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Man Vs Black belt Woman?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Chris89


    NG-DOC wrote: »
    I presume you mean a female Aikoka who is fully committed could defeat a male who wasn't trained in in "aikido match" or whatever the term is?

    If you are suggesting that a female trained in aikido would beat an untrained man of similar size in a real life street fight/organized full contact fight. I'm afraid i'm definitely going to have to call you out on that one.

    This + 1000.

    I'm notsure if aikido has a competitive element. To be honest any footage ive seen is of 10-15 seemingly compliant martial artists, running aimlessly at some old guy and letting him flip them over.

    Fights (not talking about fight sports, but cringe at people saying street fight) are won and lost by either a huge haymaker or a load of lads jumping in. Unfortunately, the Jackie chane esque scenes that most of you seem to expect, are a load of bollocks and would never happen in the real world.

    Katie taylor would beat my ass up. Some girl with sick wrestling would beat me up, same for Thai and kickboxing. But not aikido or similar. No way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Your average muppet on the street who would windmill till he gassed out would beat the snot out of most Black belt women, In saying that the women in theory should be able to beat females who are the aggressors, the likes of Katie Taylor handles males of a very good standard in Boxing and would not go in the category im writing about here and would bust most lads faces into mush quite quickly, then the victim would prob get beaten again by males who would step in to give the women beater another going over for been a creep.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Craptacular


    cowzerp wrote: »
    Your average muppet on the street who would windmill till he gassed out would beat the snot out of most Black belt women.
    Presumably if BB women can't beat average muppets then BB men will have similar problems with muppets that are bigger than them? So martial arts are a waste of time (except boxing because Katie Taylor is a girl and she could beat average muppets)?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Presumably if BB women can't beat average muppets then BB men will have similar problems with muppets that are bigger than them? So martial arts are a waste of time (except boxing because Katie Taylor is a girl and she could beat average muppets)?

    Martial arts? depends which 1, lots would struggle in a real fight-mainly the non competitive pressure tested ones, So Thai would be ok, Boxing, BJJ, Sanshou-i'm not going to name everything that actually fights with some reality involved!!

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Craptacular


    But female BBs in those martial arts would be destroyed by an average muppet? And, since we're not being sexist, presumably male BBs in those arts would get the snot kicked out of them by a muppet bigger than them who windmills until he gasses out?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Chris89


    To continue my post about the female aikido bb. The same would be the case for a male as far as I'm concerned.

    There is martial arts. And there is fighting.

    I may not hold an aikido blackbelt. But I reckon I could knock someone out or end a fight quickeR than they could. Whether they were male or female. and I'm
    not even that good at boxing.

    And to craptacular (ironic), I don't know if you are trying to play devils advocate. But your last post attemps to poke at cowzers argument without presenting one of it's own. Everyone can ask loaded questions. Weak.

    My uncle has his own kenpo karate school. I may not agree with a lot of the techniques they use, but I know fr sure that he would kick the **** out of me. Not by utilising the dragon claw. But by decking me too hard in the nut.

    There's a huge difference in my opinion, with sparring at te end of your aikido class. And an actual fight. Huge. Massive. Gargantuan.


  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭Jayo_M


    Chris89 wrote: »
    There's a huge difference in my opinion, with sparring at te end of your aikido class. And an actual fight. Huge. Massive. Gargantuan.

    The same could be said about amateur boxing and BJJ, no?


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Craptacular


    Chris89 wrote: »
    I don't know if you are trying to play devils advocate. But your last post attemps to poke at cowzers argument without presenting one of it's own. Everyone can ask loaded questions. Weak.

    Well pardon me. I didn't realise I'd broken the Rules of the Internet.

    My point is simple. It's sexist garbage to claim that a female BB would be beaten by an average muppet but not extend that to male BBs and if we extend it to male BBs then martial arts are a waste of time. Otherwise we'll just have to forget the sexism and open minds to the possibility that there are female BBs out there who could hand out a beating to an average muppet if the situation arose.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Chris89


    Jayo_M wrote: »
    The same could be said about amateur boxing and BJJ, no?

    About bjj yeah, cause when we roll/spar there's no striking so it's not a fight. I can't remember the last time I saw an armbar outside coppers. Same way you wouldn't see anyone catching a real punch and making one of those flips like I see aikidos do on YouTube.

    But surely amateur boxing is pretty close to a streetfight? A good boxer, male or female or even shemale would wreck me, or most lads who don't box r similar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Chris89


    Well pardon me. I didn't realise I'd broken the Rules of the Internet.

