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Humpback whales try to save grey whale from orcas?

Comments

  • #2
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Well, that is truly amazing. First I've heard of it. Good find Adam.


  • #3
    Mickeroo
    Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,132 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    How lucky were they to witness that? Its hard to know for sure I suppose but that pretty much looks like altruism or empathy on display


  • #4
    Kess73
    Registered Users Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    Mickeroo wrote: »
    How lucky were they to witness that? Its hard to know for sure I suppose but that pretty much looks like altruism or empathy on display




    Would not think so.


    Similar acts happen on a regular basis in nature. Take sparrowhawks on patrol or actively hunting.

    They can have a flock of sparrows pinned down and if there are swallows in the area, the swallows will make a beeline for the hawk and divebomb it over and over whilst letting out loud cheeps/shrieks.

    Corvids will also join in against hawks or cats.


    If the hawk then takes off it can have an assortment of swallows, corvids, pigeons etc all join in with the mobbing.


    There are plenty of other examples of how different species will arrive to run off a predator even though the predator was not directly interfering with those species.

    The idea of it being some sort of heroic act is a nice one, but methinks it is more a case of anthropomorphism by those who see or read about such incidents rather than genuine empathy by the animals in question.

    Basically it is a survival instinct that drives the need to remove a potential threat from the area.


  • #5
    Adam Khor
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    I strongly believe some animals (and more than we suspect) feel empathy towards others. I remember experiments made with monkeys and rats about this, and there is one fantastic case reported by a Mexican diving guide about altruism in fish (a moray eel and a grouper) which is a really heartwarming story.
    The diving guide wrote a letter to a certain magazine (IIRC) that had stated that the hunting team-ups of moray eels and groupers (which had been reported in the Red Sea if I well recall) was simply a case of opportunism on both their sides. The diving guide wrote that he had many years diving in a coral reef in southern Mexico in which moray eels and groupers hunted together as well. Not only that, but one particular couple hunted as a team for a very long time, and eventually, the moray eel was too old and had lost too many teeth so it couldn´t hunt anymore. Amazingly, the grouper would return to the moray's lair and feed it. If this isn´t altruism I don´t know what is. The grouper didn´t obtain any benefits from feeding the moray eel, yet it did for a long while until both fish dissappeared.

    I'm not saying the whales in the OP were acting out of empathy- it may very well be mobbing, like Kess said, but I don´t think we should be close to the possibility, especially considering how complex these creatures are.


  • #6
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Kess73 wrote: »



    The idea of it being some sort of heroic act is a nice one, but methinks it is more a case of anthropomorphism by those who see or read about such incidents rather than genuine empathy by the animals in question.

    I am always one to roll my eyes when people do that with their pets but the simple fact is that we do not know what drives humans to want to help each other (and risk our lives for animals). People are often too quick to call on anthropomorphism as a reason. These animals are extremely intelligent and social, there is no reason that this type of behavior is not driven by a cetacean version of empathy.
    Emotions are just chemically triggered responses, we do not know the level of brain function needed to trigger them.


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  • #7
    Kess73
    Registered Users Posts: 25,560 ✭✭✭✭Kess73


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    I am always one to roll my eyes when people do that with their pets but the simple fact is that we do not know what drives humans to want to help each other (and risk our lives for animals). People are often too quick to call on anthropomorphism as a reason. These animals are extremely intelligent and social, there is no reason that this type of behavior is not driven by a cetacean version of empathy.
    Emotions are just chemically triggered responses, we do not know the level of brain function needed to trigger them.



    I don't think it is impossible that the act was driven by some form of empathetic response to what was happening, but I do think it is much more likely that it was driven by a mobbing instinct designed to see off a potential threat.


    Your point about emotions is a good one.


  • #8
    loveisdivine
    Registered Users Posts: 2,463 ✭✭✭loveisdivine


    I think people do tend to forget that emotions are just chemical reactions. Its nothing magical or special that only humans can do it.
    Granted we dont know if it works in the same way with other species, but to brush off all instances of possible examples of emotions in animals, as anthropomorphising is just silly I think.

    Is it so crazy that the same chemical reactions that take place in our brains, could take place in theirs too? Or even different chemical reactions that have similar results? Who knows, maybe whales feel more of a connection to each other than we do, but its just a different type of connection?

    As an interesting question, which bond would you think is stronger or more profound?

    The bond between two humans who seek friendship or the bond between two animals that rely on each other to survive another day?


  • #9
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    loveisdivine wrote: »
    I think people do tend to forget that emotions are just chemical reactions. Its nothing magical or special that only humans can do it.
    Granted we dont know if it works in the same way with other species, but to brush off all instances of possible examples of emotions in animals, as anthropomorphising is just silly I think.

    Is it so crazy that the same chemical reactions that take place in our brains, could take place in theirs too? Or even different chemical reactions that have similar results? Who knows, maybe whales feel more of a connection to each other than we do, but its just a different type of connection?

    As an interesting question, which bond would you think is stronger or more profound?

    The bond between two humans who seek friendship or the bond between two animals that rely on each other to survive another day?

    Theres not a chemical found in a chimps brain thats not found in ours. I completely agree with your post. Emotions are purely chemical and we were not the first to evolve them and several other species have them.


  • #10
    Adam Khor
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Adam Khor


    I always tell people: our emotions had to come from somewhere. :>


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