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Dawn of Television and 405 vs 625 vs 525

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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    625 line BBC2 did not come to NI until 1967 although it had begun in London area in 1964. See - http://www.tvhistory.btinternet.co.uk/html/ni.html Does anyone know when 625 line sets first went on sale in NI? Our very first set (bought in 1969) was one such 625 only set. Unfortunately we moved from Belfast to Larne 4 years later and BBC2 was the only channel we could recieve as the 625 line transmitter in Larne did not carry the other channels at that time so we had to buy a second hand dual standard set to get BBC1 and UTV!

    Thinking about it, since the TV was probably rented from a Nationwide chain, it's no surprise just North of Belfast we had a set with nothing on the UHF for ages.

    I have a strong belief that even off Divis UTV and BBC1 was only on 405 for a while after BBC 2 started. The regular Clunk/Crack is burnt into my brain!

    We moved Northwards too in late 1960s, but still got Divis. After I left home my mum moved to IslandMagee and got Sky Analogue early. Her receiver didn't get c5, I discovered she only realised it existed after she got Sky Digital. Early on she got TV from Scotland and then later there was a local relay. My Brother lives across the Lough from Larne. (I have photo someplace of him driving a capri across from Millbay, but that's another story)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,012 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    watty wrote: »
    Thinking about it, since the TV was probably rented from a Nationwide chain, it's no surprise just North of Belfast we had a set with nothing on the UHF for ages.

    I have a strong belief that even off Divis UTV and BBC1 was only on 405 for a while after BBC 2 started. The regular Clunk/Crack is burnt into my brain!

    This link here - http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/UTV -(scroll down page to 1970's) says UHF 625 line UTV started from Divis in September 1970. What about BBC 1 625 line? I can remember watching Wimbledon on our 625 line set in 1969 (must have been BBC 2 only) and other channels mustn't have come on air but certainly can't remember not receiving BBC1/UTV and definitely remember watching 1970 FA Cup final on that TV on BBC1!


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    OK so BBC2 in 1967 and UTV on 14th of September 1970. That makes sense and explains why we used the 405line AFTER BBC2 started

    http://tx.mb21.co.uk/info/625/index.shtml
    he first group of high-power stations so far planned is shown below; each station has been assigned four channels, one for BBC-2 and the others for possible future services. The BBC-2 Channel is shown in heavy type.

    BBC2 was on its own at the start of 625 lines.
    Divis however became the UHF main station for Belfast and surrounding area with BBC2 the first regular service commencing 18 March 1967. Colour UHF transmitters for BBC1 and ITV came into operation in September 1970.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divis

    When did C4 start on Divis? After nov 1982 I think


    http://www.irish-tv.com/405.asp
    (our very own Richard Logue )


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,012 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    watty wrote: »
    OK so BBC2 in 1967 and UTV on 14th of September 1970. That makes sense and explains why we used the 405line AFTER BBC2 started

    http://tx.mb21.co.uk/info/625/index.shtml


    BBC2 was on its own at the start of 625 lines.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divis

    When did C4 start on Divis? After nov 1982 I think


    http://www.irish-tv.com/405.asp
    (our very own Richard Logue )

    Thanks for info but still confused over BBC1 625 line. Did it not start until Sept. 1970 from Divis? If so how can I remember definitely watching 1970 FA Cup Final (as well as 1970 World Cup) from BBC1 on a single standard set 625 line? Any help on this would be appreciated.
    As regards C4 can clearly remember the opening of the station in early Nov. 1982 from Divis along with most of the rest of the UK. See - http://www.tvhistory.btinternet.co.uk/html/landmark.html (scroll down to 1980's).


  • Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    The first set I remember in our house (Belfast, 1969) was duel standard and I remember using the "big clunky button" (or rather remember trying to reach it) to watch BBC1, so Watty, you must be right in that while BBC2 was up and running the others were still 405.
    Ch 4, or rather the IBA testcard appeared in NI early in 1982. Wiped out our BBC1 Scotland - I seem to remember my Dad wasn't best pleased, though a new mast and Group B got him Cambret Hill.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,012 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    SRB wrote: »
    The first set I remember in our house (Belfast, 1969) was duel standard and I remember using the "big clunky button" (or rather remember trying to reach it) to watch BBC1, so Watty, you must be right in that while BBC2 was up and running the others were still 405.

    Do you not mean 405 line?


    [he did. Fixed :) (mod edit)]


  • Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    opps you got in before my edit, yup 405 !


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,012 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    Still haven't found any definite link to when BBC1/UTV started 625 line transmission from Divis. If it was September 1970 this must have meant there were no B/W 625 line transmissions on these 2 channels before colour kicked in but both B/W 625 line and colour started simultaneously.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Incidently Id like to learn a bit more about the origins of System I but maybe thats one for the "History" board.


    http://books.google.ie/books?id=gfeCXlElJTwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=brian+winston+media+technology+and+society&lr=#v=onepage&q=&f=false

    Brian Wilson's Media and Technology is a good history of Telecommunications. IMO.

    RTÉ had both from what I gathered in something I was reading recently. They had the UK system for those using it and also the European system. I must look that up again.


