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Game of Thrones A General Commentary (BOOK & SHOW SPOILERS)

  • 17-06-2014 3:46pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭


    So I'm probably going to be lamblasted for this being one of my only posts on this forum but i find Boards to be a great place for open debate.

    So I'd likely to make a couple of complaints, I'm sure a lot of these are nothing new, but there are a LOT of threads with a LOT posts so I couldn't read them all.

    I watched the 1st series and loved it, afterwards going and starting the series of books, which took me the bones of a year to finish. I found the 1st book and 1st series to be very alike and it started to deviate more and more as time went on (which is understandable as the show is a different being to the books).

    But I have to say after watching last nights finale, I could not give less of a **** about 90% of the characters. ESPECIALLY the Stark children.

    I'm actually aghast at whats going to be in Season 5 and 6. All those Greyjoys and Sand Snakes, like seriously.

    I'm going to throw petrol on the fire and say the George RR Martin is one of the WORST fantasy/heroic fiction writers I've ever read, 2nd only to maybe Terry Goodkind

    He doesn't know how to end a chapter or book without a "shock killing" and over and over he writes himself into a corner and ends up bringing characters back after supposedly killing them off,
    Cateyln Stark and The Onion Knight amongst others

    I actually found myself bored and disinterested during season 4, and it's a shame as looking back on the 1st 2 seasons in particular it was a different story.

    I just found the books from the 4th onwards to be a meandering mess.

    I also don't buy Danerys… I don't buy her motives, I don't buy her character, I don't buy her as an actress (with that smug kind of half smile / half thoughtful face). Why is still even bothering to reference Westeros, she seems happy out in Mereen.

    The charters are given 1 main goal and they never achieve it. It's a series build on dashed hopes.

    These are just some of my thoughts, and I know i'll probably get a lot of "oh if you don't like it, don't watch it" half-a**sed 'responses' for this post but I wanted to put these ideas to people who have both watched the show and read the books (and IDEALLY have read other fantasy fiction) as everyone I know has only watched the shows.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,323 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Cormac... wrote: »
    These are just some of my thoughts, and I know i'll probably get a lot of "oh if you don't like it, don't watch it" half-a**sed 'responses' for this post

    If you don't like it don't watch it...or read the books:pac:

    But honestly, if you don't like it why are you bothering with it at all?

    If I don't like a book etc. I don't cry about it, I just don't read it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    Blay wrote: »
    If you don't like it don't watch it...or read the books:pac:

    But honestly, if you don't like it why are you bothering with it?

    Would it not have been easier to just type "1st"?

    I take it you've never seen something you liked become something you didn't like and became annoyed/upset/disgruntled/frustrated by it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    tbh I had read the books before the series came out and by the time I got to a dance of dragons I was completely indifferent to it all, the endless procession of new characters replacing the ranks of the fallen did me in. I watch the TV show and enjoy it for what its worth

    The epic fantasy novel series is the wrong formula for what he's trying to do. That said, I do like the lore and general world that he's built. It would be great for a series of novellas or such.


    I also thought that Fevre Dream was a cracking little novel


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭nibtrix


    Being aghast that the next season is going to have lots of Greyjoys and Sand Snakes is rather silly, seeing as thet's what happened in the books as well! While the show has made some small changes and skipped a lot of background detail, they certainly haven't changed the focus of the books wholesale, the storylines are roughly the same.

    I agree that the later books become rather meandering but I think this is where the show does a great job, tightening up storylines and moving the action on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,323 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Cormac... wrote: »
    Would it not have been easier to just type "1st"?

    I take it you've never seen something you liked become something you didn't like and became annoyed/upset/disgruntled/frustrated by it?

    It's not that you don't like where the series HAS gone, it seems that you don't like the series full stop. You hate 90% of the characters by your own admissio including Dany, all the Stark children, the Greyjoys and the SS.

    If you're that set against it just stop reading because if you hate 90% of the characters that isn't going to change over the next 2 books. Save yourself the money.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    I agree with both the above. But thing is, by the time he introduces characters, I'm already invested in others and could not care less about the Greyjoys or the Snakes. It's just a case of throwing enough characters at a wall and seeing what sticks IMO (aghast was maybe not the right choice of words, more maybe "numb"). I like how the show is "tighter" then the books though, it's why I still enjoy it in ways, I'd actually find it tought to bring myself to read his next 2 or 3 books TBH. 3 years is a long time to wait especially if he goes the whole "Spilt-book" router again which he's hinted at


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    Blay wrote: »
    It's not that you don't like where the series HAS gone, it seems that you don't like the series full stop. You hate 90% of the characters by your own admissio including Dany, all the Stark children, the Greyjoys and the SS.

    If you're that set against it just stop reading because if you hate 90% of the characters that isn't going to change over the next 2 books. Save yourself the money.

