bags and wealth and move over to Dubai or some other tax haven like that.

The only way you can put use of the wealth of these people is to get them to invest their wealth back into the country creating industries and jobs. And this will not happen if you tax the crap out of anyone who decides to set up a private industry in this country.

Why are we all becoming socialists now?

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