Replacing School books with Ipads??

thebman · 11-06-2011 12:31am

banquo wrote: »

It's because the school would have much, much greater control over what the iPad in the child's hands can / can't do.

How, where are the lock down options or custom firmwares for iPad?

There's way more developers for iPad than other platforms and, because it's so popular and been around longer than other tablet devices, it's been more tried and tested.

That is simply untrue. There are plenty of other tablets on the market and since the Android ones are open sourced, they are by far a better choice for this sort of thing yet still a poor choice due to no dedicated keyboard. A netbook would probably be a better option.

They're really, really easy to use.

Also you can, you know, buy one. Most other tablets are vapourware, and the ones you can buy either suck majorly or are priced way higher than the iPad. By far the best bang for your buck. These aren't techies who want more control over the device: they're children.

This is again simply untrue. Most other tablets exist and are viewable in stores

Do you work for Apple or something? It is not in anyway the best bang for buck. You don't have to be a techie to use alternative platforms to Apple. Most are almost, just or even easier to use :rolleyes:

Grudaire · 11-06-2011 1:21am

banquo wrote: »

It's because the school would have much, much greater control over what the iPad in the child's hands can / can't do.

There's way more developers for iPad than other platforms and, because it's so popular and been around longer than other tablet devices, it's been more tried and tested.

They're really, really easy to use.

Also you can, you know, buy one. Most other tablets are vapourware, and the ones you can buy either suck majorly or are priced way higher than the iPad. By far the best bang for your buck. These aren't techies who want more control over the device: they're children.

Oh. And you can get WiFi only models.

I'm personally all for it.

Sorry I personally believe that is a load of baloney. Why out of curiousity do they not try and link in with something like the "One Laptop Per Child" or similar movement. I'm failing to see the leap to using Ipads, and I would be curious how they decided on using the Ipad. I can imagine them sitting in a room discussing how ipads are the new fashion, and wondering how they could link it in to the classroom - I would suspect it wasn't a case of choosing the end result and finding the tools.

On the really really easy to use comment I did a scout, seems like you spend a lot of time on the apple forums here:

banquo wrote: »

If I had an iPad I'd totally lend it to you.

I assume this means you can speak on authority on how "they're really, really easy to use" and how the alternatives aren't? :P

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:42am

padr81 wrote: »

Problem was books weren't as big, 6th class nephew, has to bring all his books home. Bag weighs 3 stone. Try walking 20 minutes home carrying 3 stone at age 12.

Red herring

Lockers in schools would have solved that.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:45am

bk wrote: »

Yet there is no ICT or Computer Science subject in either Junior Cert or Leaving Cert, despite the IT industry being one of the most important industries in Ireland and IT being used in almost every other industry.

I got a cert for doing the optional computer bit in Maths back in the 80's.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:59am

Two other options.

Wait a while
India are developing a cheap tablet. It will be about €25, technically it will be a mobile phone with a big screen (OK so is the ipad) but they will have economies of scale and it's doable.
Yes that's right you can have a box preloaded with an English language curricuum for less than the price of some Irish schoolbooks - just need to change History / Geography and languages.

http://camaraireland.ie/ refurbished laptops and desktops, you don't need the latest and greatest to view ebooks

€700 per child is crazy especially when that amount of money could be put to other uses expecially in the under resourced primary schools.

Noreen1 · 12-06-2011 8:37am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Red herring

Lockers in schools would have solved that.

Lockers don't solve the problem of having to bring books home to do homework, unfortunately.

Noreen1 · 12-06-2011 8:44am

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Two other options.

Wait a while
India are developing a cheap tablet. It will be about €25, technically it will be a mobile phone with a big screen (OK so is the ipad) but they will have economies of scale and it's doable.
Yes that's right you can have a box preloaded with an English language curricuum for less than the price of some Irish schoolbooks - just need to change History / Geography and languages.

http://camaraireland.ie/ refurbished laptops and desktops, you don't need the latest and greatest to view ebooks

€700 per child is crazy especially when that amount of money could be put to other uses expecially in the under resourced primary schools.

I agree that €700 per child is a ridiculous amount of money.
I'm not sure what you mean by the money being put to better use in under-resourced primary schools, though?

The one thing we can be sure of, is that whatever solution is adopted:
A: The parents will pay, just as they pay for schoolbooks now.
B: Individual schools will undoubtedly have a choice of a number of devices - but will "recommend" only one - and it is unlikely to be the €30 Indian option.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:23pm

Noreen1 wrote: »

Lockers don't solve the problem of having to bring books home to do homework, unfortunately.

A simple rule that only homework from N subjeccts per night is allowed. Teachers to sort it out themselves, either by dary ( ie. maths homework on tuesdays ) or by tokens in the staff room, - two tokens for class 3a - each teacher can only use up to two times a week.