    From Richard Logue:
    And so it came to pass that an "Irish Solution to an Irish Problem" was adopted. Telefis Eireann would broadcast in 625 lines VHF across the country, however in the North and East of Ireland where BBC and ITV were available Telefis Eireann would also be available on 405 lines for those viewers who already had a 405 line set.

    How did the cable companies work it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Cable was AFAIK only 625 and later.

    Actually I remember reading Evesham carried 405 RTE.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    As far as I know the cable companies carried both 405 and (when available) 625 versions of all channels (except BBC2 which was 625 only) until at least the late seventies.

    But maybe someone who actually lived in cableland at the time can confirm/correct this ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Ah, but WHICH cable land.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Well given that most (all ?????) of the cable systems outside of Dublin date from 1980 or after I would say Dublin (of course it may have varied between the different companies operating within Dublin)


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Did many cable companies provide RTÉ on their service in the 1960s? Could you get RTE on cable in the north or did the north have many cable companies?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,641 ✭✭✭zilog_jones


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_television#United_Kingdom

    Apparently cable systems in the UK were only legally allowed to transmit UK terrestrial channels up until 1984. Not what happened outside of the law though...

    Cable TV in the UK is not very common at all compared to here, never mind in the '60s.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_television#United_Kingdom

    Apparently cable systems in the UK were only legally allowed to transmit UK terrestrial channels up until 1984. Not what happened outside of the law though...

    Cable TV in the UK is not very common at all compared to here, never mind in the '60s.

    That's correct, Sky Channel was only made available in the UK in 1984, it had been in operation in parts of Europe since 1982 (not owned by News Corp) under the name of Satellite Television. Swindon Cable was one of the first to carry it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_television#United_Kingdom

    Apparently cable systems in the UK were only legally allowed to transmit UK terrestrial channels up until 1984. Not what happened outside of the law though...

    Cable TV in the UK is not very common at all compared to here, never mind in the '60s.

    Seems they called it piped TV over there also! I will let everyone know in the other forum. OTT

    Back with the systems used.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Elmo wrote: »
    Could you get RTE on cable in the north or did the north have many cable companies?

    Cable only came to Northern Ireland in the mid-late 1990's. Oficially Cabletel/NTL/Virgin hold the franchise for "Northern Ireland" (i.e. all of NI) in practice only parts of Belfast and L/Derry are cabled (Apparently the latter network is analouge only)

    In Belfast RTE and TG4 (no TV3) are on digital cable (Channels 875/876 etc) but the picture seems to be sourced from analouge and horribly cropped.

    I have never heard anyone in NI call it "piped" anything
    Apparently cable systems in the UK were only legally allowed to transmit UK terrestrial channels up until 1984.

    So what about the relays of RTE Watty (and others) have referred to ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    So what about the relays of RTE Watty (and others) have referred to ?

    In ROI only areas with over the air access to BBC/ITV reception via NI and Britain were allow to have cable as it improved reception. Thats not to say that other areas didn't have some cable areas. About 40% of the pop could receive BBC/ITV before 1961 launch of RTÉ. This rule was introduced to allow RTÉ to develop with out competition in other areas. Don't know when the ban was removed. Hence all of the cable companies carried BBC 1, 2 and Channel 3 (UTV or TWW/TTW???). And why RTÉ TWO began broadcasting.

    Which brings us nicely back to the point that RTÉ use the 405 and 625 lines in some areas. Have I got my lines right?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Elmo wrote: »
    Which brings us nicely back to the point that RTÉ use the 405 and 625 lines in some areas. Have I got my lines right?

    Lines right but not grammer They used 405 and 625 but nowadays they only use 625 (oh and do some tests with some 1080 digiwhotsit) :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,641 ✭✭✭✭Elmo


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Lines right but not grammer They used 405 and 625 but nowadays they only use 625 (oh and do some tests with some 1080 digiwhotsit) :D

    I wonder if the Irish Time had letters into them about 405 v 625 back in 1961. It's just like the MPEG-2 v MPEG-4 debate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,012 ✭✭✭Digifriendly


    Just to bump this thread up again I still have not got a definitive answer to my query regarding start of BBC1/UTV 625 line from Divis. Websites only give date of start of colour transmissions on these channels from Divis. I can clearly remember watching 1970 European Cup Final (Celtic vs Feyenord - think it was only on UTV) on single standard 625 line set. Have come across an excellent site re TV transmitters and their history and have e mailed my query there. The site is http://www.thebigtower.com/live/INDEX/Index.htm


  • Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    You could always e-mail Arqiva, they might know, though I'd say any chances of anyone still being there who would know are pretty slim.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,021 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    watty wrote: »
    Actually I remember reading Evesham carried 405 RTE.

    Was/Is there a particularly large Irish Ex-pat community in that part of the world ? (Wikipedia describes it as "is a rural market town in Worcestershire") Or is it a case of them just deciding to carry it because it happened to be available ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 820 ✭✭✭SRB


    From the BBC NI website, note on the start of colour from Divis :
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/archive/chronicle/popups/1970s/document1_image1.shtml


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