    If you're going to Quote me, do it right, I don't hate them, I'm ambivalent towards them. Quotes are a great tool when you actually quote what the person is saying and not casting your own opinion over it like a impartial net ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,323 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Cormac... wrote: »
    If you're going to Quote me, do it right, I don't hate them, I'm ambivalent towards them. Quotes are a great tool when you actually quote what the person is saying and not casting your own opinion over it like a impartial net ;)

    'I could not give less of a **** about 90% of the characters' is not ambivalence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    Blay wrote: »
    'I could not give less of a **** about 90% of the characters' is not ambivalence.

    I don't hate, I don't love them, I don't really care either way

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambivalence


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,323 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Cormac... wrote: »
    I don't hate, I don't love them, I don't really care either way

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambivalence

    'Ambivalence is a state of having simultaneous, conflicting reactions towards some object', you're not conflicted, you said straight out that you 'could not give less of a ****'...real internal conflict there:pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,247 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Seven Kingdoms innit.
    Our tale started with the Starks of the North and The Lannisters of the Westerlands, no reason why it has to end with them.

    Perhaps he's always intended his story to be about how the peoples obsessed with blood lines, birthright and marriages were ultimately conquered by the cleverly uninvolved Skagosians who only get going in Book7.

    I'm cautiously content for him to tell his story the way he wants.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,033 ✭✭✭✭DvB


    I'd be happy for him to simply get to the end at this stage without dragging the ar*e out of it as per ADWD.... as the story nears ending he simply wont be able to throw new characters into the fray, he'll need to close it out with the ones he has left standing sooner rather than later given his meandering writing style in the more recent books.

    I have high hopes that the TV series will cut through the less interesting drawn out story arcs & will cut to the chase, IMo it will have to or people will lose interest & viewing figures will drop.
    "I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year" - Charles Dickens




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    DvB wrote: »
    I have high hopes that the TV series will cut through the less interesting drawn out story arcs & will cut to the chase, IMo it will have to or people will lose interest & viewing figures will drop.

    Based on what we know to be covered thus far in the books, and the fact its likely there will be 2 or 3 more (where 2 of the 3 are a 2 parter) and whats been covered in the TV show. How many series do you think it could run for.
    I always find from recent examples that a show with over 7 seasons starts to have serious dips in quality and that only truly iconic shows last for 9 seasons or beyond. I'd really really like to see this all wrapped up by season 7.

    BUT, and this is a big one, will we reach a point, and I think we will given the current timeframes, where the books and the shows are at the same point or where the TV show is waiting for the next book. That would be a showstopper. Imagine if at the end of Season 6 we were up to date (and I hope so as the next 2 seasons of the show will be containing the least interesting content from the books) that we need a book to be released to start season 7. Or if the show had to take a 1 year break. That would be a terrible thing IMHO


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭nibtrix


    Th've already said that they will go ahead of the books I think. GRR Martin has told them the outline of the rest of the story so they can finish the series if necessary. At the slow speed he releases books we could be waiting 20 years for him to finish the series!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,246 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    nibtrix wrote: »
    Th've already said that they will go ahead of the books I think. GRR Martin has told them the outline of the rest of the story so they can finish the series if necessary. At the slow speed he releases books we could be waiting 20 years for him to finish the series!
    But how much would it cost them in viewers? I know I'd not watch beyond the books simply because I find the books to be far superior to the show (and hence I prefer to maximize my enjoyment by reading the books first) and I doubt I'd be alone in that stance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,033 ✭✭✭✭DvB


    If the series passes the books out theres always the chance that GRRM will change the story for the future book releases depending on how happy he is with the TV 'ending', personally I dont think I'd mind that as I kind of treat them as 'almost' separate entities at this stage.

    FWIW, i reckon they'll have 7 seasons, 8 tops if they can get a decent ending that GRRM signs off on & IMO will do this long before the book ending is revealed (if it ever is) I cant see the show surviving a lengthy break to accommodate the books so it'll definitely finish up before the books are published, that's a given at this stage.
    "I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year" - Charles Dickens




  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,073 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    I thought they said it will be 7 seasons?

    Either way I'm ok with it, I think the show is better than the books overall anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Nody wrote: »
    But how much would it cost them in viewers? I know I'd not watch beyond the books simply because I find the books to be far superior to the show (and hence I prefer to maximize my enjoyment by reading the books first) and I doubt I'd be alone in that stance.

    This is just my opinion but I think that non book readers far outweigh book readers in numbers of viewers.

    Book readers who will stop watching if the show passes the books are a smaller number again.

    I'm a book reader watching with a non book reader and I discuss it in work with 3 non book reader viewers and 1 book reader non viewer. My non book reader husband is not going to stop watching because the tv show catches up with the books, and I'm not going to go into a different room to avoid it.

    I actually don't mind how the story is delivered, I just want to know what happens. I'll still read it even if the tv show gives the ending first.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,920 ✭✭✭Daith


    Nody wrote: »
    But how much would it cost them in viewers? I know I'd not watch beyond the books simply because I find the books to be far superior to the show (and hence I prefer to maximize my enjoyment by reading the books first) and I doubt I'd be alone in that stance.