This is not rocket science, it doesn't need a techno fix

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:28pm

Noreen1 wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by the money being put to better use in under-resourced primary schools, though?

you get more bang for your buck in primary, I'd guess that some (old enough to vote) third level students go through as much materials as a whole primary class (excluding wages of course).

The one thing we can be sure of, is that whatever solution is adopted:
A: The parents will pay, just as they pay for schoolbooks now.
B: Individual schools will undoubtedly have a choice of a number of devices - but will "recommend" only one - and it is unlikely to be the €30 Indian option.

parents will pay eitherway

what can an ipad do that a €30 android type 7-10" tablet can't do ?
bearing in mind that stuff that isn't directly related to education doesn't count.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-06-2011 12:37pm

Most children study/learn in specific places. In the classroom, or bedroom at home. Using the "cloud" would mean they don't actually need portable devices. And if they did they could use ANY device.

Anyone who suggests that kid would use these devices to learn on the move better have stats to prove it because even at third level I didn't know anyone who took books/notes with them outside a learning environment who actually used them.

There is no need for a Vendor lock in to fix a problem that could be sorted out in so many other ways.

Look at examples in the US of remote control of devices to see the legal nightmares that could happen, webcams have been used to spy on students etc.

If schools could use open soure text books they could print a chapter at a time so kids wouldn't need to take a whole book home, actually if school books were availabe to print on demand then students could have two copies, one at school and one at home.

Noreen1 · 12-06-2011 3:24pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

A simple rule that only homework from N subjeccts per night is allowed. Teachers to sort it out themselves, either by dary ( ie. maths homework on tuesdays ) or by tokens in the staff room, - two tokens for class 3a - each teacher can only use up to two times a week.

This is not rocket science, it doesn't need a techno fix

This might work at Primary level, where there are fewer subjects and teachers.
At secondary school, however, where there are both more subjects and teachers, methinks it could prove problematic.

It would require co-operation from every teacher, in every school - and 100% compliance tends to be difficult to achieve in any group.(No disrespect to teachers.)

Noreen1 · 12-06-2011 3:36pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If schools could use open soure text books they could print a chapter at a time so kids wouldn't need to take a whole book home, actually if school books were availabe to print on demand then students could have two copies, one at school and one at home.

Where would we find the open-source textbooks?
Besides, a lot of parents would object, based on cost/having even more printed material to store than is already the case.....

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

you get more bang for your buck in primary, I'd guess that some (old enough to vote) third level students go through as much materials as a whole primary class (excluding wages of course).

parents will pay eitherway

what can an ipad do that a €30 android type 7-10" tablet can't do ?
bearing in mind that stuff that isn't directly related to education doesn't count.

Apologies, I should have clarified my position.
I'm not in favour of iPads - I think an e-reader, or android typre 7-10" tablet is a better option.

However - many people, both parents and teachers, wouldn't have a clue what to buy.
Hence, schools will issue recommendations -

Whether those recommendations will be either the best or most cost-effective solution will, I suspect, vary a great deal from school to school...

thebman · 12-06-2011 4:03pm

Well what I don't understand about this is if you were going to use an electronic solution, why a tablet with an LCD screen and not an e-ink e-reader such as the kindle.

Steodonn · 12-06-2011 10:56pm

Laptop with a specially designed (hopefully open-source) OS. Limited accounts for students with admin accounts for students and teachers. Things that would distract students can be blocked and parents could open the internet ( like facebook ) to their kids at home if they want

Corsendonk · 12-06-2011 11:52pm

I just have a few questions from a practical point of view.

Wouldn't you have to refit a school with charge points at desks or are the batteries that good?
How will they off balance the increased energy consumption in schools? Will they be refitted with solar panels?
Can we replace the teacher entirely and replace with a controller who can release teaching programmes?

Strikes me that if it is to be effective way to work they have to go further than give them to a teacher whose own pc capabilities are behind the class or he or she is too busy updating facebook on their unblocked pad.

The system could be used to advance teaching schedules of class members that have learnt quicker than others so that every minute in class is used effectively to mentally challenge class members and also constantly keeps track of pupil progression. So parents can access their childs progress weekly online.

Capt'n Midnight · 13-06-2011 10:45am

Corsendonk wrote: »

I just have a few questions from a practical point of view.
Wouldn't you have to refit a school with charge points at desks or are the batteries that good?

the batteries could be that good with e ink ,with LCD loads of kids will have flat batteries so would require rewiring, cables, unmovable desks , health and safety etc.

