The Mega Management Company thread

The_Conductor · 28-07-2004 8:54pm

Correct- we do not employ any management agents.
All the work is done by primarily by the chairperson (myself) and the secretary.
As a limited company we have to submit annual accounts to the company office and to the shareholders in the company (i.e. the owners of each of the apartments, 32 in total).
The reason we try to do everything ourselves, is to minimise the management charge for everyone (the vast bulk, about 70% of which goes on the different insurance policies we are obliged to have- the remainder on maintenance). There are only three people employed on a regular basis by the management company- 1) An electrician/plumber/architect/builder/painter/restorer guy (hes brilliant- if you want details PM me offlist), 2) Gardener (takes care of the grounds and lays rat poison and any other similar jobs that need to be done), 3) Utility guy who sorts out the garbage etc.
Any interaction needed with these people, with South Dublin Co.Co., with emergency services/utility companies/dispute resolution etc- is all done by one of us in our spare time- or more often than not- during work time, as we obvious have dayjobs to pay the bills.

Its a relatively small complex- only 32 apartments, the most vociferous shareholders in the management company (all the owners are shareholders) are obviously the owner occupiers- as opposed to those who simply rent out the apartments, and as its a quiet area there tends to be a good few older people/Philipino nurses/various religious - all of whom value their peace and quiet but might not necessarily have the funds to pay massive management fees- its about the only solution we have.

It is entirely possible for people to group together as a committee and organise to manage things in this manner. There also is a greater transparency- as you know exactly where your money is going. That said- you can become a local hate figure if you have to raise the management fee (it went up about 40% this year, following a reassessment of the insurable value of the blocks of apartments- prompting minor civil war).

If someone looks at me across the table at the AGM and asks me where their money was spent- I can, and do, account for each and every penny of it. What bugs the living daylights out of me- is people preaching from the sidelines, but not willing to roll up their sleeves and get and do something themselves.

BTW- had to call revenue earlier- anyone at all who pays management charges is entitled to tax relief at the marginal rate on the first Euro 197 of their management fee (as refuse collection is tax deductable). A breakdown of the management charge detailing that Euro 197 is for refuse disposal purposes, should suffice with the revenue commissioners for claiming a tax credit.

bmm · 30-08-2004 1:04pm

cardigan wrote:

- anyway, after 3 yrs of fighting with KPM I have given up, most of us have. We are not in a position to fire KPM as the developer has not handed over full ownership yet we have been told. The develpement has been finsihed a long time now but it takes 10 years to handover, that's what they said. KPM couldn't give a rats if we fired them anyway, sure they will have another Danninger develpment the very next day - I am of the opinion that Danninger (Zoe) and KPM are in cahoots.

We are in exactly the same position. Our complex in Dublin1 (60 apartments, 1 lift, 13 car spaces, electric gates, €1625) KPM and Danninger (Zoe) are our management company and developers and I have to agree with everything cardigan has said. Our problem is the block has a damp problem and after almost 8 years the complex has not been handed over. Does anyone know if after 10 years that's it?! the developer has got away with it and cannot be pursued to rectify the structural problems. Is this why KPM do nothing for the first 10 years? I would like to contact you offline cardigan to see how your situation is progressing because we need to get a move on before 10 years are up and our Homebond is void!

bmm · 30-08-2004 1:30pm

I forgot to ask does anyone have the names of good property managers in Dublin? I'm talking about a company that actually give a ****. A company that after ringing them 5 times they actually do something. I wouldn't mind paying €1500 if it was used constructively and the complex was well managed.

It's quiet unbelieveable how some property managers neglect their properties. Most of them would have you believe that gurriers and drug addicts roam the complexes day and night to save them having to do anything. KPM have to be the worst. They never never return phone calls, they see every apartment owner as a pest. I contacted them on 8 occasions over a 4 week period as carpet was falling off the stairs, they did nothing so I just gave up. Someone will fall down the stairs and put a big claim in that will hike up our fees again. Do you think KPM care? They couldn't give a ****...

Has anybody successfully switched property managers whilst the developer still ruled the common areas? If so how did you manage it? Did you have to get the support of the directors/developers before anything could be done?

Sztraik · 03-09-2004 11:18am

Hi all,

I left an apartment in Hollybrook Mews more than 2 weeks ago and the agency has still to refund my deposit. I rented many houses and never had a problem like with this agency now. I gave them more than 1 month written notice, left the house 1 day earlier, the house was inspected and no issue was found. I just don't understand why these people are not refunding me, they're always using lame excuses (the landlord is away, my manager is not here, etc.). Any advice? Should I go to a solicitor?
Anyway avoid MTS as it was the plague!