    Be fairly tough for book readers who don't want to watch the show to avoid spoilers tbh.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    Daith wrote: »
    Be fairly tough for book readers who don't want to watch the show to avoid spoilers tbh.

    It's fairly tough to make it to 1pm Tuesday and Avoid Spoilers of any kind.

    Can I ask....many of the people who have read the books and "throughly enjoyed them", more-so even than the show, to the point they'd wait to watch the show till the books catch up.... Is this the 1st fantasy fiction series you've read? Cause honestly, GRRM is NOT that great a writer to warrant a prolonged break from the show. The books were only OK to a point then the got boring, that's my opinion. But the show can still be enjoyable in it's own right.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I LOVE the books but won't bother avoiding the show simply because there's no way that I'll be able to avoid spoilers.

    I'm something of a controversial fantasy fan in that I consider Lord of the Rings to be so badly written that even as a 14 year old, I didn't bother getting past about 150 pages. ASOIAF wouldn't have been the first fantasy series I read but perhaps the second or third. I've got the Malazan series in my "to read pile" so can't contrast with that but of the fantasy series I've read to date, ASOIAF is the only one I've ever considered worthy of a re-read. I recognise the huge pace shift between the 3rd and 4th books is a big problem for many and would love the chance to replace GRRM's editor on TWOW to avoid the over-use of "Nuncle" and "Nipples on a Breastplate" of the most recent two books in the series but honestly, I think most of the hate for AFFC and ADWD comes from those who speed read them (as I did on first read) looking for the high paced action of the earlier books (which incidentally, I think we'll see a return to in TWOW).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Sleepy wrote: »
    I'm something of a controversial fantasy fan in that I consider Lord of the Rings to be so badly written that even as a 14 year old, I didn't bother getting past about 150 pages.

    Lol, this made me laugh. I found LOTR really tough going first time I read it. It only improved for me with age and reading experience, I think the first time I read it I wasn't ready for the wordiness of it. I do appreciate it as a masterpiece now though, but in much the same way I appreciate Shakespeare, a hard slog but worth it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    It fails the same style test as Joyce does for me: if you need a second page to complete a sentence, you've failed at your use of the English language. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Sleepy wrote: »
    It fails the same style test as Joyce does for me: if you need a second page to complete a sentence, you've failed at your use of the English language. ;)

    I'm not usually a fan of having to do work to get the story out but I'll make an exception for Tolkien :)


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,073 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Ah LOTR is very well written imo, the first few chapters are a slog but once they leave the Shire, and particularly when they leave Rivendell it's as gripping as any book I've read.

    Tolkien had his eagles and Martin has his last minute Cavalry, they're not too far apart on some things :P

    I think Martin is a decent but not great writer, his books are deeply layered in terms of character and world building but I read them for the content rather than the prose. His style comes off as pretty trashy at times imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    It's the wait between books that's the killer!

    Sometimes I wish I only came across book series AFTER they are finished.

    I'm waiting on the next one from GRRM, another from Peter Brett, I spent years of my life waiting for Stephen King to finish the Dark Tower series........

    And of course I'm always afraid that either I'll die or the author will die before I get the rest of the story!


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,073 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    It's the wait between books that's the killer!

    Sometimes I wish I only came across book series AFTER they are finished.

    I'm waiting on the next one from GRRM, another from Peter Brett, I spent years of my life waiting for Stephen King to finish the Dark Tower series........

    And of course I'm always afraid that either I'll die or the author will die before I get the rest of the story!

    Dark Tower is high on my "to read" list. Most series I've read have been finished before I went near them, asoiaf and Harry Potter are the only ones I can think of where I had to wait for books! Shame Martin isn't as prolific as Rowling!

    Apparently Robin Hobb is doing another farseer book, but the last one had a pretty rounded ending with very few loose ends so the wait won't be bad for that one :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,135 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I think your second last sentence says it all for me Mickeroo.

    When I think of great prose writers I think of the likes of Douglas Coupland, Michael Herr, A.S. Byatt, Audrey Niffenegger etc. TBH, I've yet to come across a fantasy writer that writes beautifully. Martin has his moments (Tower of Joy dream is beautifully written) but has some real flaws... the closest I can think of is Anne Rice though that may be the power of nostalgia as much as anything else.

    I may yet give LOTR another chance as it was the first fantasy book I ever tried to read and, at the time, I thought it was so bad I ignored the genre for over a decade.


  • Administrators, Computer Games Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 32,073 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Mickeroo


    Sleepy wrote: »
    I may yet give LOTR another chance as it was the first fantasy book I ever tried to read and, at the time, I thought it was so bad I ignored the genre for over a decade.

    Similar to username123 I failed to read it the first time I tried as I was too young to have the patience for it (about 14). I think I read it when I was about 16 or 17 (and again in my early 20's after the first film came out). I found it easier after reading The Hobbit first and then reading the 3 LOTR books separately, 2nd time I read it I just read the omnibus.

    If you really struggle just skip the unexpected party chapter tbh!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Oh yeah, I recommend The Hobbit first!


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