[*]How will they off balance the increased energy consumption in schools? Will they be refitted with solar panels?

nope, parents would have to pay

[*]Can we replace the teacher entirely and replace with a controller who can release teaching programmes?

nope, look at the history of distance learning and how few people do it and how many of them are motivatied by stuff that the average schoolkid isn't

So parents can access their childs progress weekly online.

the parents that help kids with home work and attend parent teacher meetings will already know, the others don't care

Corsendonk · 13-06-2011 12:08pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

the batteries could be that good with e ink ,with LCD loads of kids will have flat batteries so would require rewiring, cables, unmovable desks , health and safety etc.

nope, parents would have to pay

nope, look at the history of distance learning and how few people do it and how many of them are motivatied by stuff that the average schoolkid isn't

the parents that help kids with home work and attend parent teacher meetings will already know, the others don't care

Doesn't sound like any advantage to the kids at all to be gained by the scheme. Yes sure the school bag is lighter but how many kids walk to school when they have SUVs and jeeps to carry them to the door step these days?

bpb101 · 13-06-2011 3:17pm

i would be against the idea but, think of so many times you took your friends book home by mistake...

banquo · 13-06-2011 3:50pm

I imagine 32 kids in a classroom with laptops would be a health and safety nightmare.

Steodonn · 14-06-2011 2:47am

Corsendonk wrote: »

Doesn't sound like any advantage to the kids at all to be gained by the scheme. Yes sure the school bag is lighter but how many kids walk to school when they have SUVs and jeeps to carry them to the door step these days?

Me and I have most of my life. Would of loved a laptop instead

thebman · 14-06-2011 3:05am

banquo wrote: »

I imagine 32 kids in a classroom with laptops would be a health and safety nightmare.

Classes only usually last the recommended attention span time which is roughly equal to the amount of time your supposed to spend in front of a VDU.

No problem with netbooks which are both affordable and useful.

iPads and tablet Pc's are a fad. They failed before for a reason, no keyboard and touch input devices are a pain which people are just about willing to put up with on a phone for the added functionality because they are used for short communications.

Nobody is going to do their homework or write an essay or even a full length email on a touchscreen device.

I know as I have written some and it is only ever as a last resort.

banquo · 14-06-2011 10:04am

That's not why tablets failed before.

You just can't have 32 netbooks in a classroom. There isn't a classroom in the country with 32 power outlets and an insurance company willing to take on 32 kids running around 32 wires.

The only tablet Ive used that IMHO equals the iPad in usability is the Xoom, and the iPad is cheaper. I notice that some eager poster took the time to go through my posts on another part of boards and gleefully noted that I dont currently have an iPad - I actually have two, but my parents have independently nicked both of them!

My mother, a 50-something, now consumes pretty much all her content digitally. The iPad is almost ridiculously easy to use, and these are schoolkids we're talking about here.

There's also the issue that, if the school ever updates the iPad models, that at least the interface will remain largely the same without any massive changes. Apple might not be the most open of companies - my apple tv now sits completely unused now that I have a Boxee Box (which I thoroughly recommend as a side note) but with kids you're not going for open. You're going for reliable, easy-to-use software.

Also, I do think that tablet mobile devices are the next iteration of home computing. Best they learn to use something like iOS - where you don't need to learn how to use an OS - then have to learn how to use Windows / OSX / some crappy netbook OS.

Also also, have you seen most primary school teachers try to use a computer?!

Sesshoumaru · 14-06-2011 11:38am

Some sort of lightweight tablet device would be a good idea. Devices like these can also be centrally locked down so only authorised applications can run. It simply wouldn't be possible for kids to use them to browse random websites or play games etc. In our environment we can lock down both Android and IOS (Apple) devices, people worrying about kids being able to play games on these devices are worrying about nothing.

Sesshoumaru · 14-06-2011 12:10pm

banquo wrote: »

That's not why tablets failed before.

You just can't have 32 netbooks in a classroom. There isn't a classroom in the country with 32 power outlets and an insurance company willing to take on 32 kids running around 32 wires.

The only tablet Ive used that IMHO equals the iPad in usability is the Xoom, and the iPad is cheaper. I notice that some eager poster took the time to go through my posts on another part of boards and gleefully noted that I dont currently have an iPad - I actually have two, but my parents have independently nicked both of them!

My mother, a 50-something, now consumes pretty much all her content digitally. The iPad is almost ridiculously easy to use, and these are schoolkids we're talking about here.

There's also the issue that, if the school ever updates the iPad models, that at least the interface will remain largely the same without any massive changes. Apple might not be the most open of companies - my apple tv now sits completely unused now that I have a Boxee Box (which I thoroughly recommend as a side note) but with kids you're not going for open. You're going for reliable, easy-to-use software.

Also, I do think that tablet mobile devices are the next iteration of home computing. Best they learn to use something like iOS - where you don't need to learn how to use an OS - then have to learn how to use Windows / OSX / some crappy netbook OS.

Also also, have you seen most primary school teachers try to use a computer?!

iPads are for consuming content, not doing work on. As you say they are very easy to use, kids don't need to learn how to use a touch interface. My 4 year old has no problem using the android tablets we have in our house our the iTouch or anything touched based. But I also teach her how to use a mouse and keyboard as much as possible.