Sleipnir · 03-09-2004 11:21am

they're on Baggot st. Drop in and dont' leave until they give you a cheque.

Cuauhtemoc · 03-09-2004 1:46pm

the vast majority of the increase being a massive hike in insurance premiums

Insurance costs have skyrocketed

Just as regards rocketing insurance costs..the insurance on our complex dropped by 4 grand this year. So insurance prices are coming down.
My management company hasn't informed me of this (though i'm sure they will as they're accounts are quite detailed) it was from talking to the insurance company.
Always worth following up on.

The management are quick enough to demand extra during the year when they fall short. I wonder what the odds of a refund are?

Victor · 04-09-2004 4:00pm

Write them a letter saying you will be going to the Small Claims Court in the next two weeks if the deposit isn't forthcoming.

Sandy2004 · 06-09-2004 4:53pm

I was buying a 2 bed Duplex apt on Malahide Road and declined at last minute due to charges of €1,500 p.a.

Crazy Eyes! · 18-10-2004 11:21am

Howaya's,

Just bought an apartment. 2 bed ground floor. The f*ckers above us seem to be quite noisey which is fine but I was sure the insullation was supposed to drown this sh1t out.

I've spoken to the builder and he's assured me that the corking hasn't been removed and no such problem should exist. He seemed reluctant to help however I've asked him to drop by an listen for himself which he's agreed to.

So my question is, anyone know of a remedy to all this. Is it going to be a legal remedy or wha?

woody · 18-10-2004 11:47am

Shotgun dude and a lot of body bags problem sorted

silverman · 18-10-2004 12:33pm

just found this thread when searching KPM + Tramyard as I am seriously pissed off with this shower of ****wits - they threatened legal action to several tenants including me to recoup fee for this year as I hadn't paid because I was waiting for response to earlier letter where I asked for breakdown of costs - I also complained in writing about the carpark fee which went from e80 to e105 in 1 year - 31% increase when inflation running at 3% - but no explanation was forthcoming for anything. Anyway I agreed to pay fee in a few installments back in july and duly paid first installment but subsequently discovered that they never informed their solicitors of what we had agreed - I rang them and their office boy apologised and said he'd sort it but guess what? - he did **** all and 2 weeks ago I received another solictor's letter saying judgement was being registered against me when by now I've paid almost all of the fee!! I've managed to get this sorted by ringing their solicitors directly - probably just in time. I will gladly join in any effort to get these leeches ousted as management agernts for the Tramyard even if it requires legal action - I'm sure if their catalogue of ****-ups was gathered together there would be a good case against them.

capistrano · 18-10-2004 2:53pm

bmm wrote:

Has anybody successfully switched property managers whilst the developer still ruled the common areas? If so how did you manage it? Did you have to get the support of the directors/developers before anything could be done?

We, in Tolka Vale, switched from a crowd called Norths to KPM after the first couple of years - a typical case of out of the frying pan sand into the fire. But this change was driven mainly by the developers. If they don't want to change (and they haven't handed over) then you'll have difficulty changing.
You could call an EGM and vote on it. However, the developers may have some kind of preferential shares that allow them to veto these decisions.

capistrano · 18-10-2004 2:55pm

Sandy2004 wrote:

I was buying a 2 bed Duplex apt on Malahide Road and declined at last minute due to charges of €1,500 p.a.

That's pretty average - you won't do any better for a well run complex.

irlirishkev · 20-10-2004 11:44am

Mind me asking where you've just bought?

I've just bought a place aswell, though I'm first in the building, so there's no 'neighbours' yet. I'm dreading the day when people move in above me as I just know they're going to be noisy (sods law)..

Do those above you have wooden floors, or carpet? Is it possible what you're hearing is just a pair of high heels clip-clopping their way accross the room?

Kevin.

Sleipnir · 20-10-2004 11:50am

Yeah I could hear next door's kettle boil in my friend's new apartment in Kiltipper!
I also woke up during the night cos I thought I heard my son crying. That was next door too!
Don't make em like they used to.

The_Conductor · 26-10-2004 6:40pm

flav0rflav wrote:

Has anyone gone with Dubin Corp and their new rubbish collection scheme?

We elected to register as a business with them, and pay a weekly collection fee per bin, rather than the annual charge (have the blue stickers for the bins). It better suits us, as we get by with 10 wheelie bins between 23 apartments (and then we hire a skip every 3 months from Argus to get rid of stuff that is impossible to put in the wheelie bins).

Don't know if something like that might suit you- it was what we hammered out (eventually after much fighting with them), and we were hit for arrears as well

S.

capistrano · 01-11-2004 4:37pm

I really hate KPM!

I am currently selling my apartment and my solicitors have been requesting a copy of the Insurance Indemnity Certificate for the past three weeks to no avail.

