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Time to burn Greece?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Damian_ir wrote: »
    If we suppose that this is totally right, who are the associates of the corrupted Greeks ?

    You will find them among German companies that are associated with Germany as a government. A few of these relations has started to come up in Athens.

    I don't know if this is a pre-election publicity game but if it is not, i ll fill you in.

    I can't help but notice the similarities with how many people here blame the Germans for what happened. They say it was the Germans fault, you ask them to prove it and they repeat it was the Germans fault. And on it goes, not a whiff of proof is ever forthcoming.

    There are plenty of reports of tax evasion and corruption in Greece, by Greeks. Do you really think saying "Look look over there it's Germany" is going to distract people and make it magically all go away.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Damian_ir


    I would like to have an answer to the following ridles please:

    1. How come , according to Eurostat , despite Greeks are the so called "corrupted" they are not lazy at all because they are on top of the list of the people that works many hours per week(even 2 years ago) ? And i don't mean now, because country is collapsing along with economy . How you can explain that people that are corrupted won't stay at home to bludge ?

    2. If hou had to pay your taxes but you knew that someone would steal them before reaching social services, would you have done it in the first place ?

    3. How come bludgers and corrupted worthless people spend one year of their life serving(without any payment at all) the army to protect country's borders , that happens to be Europe's borders and not spend that period to study or to develop skills ?

    People in Greece hasn't got the luxury of true Justice, something that is basic in most of the countries of the western Europe. So don't expect from the people there to simply ... just pay your taxes, and don't judge them easily unless you go and live there for 1-2 years...

    The same corrupted people that always doing the negative rebranding for the public image of the country are the same people that receives briefcases by overseas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Damian_ir wrote: »
    I would like to have an answer to the following ridles please:

    1. How come , according to Eurostat , despite Greeks are the so called "corrupted" they are not lazy at all because they are on top of the list of the people that works many hours per week(even 2 years ago) ? And i don't mean now, because country is collapsing along with economy . How you can explain that people that are corrupted won't stay at home to bludge ?
    Irrelevant. Some of the most corrupt politicians and businessmen Ireland has known have been hard working. Same goes for Greece.
    Damian_ir wrote: »
    2. If hou had to pay your taxes but you knew that someone would steal them before reaching social services, would you have done it in the first place ?
    I have seen that the Greek people are more than capable of mobilising in violent protest. They are also given a vote. Why don't the Greeks put their own people forward for election and vote for some fresh blood. The answer is not tax evasion. The answer is to make sure the money goes where it is supposed to go.

    This sorry mess might be the best thing to happen to Greece for decades if this corruption can be sorted out, don't you agree? (same goes for Ireland)
    Damian_ir wrote: »
    3. How come bludgers and corrupted worthless people spend one year of their life serving(without any payment at all) the army to protect country's borders , that happens to be Europe's borders and not spend that period to study or to develop skills ?
    Greece could have opted out of Schengen if it wanted to. Ireland and the UK are not members. Greece opted in, knowing full well it had a very open border. There is currently debate in Germany and France about the reintroduction of border checks along their borders with southern and eastern member states as the border controls are so lacking that illegal migrants are easily making their way to the core countries.
    Damian_ir wrote: »
    People in Greece hasn't got the luxury of true Justice, something that is basic in most of the countries of the western Europe. So don't expect from the people there to simply ... just pay your taxes, and don't judge them easily unless you go and live there for 1-2 years...
    Same in most places unfortunately. Generally the more money sou have, the more "justice" you can avail of. That is certainly the case in the UK and Ireland and Germany too for that matter.

    To be honest Damian a lot of what you claim sounds like the excuse Irish people had for our country's failings: It was always the fault of the Brits. We (mostly) have moved on from this mentality and many people can see that it's our own people and our own attitudes that are at the root of our problems. Greece seems some way away from this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    They do the most hours because they have more self-employed people than anywhere else. These are the same people that lie about their taxes, so why should anyone believe them about hours worked?

    I'm self employed too, and do a lot of hours. Most of them are slacking off posting on boards and avoiding tax tho!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Damian_ir wrote: »
    If we suppose that this is totally right, who are the associates of the corrupted Greeks ?
    Mostly other Greeks, I would suggest. Who are the associates of corrupt Afghans?

    You are determined to excuse the Greek people from their own acts and their own stupidity. Greece voted for the policies and politicians that ruined you, and happily lived in a corrupt land where early retirement was the norm and paying tax was optional. Take responsibility for your own actions.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Damian_ir wrote: »
    I would like to have an answer to the following ridles please:

