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Riello G3 not igniting?

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  • 11-12-2006 1:17am
    #1
    Daibheid
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭


    I see ther are a few people here who really know oil burners so hoping for a little help here. Mine is a Kerosene Riello G3 and it started fine yesterday and ran OK for a few hours but then I noticed the house getting cold. The burner was running but not igniting and of course it was starting to get dark!

    Confirmed oil in tank and reaching the burner as it was opening the damper (oil pressure drives the actuator)

    Pulled the burner, removed the blast tube to extract the nozzle and confirmed it wasn't blocked. The built-in mesh filter was spotless.

    It looks like the igniter isn't sparking but not being familiar with the ignition sequence I can't figure :
    A) is the solenoid on the oil pump not working and the controller then doesn't fire
    B) is the contoller, specifically the ignition circuit dead?

    I'm guessing from previous experience the controller is not smart enough for A) and should just spark away until the photo-cell confirms ignition.

    However when running there's no fuel dripping out of the nozzle suggesting the solenoid may be sticking or perhaps just not being switched? The evidence mounts on the control box being plain dead!

    I'm hoping someone can tell me how to test the controller and the solenoid? I've got a multimeter and could get more hardware if required.

    Background info : burner is a long way from the time switch and I've no way of powering it up to watch it start but I got to it within about 5-8 secs of power on so I don't believe it sparked.
    The lock out light was not wired in but I added the required neutral connection and the light didn't come on anyway when I tried the burner again.
    The photocell is spotless.

    As an aside I think someone quoted one of these burners at about €300 here? Where could I get it at that price although it's only 8 years old and looks good mechanically. I can get the control box here but it ain't cheap:
    http://www.boilercare.ie/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=63_64&products_id=106
    and apart from the HTignition coil the guts all look very standard i.e. viable to repair/replace the components. So if someone could point me in the right direction I'd have a go at diagnosing and fixing the box.

    I'll post a couple of pix in case that jogs anyone's expertise or the elctrodes are bunched and I don't realise it.

    Many thanks for any advice offered, be nice to get it sorted for Christmas without denting the festive funds too much!


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    #2
    JamesM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭JamesM


    Daibheid wrote:
    I see ther are a few people here who really know oil burners so hoping for a little help here. Mine is a Kerosene Riello G3 and it started fine yesterday and ran OK for a few hours but then I noticed the house getting cold. The burner was running but not igniting and of course it was starting to get dark! !
    Do you mean that the burner continuously ran for more than about 30 secs without cutting out ?
    Confirmed oil in tank and reaching the burner as it was opening the damper (oil pressure drives the actuator)

    Pulled the burner, removed the blast tube to extract the nozzle and confirmed it wasn't blocked. The built-in mesh filter was spotless.

    It looks like the igniter isn't sparking but not being familiar with the ignition sequence I can't figure :
    A) is the solenoid on the oil pump not working and the controller then doesn't fire
    B) is the contoller, specifically the ignition circuit dead?

    I'm guessing from previous experience the controller is not smart enough for A) and should just spark away until the photo-cell confirms ignition.

    However when running there's no fuel dripping out of the nozzle suggesting the solenoid may be sticking or perhaps just not being switched? The evidence mounts on the control box being plain dead!

    I'm hoping someone can tell me how to test the controller and the solenoid? I've got a multimeter and could get more hardware if required.

    Background info : burner is a long way from the time switch and I've no way of powering it up to watch it start but I got to it within about 5-8 secs of power on so I don't believe it sparked.
    The lock out light was not wired in but I added the required neutral connection and the light didn't come on anyway when I tried the burner again.
    The photocell is spotless.
    !
    The sequence should be: Switch on - motor should start, air vent should open if oil pump OK. The spark only starts just about a second before the solenoid coil opens. If the photocell does not see a flame, within about 5 secs the burner shuts off. If the burner is continuing to run without ignighting for more than about 20 secs there is a problem with the photocell or the control box. The wiring should only have a live & neutral below the control box, and the earth to the body. You should not have anything in the centre connection, it is for a remote warning light. One thing about Riello burners is that you can only use Riello parts. The power for everything on the burner is taken from a low voltage connection in the motor. Unfortunately the quickest way to check for faulty parts is to replace them with a spare old part, which you would not have, but service engineers usually carry.
    Jim.


