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ASTI: Schools considering dropping vital LC subjects

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  • 04-04-2012 1:18pm
    #1
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭


    This post has been deleted.


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    #2
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Blaming the unions, I see? That's in no way predictable.

    There are plenty of us out there who oppose further cuts as a matter of principle and don't need any encouragement or scare tactics. The public sector is being cut to the bone, it's only to be expected that service levels will suffer.

    Don't see how the study of economics is conducive to growth, either.


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    #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I think I went to the science labs twice in my whole 6 years of secondary school. And I did science up until 4th year and then "Phys-Chem" a mixture of physics and chemistry which I actually ended up dropping a few months before the leaving cert. I'll tell you where we spent loads of time - in religion class and in the 'oratory'.

    So yeah, anecdotal evidence, but it was all very badly run and was nothing to do with budget cuts etc as in my final years 1m was spent on a sports hall.


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    #4
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #5
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    I would hate to see Physics, Chemistry and accounting go. Not so much Economics. I agree it's ideological indoctrination dressed up to look like science.


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    #6
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    This is pure ideological guff. We can all agree that cutting subjects is A Bad Thing.

    But blaming the schools, teachers and teachers unions themselves for reduced service levels following swingeing cuts? As if it comes down to Public Sector Inefficiency™ rather than being a logical consequence of the approach our government has taken to debt reduction?


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    #7
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Seems very short sighted. You'd think health care and education would be holy grails that are political suicide to even touch. But seems not to be the case.


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    #8
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    Considering that the vast, vast bulk of the money pumped into education in the last decade has been directed not into facilities or material, but teachers pockets, I would take any talk of cuts forcing subject withdrawl due to lack of money for facilities or material with significant skepticsm. TBH, it reads far more like blatant greed and another attempt to use the nation's children as a weapon; a tactic of which the ASTI are no strangers.


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    #9
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #10
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Since when are teachers responsible for determining what classes are taught? Surely that's a matter for the school's board of management?

    Cancelling subjects means cutting teaching hours or cutting actual staff numbers, so I'm not convinced it's something teachers would welcome, or threaten, anyway.

    I'd be far more worried about the effects of amalgamating H-level and O-level classes, as well as general overcrowding, than I would be about cutting economics and accounting in particular. According to the report, these appear to be much bigger problems.

    The report also says that admin and pastoral care have been two of the most affected areas by cutbacks (and rightly so,but I think it deserves to be acknowledged).


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    #11
    benway
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭benway


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Are you talking about our unswerving support for those Private Sector Heroes in the banking and financial services sector? If so, you may have a point.

    I'm guessing you're having a go at those awful, greedy teachers and nurses, though.

    About 25% of the annual budget for secondary schools goes on capital spending, materials, etc, and our increase in spending in the past decade still didn't keep pace with the increase in GNI.


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    #12
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    RichieC wrote: »
    I would hate to see Physics, Chemistry and accounting go. Not so much Economics. I agree it's ideological indoctrination dressed up to look like science.

    :rolleyes: Are you seriously accusing thousands of professional economists from multiple different schools of thought of indoctrinating people? Even economists studying specialised fields such as healthcare economics and environmental economics?

    I think it's fair to say that accusation is beyond ridiculous.


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    #13
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Because good education and good health are required for a good economy. Certainly, make it more efficient where possible, improve the system with reforms, but slashing budgets cold turkey is not going to help anyone.

    I don't agree that simply throwing money at a problem fixes it, but that doesn't mean the reverse is therefore true.

    Seems so short sighted. we'll either way be paying back this mess of a bank bail out for generations, I don't see why we're in such a hurry to shoot ourselves in the foot.


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    #14
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,634 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    RichieC wrote: »
    I would hate to see Physics, Chemistry and accounting go. Not so much Economics. I agree it's ideological indoctrination dressed up to look like science.
    Because good education and good health are required for a good economy.

    You know what else is required for a good economy? A sense of how it works...


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    #15
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Drop Irish perchance?


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    #16
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Overheal wrote: »
    You know what else is required for a good economy? A sense of how it works...
    In fairness, I think the idea that the study of economics is good for the economy is a little naive.

    For one thing, it almost supposes that a knowledge of economic theory results in wise conclusions.

    I think we all know that's not necessarily the case.

    nl2x42.png


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    #17
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #18
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #19
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Suryavarman wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Are you seriously accusing thousands of professional economists from multiple different schools of thought of indoctrinating people? Even economists studying specialised fields such as healthcare economics and environmental economics?

    I think it's fair to say that accusation is beyond ridiculous.

    Yes. and incresingly so.

    http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/151066/ayn_rand_indoctrination_at_american_universities,_sponsored_by_the_right_wing/

    how long until this is the norm?