    My point is simple. It's sexist garbage to claim that a female BB would be beaten by an average muppet but not extend that to male BBs and if we extend it to male BBs then martial arts are a waste of time. Otherwise we'll just have to forget the sexism and open minds to the possibility that there are female BBs out there who could hand out a beating to an average muppet if the situation arose.

    Men are stronger than women. Fact

    some martial arts are rubbish in a real fight. My opinion.

    I'm not sexist.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 181 ✭✭Corcioch


    sxt wrote: »
    The girl in question was taekwondo but she said it didn't matter...I am probably wrong here but can't you get a black belt without ever sparring/ fighting? or being strong? Is it all about learning off moves?


    You can get a black belt in Tae Kwon Do without even being able to effectively kick above your waist.

    I practiced TKD for several years before moving on . . .to Judo . . .and while TKD is a very enjoyable sport if you compete . . .and is an enjoyable exercise for man and women . . . . it is not taught anymore in my experience as a martial art, it nothing like Krav or BJJ or Judo etc . .

    I would go so far as to say its an enjoyable sport but thats about it imo.

    But like many have said here, its not so much the art as mostly the artist that makes the difference. . . .but its not 100% the artist either to be fair, the art and what is learned, taught and practiced does make some difference, ill illustrate what I mean with an example.

    Take 2 good strong agressive individuals, fairly equal . . . .send one off to train at TKD, be it ITF or WTF . . .send the other off to Mauy Thai . . . . .after a year or two of hard training I know who my money would be on . . . .the one with the tough shins!!!!!!! lol





    And all belts are good for is holding your trousers up . . . . . B Lee.


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Craptacular


    Chris89 wrote: »
    Men are stronger than women. Fact

    some martial arts are rubbish in a real fight. My opinion.

    I'm not sexist.
    Yes, most men are stronger than most women but we're discussing black belts against average muppets. Assume for a second it's a black belt in one of the arts that are not, in your opinion, rubbish in a real fight. Since you brought up strength are you now suggesting that training is useless if the untrained opponent is stronger?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭NG-DOC


    Yes, most men are stronger than most women but we're discussing black belts against average muppets. Assume for a second it's a black belt in one of the arts that are not, in your opinion, rubbish in a real fight. Since you brought up strength are you now suggesting that training is useless if the untrained opponent is stronger?

    I can't speak for chris, but clearly if you take an average well built 90kg man who is strong, versus experienced tae kwon do black belt who is 60kg and frail, it's pretty obvious who's going to get crushed. So in my opinion yes training is useless to some extent depending on the size of the person.

    This argument for the most part has turned ridiculous because there is so many variables to a fight it's ridiculous. oh what if he's big and has a hat, oh what if the woman is strong but the man has big hands, what if the man gets kicked in the nuts but it doesn't really hurt and the woman has a black belt in karate. We could do this all day.

    My opinion is, the majority of men, black belt or not, will more than likely be able to beat up any woman, black belt or not, if they really wanted to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Chris89


    NG-DOC wrote: »
    I can't speak for chris, but clearly if you take an average well built 90kg man who is strong, versus experienced tae kwon do black belt who is 60kg and frail, it's pretty obvious who's going to get crushed. So in my opinion yes training is useless to some extent depending on the size of the person.

    This argument for the most part has turned ridiculous because there is so many variables to a fight it's ridiculous. oh what if he's big and has a hat, oh what if the woman is strong but the man has big hands, what if the man gets kicked in the nuts but it doesn't really hurt and the woman has a black belt in karate. We could do this all day.

    My opinion is, the majority of men, black belt or not, will more than likely be able to beat up any woman, black belt or not, if they really wanted to.

    speak for me all you want, that's pretty much how I feel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Craptacular


    NG-DOC wrote: »
    I can't speak for chris, but clearly if you take an average well built 90kg man who is strong, versus experienced tae kwon do black belt who is 60kg and frail, it's pretty obvious who's going to get crushed. So in my opinion yes training is useless to some extent depending on the size of the person.
    Then I have to ask what is the point in anyone training in any martial art if the outcome of a fight with an untrained individual is pretty much down to size of the people fighting? Is it all just a big scam?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Chris89


    Yes, most men are stronger than most women but we're discussing black belts against average muppets. Assume for a second it's a black belt in one of the arts that are not, in your opinion, rubbish in a real fight. Since you brought up strength are you now suggesting that training is useless if the untrained opponent is stronger?

    You are answering this question yourself. Obviously if theartial art is good in a real fight and the individual is worth his salt as a black belt then he r she will win.

    As Darragh said, there is a too many variables here to even consider arguing about it.