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    #3
    Daibheid
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Daibheid


    Thanks Jim for the quick response.
    JamesM wrote:
    Do you mean that the burner continuously ran for more than about 30 secs without cutting out ?

    Yup it'd have run forever just blowing air into the boiler.
    The sequence should be: Switch on - motor should start, air vent should open if oil pump OK. The spark only starts just about a second before the solenoid coil opens. If the photocell does not see a flame, within about 5 secs the burner shuts off. If the burner is continuing to run without ignighting for more than about 20 secs there is a problem with the photocell or the control box. The wiring should only have a live & neutral below the control box, and the earth to the body. You should not have anything in the centre connection, it is for a remote warning light. One thing about Riello burners is that you can only use Riello parts. The power for everything on the burner is taken from a low voltage connection in the motor. Unfortunately the quickest way to check for faulty parts is to replace them with a spare old part, which you would not have, but service engineers usually carry.
    Jim.

    Thanks for the sequence and process of elimination. You're confirming my less well informed suspicion the control box is suspect. Because the cell is clean and there appears to be no ignition attempts or fuel being sprayed it looks more like a failure of the box. I've got the burner back in the city for the week - the in-laws will have to tough it out with the open fire back at the ranch - so limited in what checks I can do other than apply power. Service engineers in Wesht Cork are scarce with long travel time/call-out charges!
    The fact nothing but the motor works suggests the ignition circuit is, like the solenoid control circuit probably OK, that something has killed the power into the box or in the first part of the circuit. Could be a real cheap fix if I knew what components to look at.
    Appreciate any ideas other than buying a new box and hoping that fixes it.

    BTW anyone know where I can buy a complete replacement burner - if the box is a third of the price.....?


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    #4
    JamesM
    Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭JamesM


    Dave, Just noticed your PM - I always forget to look for them :o
    Heatmerchants have a G3B listed at 281.72 plus VAT http://www.heatmerchants.ie/heat/index.html
    Your problem might only be the photocell, but, to be honest, my way of testing it would be swop it with another one.
    Jim.


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    #5
    Daibheid
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Daibheid


    Thanks for all the pointers Jim. Bought a complete new burner . Gota be sure of the boiler this time of year!


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    #6
    xocal
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭xocal


    I know it's a long time since this topic was discussed, but I have a similar problem!
    I have followed all the points raised, and can confirm that the motor runs ok, and take it that as the damper activates the pump must be ok! I have tried a new control box and magic eye without success. I've stripped the solenoid, and needle valve, and whilst there was some grunge, cleaning it didn't solve the problem. Can I take it that the solenoid must be working as oil is getting through to the damper? I've cleaned out the regulator whose springs were chukka with gunge! And cleaned the Nozzle, whose filter was clean!
    To be frank, I've stripped down and cleaned every part, tried a new control box and P.E Cell or magic eye, and feel that it narrows down to The solenoid sequence i.e.does it simply control oil to the burner nozzle? In which case a new solenoid coil could be the answer?? Any advice appreciated!!


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    #7
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    I was on to Riello in the Uk recently about a problem I had. Motor was running but no attempt to ignite. Turned out to be the photocell.

    However, given you seem to have tried a lot of things, one of the things the adviser suggested I test might be applicable in your case. The control box is powered with 50v generated by a secondary coil in the motor. If this 50v is not being generated - no workee. Mine is an RDB2 90-110.

    The white wire in the control box is the one you need to check for the voltage.

    This fault diagnosis sheet might help: http://www.rielloburners.co.uk/lumo/upload_documents/riello_chartfaultfindingfor535seldrdbseriesburners2.xls


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    #8
    xocal
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭xocal


    Thanks for that! The diagnostic chart most helpful! Will check pressure and try new solenoid coil to morrow?


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    #9
    Daibheid
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Daibheid


    Based on a problem I had, check the Photocell very carefully with a known good one rather than one out of the box. I had a new one turn out defective. That really screws your faultfinding logic! It's probably the cheapest replacement part and I believe combined with all the things you've ruled out it would explain the symptoms you have.