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    #20
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    later12 wrote: »
    In fairness, I think the idea that the study of economics is good for the economy is a little naive.

    For one thing, it almost supposes that a knowledge of economic theory results in wise conclusions.

    I think we all know that's not necessarily the case.

    nl2x42.png

    They'll say mass to keep their friends in high finance happy.


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    #21
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    RichieC wrote: »
    Yes. and incresingly so.

    http://www.alternet.org/teaparty/151066/ayn_rand_indoctrination_at_american_universities,_sponsored_by_the_right_wing/

    how long until this is the norm?

    So because a few dozen US colleges are now teaching Atlas Shrugged that amounts to a global conspiracy by economists to indoctrinate students? Also that article does little to back up your view. The word "economics" features a grand total of 3 times in the entire article.

    It seems to me that the problem you have with economics isn't that it indoctrinates people but that it doesn't back up the left wing nonsense you espouse on a regular basis.


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    #22
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Suryavarman wrote: »
    So because a few dozen US colleges are now teaching Atlas Shrugged that amounts to a global conspiracy by economists to indoctrinate students? Also that article does little to back up your view. The word "economics" features a grand total of 3 times in the entire article.

    It seems to me that the problem you have with economics isn't that it indoctrinates people but that it doesn't back up the left wing nonsense you espouse on a regular basis.

    In an age when funding is drying up and unis and colleges are turning to ideologically twisted rich people for funds? yes, it is a big worry.

    Your second paragraph just illustrates the problem I have. Thanks for that.


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    #23
    Suryavarman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭Suryavarman


    RichieC wrote: »
    In an age when funding is drying up and unis and colleges are turning to ideologically twisted rich people for funds? yes, it is a big worry.

    Your second paragraph just illustrates the problem I have. Thanks for that.

    Yeah because every single rich person is a conservative or a libertarian. And then all of those rich people donate to universities to advance their ideology :rolleyes:


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    #24
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Suryavarman wrote: »
    Yeah because every single rich person is a conservative or a libertarian. And then all of those rich people donate to universities to advance their ideology :rolleyes:

    There's an undeniable correlation between vast wealth and right wing libertarianism/conservatism. Anyway, we're way off topic here at this stage.


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    #25
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    RichieC wrote: »
    They'll say mass to keep their friends in high finance happy.
    While I don't think the study of economics at school is critically important for the economy, I should point out that that wasn't an endorsement of your statement about ideological brainwashing either. My experience of economics at third level would be completely at odds with what you are suggesting, and there is no shortage of academic work by economists with left wing leanings.


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    #26
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    There's an undeniable correlation between vast wealth and right wing libertarianism/conservatism. Anyway, we're way off topic here at this stage.

    Yup.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #27
    matthew8
    Registered Users Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    Just because we don't fully understand economics doesn't mean it's not a science. If more students study economics I think that will further our understanding of economics. It's like saying neuroscience is not a science because we don't fully understand the brain. Sure there's some indoctrination, but everybody in an economics class knows that you can't take everything your told in economics class at face value because if you could we wouldn't be in such a mess.


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    #28
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    later12 wrote: »
    While I don't think the study of economics at school is critically important for the economy, I should point out that that wasn't an endorsement of your statement about ideological brainwashing either. My experience of economics at third level would be completely at odds with what you are suggesting, and there is no shortage of academic work by economists with left wing leanings.

    I didn't take it as so, though my opinion remains unmoved. I would also consider Marxist economics brainwashing and I imagine Pb et would too.


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    #29
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RichieC wrote: »
    I didn't take it as so, though my opinion remains unmoved. I would also consider Marxist economics brainwashing and I imagine Pb et would too.

    Ok, ok. Enough of this tripe. What should we measure and analyze with instead of economics, so?


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    #30
    starviewadams
    Registered Users Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭starviewadams


    Could we not cut out pointless subjects like Religion/Irish/CSPE before we consider cutting actual useful subjects that are mentioned in the OP's article?

    And maybe look at amalgamating foundation/ordinary level subjects instead of ordinary/higher level subjects as is currently the case.


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    #31
    matthew8
    Registered Users Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    RichieC wrote: »
    I didn't take it as so, though my opinion remains unmoved. I would also consider Marxist economics brainwashing and I imagine Pb et would too.

    But don't you think most people who do economics like to do a bit of thinking for themselves too? I'm with you in the way that the teacher has too much of a say about wht's taught in economics, but I don't think the teacher's views transfer to the class all the time. My brother started economics with an open mind, and despite an economics teacher who's a big fan of Keynes he is highly critical of Keynes and prefers theories like Friedman's.


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