The movers are booked and everything is arranged, but it now looks like I'll have to put off the closing date due to KPM's total lack of any service mentality! :mad:

jayc · 01-11-2004 11:08pm

Lived in Belmont Square development "ran" by KPM. Very poor level of service in general. Fee for a 2 bed apt this year was about €1200 and there are no lifts or electric gates in this development.
Have since sold but make sure that they send the original insurance indemnity certificate with the new owners noted on it to the bank. They didn't do this originally for me and it delayed the sale.

Wobs · 25-11-2004 4:04pm

Well, Well,

So were not the only ones who are stuck with the useless shower of a**holes better known as KPM.

I have an 2 Bed apartment in Linnetfields Square, Clonee. The fee is 865euro pa. So I don't seem to be getting as ripped off as some of you. The fee includes everything, gates, insurance, bins, landscaping(I'd just call it grass cutting) someone gets paid 20k a year to do this, once every 2 weeks for about 5 months of the year!!!!

We have had nothing but trouble with KPM from the start. They are also telling us that the Developers (Menolly Homes, do mot get me started on that pack of D*cks, talk about shoody workmanship) will not hand over control of the management Co. Although they have asked them many times to do so!!!!! Seems they cant get any developments handed over. They don't return calls, do nothing that is asked of them and always seem to pass the blame on somewhere else.

Piece of advise to anyone thinking of buying a property where KPM are the Management Co. DONT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S Does anyone want to buy a 2 bed apartment in a well maintained developement. Will do really great deal for any boards.ie readers!

The_Conductor · 01-12-2004 8:36pm

badbrian wrote:

I paid 1261 to my management co. (ODPM) in the year gone by. We are a small complex of 36 apartments. The largest cost is the management fee. It has gone up 10% for the last 3 years. I know i don't get those increases. Anyway i have asked them to keep their fee flat. There is no justification for it. They haven't kept costs down. We have no landscaping, no lifts, no electric gates, no CCTV. But i would like to know if anyone has heard of a reputable and reasonable management co.

Unfortunately I think if you check the annual financial breakdown of your management company- you will find that a massive chunk of this is insurance- and thereafter- they may operate a sink fund to save for painting the buildings (about every 4-5 years) window cleaning, lighting, solicitors fees, etc- they all add up.... Oh yes- refuse collection- thats over 200 per apartment in its own right as well.....

If you are an owner occupier- you are entitled to offset that part of your management charge that refers to refuse collection, against income tax at the marginal rate (current max level is 196 Euro) Get the management company to write you a note stating that you paid X (whatever the management fee is) of which Y (196 Euro) was for refuse collection. In total you will only get back about 40 Euro from the tax man- but better in your pocket than in the governments......

There are little ways of getting a few bob back- it is possible!!!

badbrian · 02-12-2004 12:54pm

SMcCarrick

Your input on this site has been excellent and I thank you for it (eg very handy to know about the tax relief on refuse). I admire your management company initiative because i know it would be a thankless task. If you are thinking of expanding and charging for it let me know. There is obviously a market for it.

Re my apartment block. I haven't the exact details to hand but I know that the proposed Management fee (13k) is c. 4-5k higher than the proposed insurance charge (c.8.5 - 9k), and the sinking fund is 5k pa. Most of the other costs in our budget are unavoidable and while i don't feel i get the value for the price I pay i accept them. It is the level of the management fee that i dispute. We have asked for a justification for it. There is little trouble with us. There are no debt collection issues carried forward. We rarely see or hear from them. They don't try to cap costs (because they simply pass them on).

How much would it cost to set up our own management company can you tell me? Was it difficult to remove the original mgt. co? And why don't you charge for your time (I certainly wouldn't mind doing it for a reasonable fee)? And would you be interested in expanding your management services?

Brian

The_Conductor · 02-12-2004 2:00pm

Thankyou for the compliment.
Unfortunately I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in taking on any additional work in the area, regardless of whether or not I were paid or not to do so.

Setting up a management company is really quite simple- for tax purposes its best if you form a limited company, and sort your finances so you never make a profit (i.e. plough any accumulated money (not that you are likely to have much) back into the complex).

The 1261 that you are currently being charged is a little more than we are charging (for a similar sized complex)- our current charge is 1050 (up from 800 last year, because we discovered our building insurance was not index linked :mad: )

Your sinking fund seems reasonable enough- you might get by with a bit less, but its prudent to have a sufficient cushion against unforseeable costs (or indeed planned expenditure).

If you're unhappy with the performance of the management company- organise a meeting with them and bring your queries to their attention (preferably in writing- as its a little more difficult for them to gloss over things....)