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    #10
    ferrer12
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭ferrer12


    Hi I have a riello burner, it will fire come up to temp and then locks out, I have replaced the control box but to no avail, I have metered the magic eye looking into the fire but nothing,not sure if this is correct or not,any help,thanks


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    #11
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,727 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    ferrer12 wrote: »
    Hi I have a riello burner, it will fire come up to temp and then locks out, I have replaced the control box but to no avail, I have metered the magic eye looking into the fire but nothing,not sure if this is correct or not,any help,thanks

    Could be the solenoid.


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    #12
    ferrer12
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭ferrer12


    Thank you will have a look at that, can I meter it ?


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    #13
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    Get a service engineer before you waste more money.
    Simple answer !

    From an oil service engineer.

    Plenty of times I happily fix oil boilers while looking at expensive non returnable parts on the ground.
    Up to you ?

    ps. Your on an old 8 year old tread !


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    #14
    ferrer12
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭ferrer12


    Where are you based,anywhere near glanmire ?


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    #15
    ferrer12
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭ferrer12


    You around tomorrow ?


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    #16
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,727 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    ferrer12 wrote: »
    Thank you will have a look at that, can I meter it ?

    Yes. Test the resistance of the coil. But the thing is, I'm thinking there's a small crack in the coil and it only opens when the coil has heated. So hard to test. They're cheap so maybe just change it and see


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    #17
    ferrer12
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭ferrer12


    Thank you will try that tomorrow.


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    #18
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,727 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    ferrer12 wrote: »
    Thank you will try that tomorrow.

    No worries. Let us know how you get on


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    #19
    scudo2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,008 ✭✭✭scudo2


    ferrer12 wrote: »
    Hi I have a riello burner, it will fire come up to temp and then locks out, I have replaced the control box but to no avail, I have metered the magic eye looking into the fire but nothing,not sure if this is correct or not,any help,thanks

    You metered magic eye?
    You used a lux meter ?


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    #20
    Daibheid
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Daibheid


    ferrer12 wrote: »
    Hi I have a riello burner, it will fire come up to temp and then locks out, I have replaced the control box but to no avail, I have metered the magic eye looking into the fire but nothing,not sure if this is correct or not,any help,thanks

    I don't think you can usefully meter the PE cell or magic eye nor does it sound like that's your problem. You Should know that resistance checking applies a voltage from the meter and could hurt some circuits. However it's a cheap replacement maybe 15 yoyos and easy if you're competent and can probably be got from Heatmerchants.
    The fact it's firing up ok says you should carefully check the basics. For example make certain you have oil in the tank, that you didn't run it dry , it's not air locked, doesn't need bleeding, filters are clean etc before going after the expensive stuff. Run Enough fuel through the bleed valve to know that's not the issue.

    Good luck with it and be sure to post up what sorts it unlike some leeches who tap into help threads like this.


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    #21
    ferrer12
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭ferrer12


    Hi all had an engineer look at it today and he told me I could be throwing money away,so I went and bought a new one,its installed now and working fine,he said its a very unusual problem,so I have loads of spares of now if any of you guys need them,and thanks again.


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    #22
    Dtp1979
    Registered Users Posts: 12,727 ✭✭✭✭Dtp1979


    ferrer12 wrote: »
    Hi all had an engineer look at it today and he told me I could be throwing money away,so I went and bought a new one,its installed now and working fine,he said its a very unusual problem,so I have loads of spares of now if any of you guys need them,and thanks again.

    You bought a new burner instead of trying a new solenoid?


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    #23
    ferrer12
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭ferrer12


    Hi, no the guy had a solenoid and most other spares with him,we tried them all but the problem remained,it would fire no problem,you could then move the stat up and down it would cut in and out as it should,but left on its own it would reach temp and cut out as it should, but lock out on refire, its in the garage away from the house so it was a pain in the ass going in and out all day, my daughter is coming home for christmas for a month so I bit the bullet,again thanks and as I say I have loads of spares now if you need any.


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