    The only way to discuss it. Is to make generalizations. And we don't seemto be able to agree on them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Chris89


    Then I have to ask what is the point in anyone training in any martial art if the outcome of a fight with an untrained individual is pretty much down to size of the people fighting? Is it all just a big scam?

    captain question strikes again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭NG-DOC


    Then I have to ask what is the point in anyone training in any martial art if the outcome of a fight with an untrained individual is pretty much down to size of the people fighting? Is it all just a big scam?

    Well there is quite a lot of answers to this, but i'll try address some.

    Training in martial arts can give you confidence, confidence in general is often key to avoiding conflict in the first place. Training also teaches you patients which can also be useful in conflict/conflict prevention.

    Some people train martial arts for fitness

    Some people train martial arts as a sport

    I would also say that yes, quite a lot of martial arts are big scams, but that of course is circumstancial and depends entirely on the gym/dojo and it's marketing and what it's intending to teach.

    Even brazilian jiu jitsu, considered for the most part to be the most superior martial art in terms of real life self defense, has it's flaws. There is no one system that you can learn that will result in instant victory in any street fight situation regardless of opponent.

    People train martial arts for hundreds of reasons. maybe you could start a separate thread with that as the topic?

    Finally, i never said it was all down to size. it's a critical factor for sure, but if a small man runs up behind a big man and smashes a bottle over his head, it kind of changes the situation. Yet again, the variables are far too many.


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Craptacular


    Chris89 wrote: »
    You are answering this question yourself. Obviously if theartial art is good in a real fight and the individual is worth his salt as a black belt then he r she will win.
    Except it can't be obvious as you and NG-DOC just agreed that it's the size of the dog in the fight that determines the winner. You can't have it both ways.

    NG-DOC thanks for the long post but I'm not really looking to repeat the discussion on why people train. I think training and experience will stand to a person in a fight but obviously not everyone agrees.

    (And just to keep Chris happy not a single question)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭NG-DOC


    Except it can't be obvious as you and NG-DOC just agreed that it's the size of the dog in the fight that determines the winner. You can't have it both ways.

    NG-DOC thanks for the long post but I'm not really looking to repeat the discussion on why people train. I think training and experience will stand to a person in a fight but obviously not everyone agrees.

    (And just to keep Chris happy not a single question)

    i didn't say that size was the only factor.

    training experience definitely counts in a fight. but yet again, it's not the only factor.

    are you starting to see the pattern here?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭HellsAngel


    Corcioch wrote: »
    You can get a black belt in Tae Kwon Do without even being able to effectively kick above your waist.

    So what TKD club where you supposed to be in ?
    I practiced TKD for several years before moving on . . .to Judo . . .and while TKD is a very enjoyable sport if you compete . . .and is an enjoyable exercise for man and women . . . . it is not taught anymore in my experience as a martial art, it nothing like Krav or BJJ or Judo etc . .
    Ah yes Krav Maga, now that's the real deal...." There is probably no other Martial Art system in the world more street and battle-tested than Krav Maga........ earn to protect yourself with the devastating Self Defence and hand to hand combat skills used by the Israeli Special Force......all in just a few easy lessons for the cost of $$$$$$ " Blah, blah, blah, :pac:
    Take 2 good strong agressive individuals, fairly equal . . . .send one off to train at TKD, be it ITF or WTF . . .send the other off to Mauy Thai . . . . .after a year or two of hard training I know who my money would be on . . . .the one with the tough shins!!!!!!! lol
    Take 2 good strong agressive individuals, fairly equal . . . .send one off to train at Krav Maga . . .send the other off to Mauy Thai . . . . .after a year or two of hard training I know who my money would be on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭NG-DOC


    HellsAngel wrote: »


    Take 2 good strong agressive individuals, fairly equal . . . .send one off to train at Krav Maga . . .send the other off to Mauy Thai . . . . .after a year or two of hard training I know who my money would be on.

    What if we take one individual who has trained muay thai and some tae kwon do, but is 65kg and wears glasses and another individual who won the bjj world championships is 105kg but is drunk and has a sore leg? who's the money on now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Craptacular


    NG-DOC wrote: »
    i didn't say that size was the only factor.

    training experience definitely counts in a fight. but yet again, it's not the only factor.

    are you starting to see the pattern here?
    I'm not suggesting it's the only factor but neither am I dismissing the training required to get a black belt out of hand as some posters here have done.

    So if it's not just size and training and experience count then I can't help wondering what makes people so sure the hypothetical average windmilling muppet will beat the hypothetical female black belt.

    Obviously this is all generalisations and pretty much nonsense but I believe the female BB would have a decent chance.