Tablets of any sort are not going to replace PC's or Windows in the corporate environment anytime soon. The only way I can see a tablet on every desk in the near future is if they sit in a dock, which connects them to keyboard, mouse & monitor and which in turn then logs onto a terminal based system like Citrix. Which in essence means they'll be getting a Windows OS anyway and will need to know how to use one for content creation.

thebman · 14-06-2011 1:10pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Some sort of lightweight tablet device would be a good idea. Devices like these can also be centrally locked down so only authorised applications can run. It simply wouldn't be possible for kids to use them to browse random websites or play games etc. In our environment we can lock down both Android and IOS (Apple) devices, people worrying about kids being able to play games on these devices are worrying about nothing.

Yes but it isn't even a question of locking them down, the main problem is they aren't designed for the task at hand.

An e-reader is better if you just want to use it to replace books. A netbook/laptop is better if you want to replace all notebooks too and have homework handed in electronically.

However maths would always be the obvious obstacle to any of this as it is tedious to get special characters on most word processors.

Could always teach them how to write LaTeX documents

http://www.latex-project.org/

Capt'n Midnight · 14-06-2011 2:43pm

banquo wrote: »

Also also, have you seen most primary school teachers try to use a computer?!

no one is saying you need a full OS on a device used to deliver content

you can install sugar or android etc. on a netbook/pc/laptop

banquo · 14-06-2011 6:26pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

no one is saying you need a full OS on a device used to deliver content

you can install sugar or android etc. on a netbook/pc/laptop

I have a friend who's solution to every technology-related problem ever is ''Install Android on it!''

I think that tablets can be used for content creation as well as consumption. Not in every aspect though. I think for shorter problems like maths, spelling, etc they could work really well. Their obvious downfall is for writing long passages of text.

It's the software, not the hardware that this really comes down to. I remember when Tony Blair and Bertie Ahern came to my school when I was 13 and spoke for flippin' ages on education and technology. For the massive funding the school got to get a decent ISDN line and new computers, we never did anything, anything even remotely productive during our weekly computer class. It mostly involved typing up letters verbatim from some ancient 'IT' book.

Language education could work phenomenally well on a tablet device if the software is good and the people behind it are creative about it - not just porting existing schoolbooks to an app where you can 'flick' the page or something.

As for iOS vs Android: I think the iPad has a few things up on Android in this particular area, and I'm open to being wrong:

1. They already exist in mass production, with a (whopping, wow!) 10% educational discount.

2. They act almost identically to iPod Touches and iPhones, so there's a greater chance of the teacher being able to use it competently from day one (never, ever underestimate human stupidity)

3. There's a much larger pool of developers to choose from.

And then why iPads probably will be chosen if tablet devices were to become mainstream overnight:

1. They're popular right now.

2. People in government will have, like, heard of them. In my experience, members of government not being aware of even the existence of technology since the Sony Walkman is more of a barrier to progress than you would believe.

bk · 14-06-2011 9:48pm

Lots of interesting stuff here.

First of all, I can't believe, people are still hung up on porn. The truth is every child since time began has looked at porn. No matter what you do, your child will find a way to look at porn. If you seriously think your child hasn't looked at porn (obviously depending on age) then your seriously deluded.

Second there seems to be a question as to what is being used here.

If the point is to replace text books, then a A4 e-ink reader is better.

On the other hand an iPad can have a far greater variety of educational tools.

I believe education theory says that different people learn and take in information in different ways. Some learn best by reading, others by sound, while others by video and interaction. With an iPad all the different ways of learning can be delivered and this can be a massive bonus to children, in particular those with learning disabilities.

I've checked out some of the educational software and apps on the iPad and they are simply incredible.

As for why iPad versus other android tablets. Well first of all, any of the decent android tablets are the same or more expensive then the iPad. The cheaper Android tablets really do suck. But more importantly the iPad has a vast array of educational apps, while android tablets have almost non at this stage.

Of course this may change in time, but talking to friends in the educational software industry, the entire industry is currently focusing almost exclusively on iPad.

The Scientician · 21-06-2011 7:26pm

Can anyone with experience tell me what the breakdown rate on portable computers (iPads, laptops etc) would be? Like if you had 500 students, how often would a unit need to be fixed or replaced? I think when the pricepoint gets really low it won't be an issue, but if the school or parent has to fork out €100s when a unit breaks, if they break too often it just wouldn't be all that cost effective.

I imagine the best way, from a school's point of view to have e-learning would be to have a locked-in desktop at every desk, with an intranet and then maybe the kids having laptops for homework.

Noreen1 · 21-06-2011 9:21pm

http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/17/laptop-reliability-survey-asus-and-toshiba-win-hp-fails/

Replacing School books with Ipads??

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