I agree, it is a lot of money- you do deserve to know where its going.

I would however state- that inspite of its level, as management charges go- its probably one of the lower ones- your management company are not making money on it.

S.

magpie · 02-12-2004 2:14pm

To bring this topic up again under a different umbrella...has anyone any experience of not being able to fire the management company because the developers are still the main shareholders and directors in the management company (made up of residents) and what did you do?

I moved into an apartment complex in ringsend about 4 years ago. The existing Property Management Company were KPM, who were ****e, not collecting bins, rubbish all over the place etc. There was no residents association as the majority of apartments were rented. I took it upon myself to get something organised so we eventually managed to get the communal areas transfered from Danninger to the Management Company of the Development. We appointed Irish Estates who then proceeded to not lodge accounts for the development for 2 years, a fact I only discovered when trying to sell my property. It then took me 9 months to get the accounts, insurance etc sorted out as none of this had been dealt with properly. Irish Estates not only didn't accept responsibility but also threatened to sue me for telling other residents about the outstanding issues. Eventually I sold the place and my advice to you all is the same as the advice I give everyone. If you have an apartment, sell it immediately.

Having spoken to friends who are estate agents / quantity surveyors the general view in the industry is that property management attracts the thickest, most underqualified and most ruthless people in the industry. The bottom-feeders if you will. Its a recession proof industry and it practically impossible to sue them as they are acting only as 'agents' for the Property Management Company of the Development, the share holders of which are the owners of each apartment. If you want to sue you have to sue all the other apartment owners.

There is only one way to go, and that is to set up a co-operative management company and do everything yourself. Do your own accounts, hire your own maintenance people, organise your own insurance. This is the only way to ensure you are not getting screwed, or as I have found out, that what you are paying for is getting done at all. If you're not willing to commit the time and effort to doing this resign yourself to getting milked for cash and receiving substandard service.

badbrian · 02-12-2004 2:29pm

I take your point about the 1,260 being a reasonable charge when compared to some of the costs talked about here but we have so little to maintain: no gates, no CCTV,no landscaping, no underground car park. I expect it to be closer to 1,500 for the coming year. And as we are running a current year deficit coupled with underproviding on rubbish removal next year it should probably be more like 1,600 or 1,700.
I do take issue with your point about not making any money on it. They have a junior person on the case and i am sure they spend very little time on it and would have many more complexes to look after.

I am asking them to justify their fee and have let them know I think their fee should remain as last year's until they can demonstrably prove they are managing it efficiently.

One other thing. Do you have to have an auditor or qualified accountant check your annual accounts that you submit?

The_Conductor · 02-12-2004 3:26pm

badbrian wrote:

One other thing. Do you have to have an auditor or qualified accountant check your annual accounts that you submit?

Definitively- and we distribute a copy of our financial statements to all apartment owners at our annual AGM- where we also decide the management charge for the coming year. We normally rent out a board room in the Spa hotel, and hold our AGM in May/June (a legacy of the tax year ending in April). Accounts are certified by a chartered accountant (a local practice) and all our legal matters are likewise dealth with by a local solicitor. We do have electric gates/barrier system in place- and have a business contract with SDCC for refuse collection (as opposed to a seperate wheelie bin for each resident). We also organise a skip every few months for any non-binnable items. No CCTV installed (as yet) but its something on the cards for the near future.

I sign the accounts as a director AFTER they are certified by an accountant- not before.

S.

capistrano · 02-12-2004 3:52pm

Strictly speaking, you only need audited accounts if your management company turnover is more than EUR250k (that might even have been an Irish Pound figure). So you can safe some money by choosing not to have an audit.

You should probably still have a qualified accountant prepare the financial statements and the abridged accounts for the Companies Registration Office.

magpie · 02-12-2004 3:58pm

CRO wanted audited accounts provided for our Management Company. Anything less they refused.

capistrano · 02-12-2004 4:51pm

This Basis link basis link describes how a company qualifies for an audit exemption.

In, particular it says that the amount of turnover of the company must not exceed €317,435, which must include most management companies.

magpie · 02-12-2004 6:43pm

Yep, I'm aware of that. And yet the CRO insisted that they receive audited accounts or they would strike the company off the register. You can argue it 'til you're blue in the face, but in the end what they say goes.

bohsboy · 03-01-2005 12:56pm

:mad: :mad: :mad: Absolute joke, 1,200 a year for very very little. Had my windows cleaned once in two years, non ending problems with all complexes, very litle feedback from Wallis Management, avoid these people with a barge pole.

But as an earlier poster said, all these problems could have been saved had it not been for those amateurs, Menolly Homes.....absolute dirt.

God, I'm pissed off again! :mad:

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The Mega Management Company thread