    (Be careful with the questions, you might anger Chris.)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭NG-DOC


    I'm not suggesting it's the only factor but neither am I dismissing the training required to get a black belt out of hand as some posters here have done.

    So if it's not just size and training and experience count then I can't help wondering what makes people so sure the hypothetical average windmilling muppet will beat the hypothetical female black belt.

    Obviously this is all generalisations and pretty much nonsense but I believe the female BB would have a decent chance.

    (Be careful with the questions, you might anger Chris.)

    yes it is pretty much nonsense, i can agree with you on that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Craptacular


    NG-DOC wrote: »
    What if we take one individual who has trained muay thai and some tae kwon do, but is 65kg and wears glasses and another individual who won the bjj world championships is 105kg but is drunk and has a sore leg? who's the money on now?

    The one with the gun of course.... unless one's a female in which case the male.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭NG-DOC


    The one with the gun of course.... unless one's a female in which case the male.

    the guy with the gun never trained using one before tho. the other guy has a black belt in taking guns off people too.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,212 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    sxt wrote: »
    I was speaking to a girl in work today and she was convinced that when a girl becomes a black belt in martial arts ,which her friend is, than she would have the beating of any untrained man of her equilvalent weight?
    Just being male does not a fighter make. It's not a gender issue fighting the "untrained;" rather it depends upon the extent of the training (and if SD was a substantial component), skill, conditioning, flexibility, speed, and experiences fighting of the black belt; i.e., is the black belt more qualified to street fight with past demonstrated ability? If the black belt was not bought (which many are, no matter the MA), but rather truly skilled and experienced sparring a lot, the "untrained" is toast in most cases, unless the "untrained" gets a lucky shot and exploits it quickly (You can never rule out luck. Just ask the Red Baron of WWI).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Have you ever fought a female Aikidoka? Like actually fought, with hard contact?

    No. But in any training session they were always harder to train with than the men. Sure the men could slam you harder, bu the women always had better technique. And ultimately technique will beat slamming you down.
    NG-DOC wrote: »
    I presume you mean a female Aikoka who is fully committed could defeat a male who wasn't trained in in "aikido match" or whatever the term is?

    If you are suggesting that a female trained in aikido would beat an untrained man of similar size in a real life street fight/organized full contact fight. I'm afraid i'm definitely going to have to call you out on that one.

    Absolutely she would. Take an Aikido class and learn.
    Chris89 wrote: »
    This + 1000.

    I'm notsure if aikido has a competitive element. To be honest any footage ive seen is of 10-15 seemingly compliant martial artists, running aimlessly at some old guy and letting him flip them over.
    Aikido doesn't have a competitive element (except Tomiki style or 'sport Aikido' - which actually makes for worse fighters -I've trained both - the non competitive ones way better). You've obviously never taken an Aikido class. Those guys are NOT compliant - they just know when they are beaten and take protective manouvers. If you put a randomer or other martial artist up against that same old man, they wouldn't submit and the first throw would be the end of the fight cause they wouldn't get up again. You also almost never see these guys go full on. Some of the 'hardest' aikido vids you will see are of steven Seagal actually (not his movies - training vids)

    Best Aikidoka I ever saw was a fat 50 something year old Scottish lad who looked and sounded like Rab C Nesbitt. But **** me I have never, ever seen anyone move like that round fat guy. He was always moves ahead of anyone - no one coudl get anywhere near him.
    Fights (not talking about fight sports, but cringe at people saying street fight) are won and lost by either a huge haymaker or a load of lads jumping in. Unfortunately, the Jackie chane esque scenes that most of you seem to expect, are a load of bollocks and would never happen in the real world.
    Agree with you there
    Katie taylor would beat my ass up. Some girl with sick wrestling would beat me up, same for Thai and kickboxing. But not aikido or similar. No way.

    Why not ? Of course they would. Take a class and find out cause I can tell you right now you don't understand Aikido and have the completely wrong idea.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,158 ✭✭✭Chris89




    Are these the ones you are talking about??
    There is no way this dude isnt being fully compliant.

    And if he isnt, then how crap must he be at aikido? do these techniques only work against people who dont train, or do they work against aikidokas too?

    I take your point, i have never been to an aikido class and i do know very little about it. Im just making the point that it looks fairly useless to the untrained eye, from what i can see, that lads only 'attacks' are running straight at seagal with his hands slightly raised.

    Anyway, i really dont want to get in to any argument about whats effective and whats not effective, I am nowhere near qualified enough in any field to do so!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Doug Cartel


    Oops, looks like I somehow got sxt and opinion guy confused. Sorry about that sxt.

    Opinion guy, you have some odd opinions.


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