    1. How come , according to Eurostat , despite Greeks are the so called "corrupted" they are not lazy at all because they are on top of the list of the people that works many hours per week(even 2 years ago) ? And i don't mean now, because country is collapsing along with economy . How you can explain that people that are corrupted won't stay at home to bludge ?
    This is because many, many businesses in Greece involve people sitting watching TV in their family stores all day - in theory working for 12 or 16 hours, but actually producing nothing. Or they are farmers on tiny farms 'working' long hours and producing little. Are you not concerned by the absolutely terrible levels of productivity of the Greek worker?
    Damian_ir wrote: »
    2. If hou had to pay your taxes but you knew that someone would steal them before reaching social services, would you have done it in the first place ?
    I would pay my taxes and I would make sure that the police investigated any theft. And if the police would not investigate the theft I would vote for a political party who would tackle corruption. And if no such party existed, I would start one myself. And if nobody voted for my party, I would conclude that I am living in a society that is totally corrupt and is doomed. Much like Greece.
    Damian_ir wrote: »
    3. How come bludgers and corrupted worthless people spend one year of their life serving(without any payment at all) the army to protect country's borders , that happens to be Europe's borders and not spend that period to study or to develop skills ?
    Um...because it's a legal requirement? They do it all over the world. You think this makes you special? Of course, it's mostly due to paranoia about (democratic, NATO member) Turkey, but that's another Greek issue for another discussion.
    Damian_ir wrote: »
    People in Greece hasn't got the luxury of true Justice, something that is basic in most of the countries of the western Europe. So don't expect from the people there to simply ... just pay your taxes, and don't judge them easily unless you go and live there for 1-2 years...
    If you allow your society to become so corrupt - like Sudan or Afghanistan or somewhere - why do you expect others to pay for it? :confused:
    Damian_ir wrote: »
    The same corrupted people that always doing the negative rebranding for the public image of the country are the same people that receives briefcases by overseas.
    Yeah, it's all the fault of the others, not the Greeks. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,063 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    Damian_ir wrote: »
    I would like to have an answer to the following ridles please:

    1. How come , according to Eurostat , despite Greeks are the so called "corrupted" they are not lazy at all because they are on top of the list of the people that works many hours per week(even 2 years ago) ? And i don't mean now, because country is collapsing along with economy . How you can explain that people that are corrupted won't stay at home to bludge ?

    It doesn't make a difference how many hours they work. What is important is how productive they are of there time and living within their means.
    2. If hou had to pay your taxes but you knew that someone would steal them before reaching social services, would you have done it in the first place ?

    I don't like paying tax as the next person but I realise that if I want a health service, educational facilities, social welfare safety net etc than I'll have to pay taxes. It seems that a lot of Greeks want to pay no taxes but enjoy the usage of a public services system.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    And Finally....Greece now has a Banking Crisis as well as a fiscal crisis.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/20/banks-greece-idUSL6E8FKF0G20120420
    Greece's top banks posted historic losses for 2011 on Friday, hit by a bond swap last month that blew holes in their balance sheets and nearly wiped out their capital base.

    Together, National, Alpha, Eurobank and Piraeus, posted an aggregate loss of 28.2 billion euros ($37.3 billion), about 10 times their current market worth or 13 percent of the country's GDP.
    However this was largely allowed for in the big bailout some time back.
    Athens, which was due to announce a framework to recapitalise banks on Friday, is still working on technical aspects with EU/IMF officials, meaning the structure of the plan will likely be unveiled after the May 6 national election.

    About 50 billion euros have been earmarked in Greece's second bailout to prop up the banking sector. The state wants private investors to dig into their pockets for at least 10 percent of capital needs to support banks and avoid nationalising them.

    Now lets see whether the €5bn of private sector support is forthcoming.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    Now lets see whether the €5bn of private sector support is forthcoming.
    Indeed. I wonder how moves to tackle non-payment of tax are going?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    moves to tackle non-payment of tax

    Not well unless fully proven otherwise. Late Feb 2012

    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2012/02/troika-demands-38-new-changes-in-greek.html
    The reforms, spelt out in three separate memoranda of a combined 90 pages, are the price that Greece has agreed to pay to obtain a €130bn second bail-out and avoid a sovereign default that the government feared would throw Greek society into turmoil.

    They range from the sweeping – overhauling judicial procedures, centralising health insurance, completing an accurate land registry – to the mundane – buying a new computer system for tax collectors, changing the way drugs are prescribed and setting minimum crude oil stocks.

    “The programme is much, much more ambitious than economic reform,” said Mujtaba Rahman, Europe analyst at the Eurasia Group risk consultancy. “This is state building, as typically understood in traditional low-income contexts.”

    The old Greek state, where Pasok and ND alternated in government was a kleptocracy. The current Greek state where they are a coalition is making Euro sounding noises to keep the taps open. It will take years to get a reasonable level of compliance.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Damian_ir


    If you allow your society to become so corrupt - like Sudan or Afghanistan or somewhere - why do you expect others to pay for it? :confused:

    Pay what ? There are no money to take from the Greeks. After austerity measures 2 people commits suicide daily. One per month starts a fire on himself by using gasoline. Yes i know they should blame their self . You know ... apart of bludgers useless and corrupted Greeks are also crazy because on their flag (if you can decode it) it says "freedom or death" .

    It looks like the "Chinese inspired" German Union needs a "bad" thibet to show to the other members so that they obey without any thought .
    Eventhough the so called perfect economy of the "good kid" (Holland) - with no external enemies - starts to fade away

    Southern Europians are the consumers of northern Europe' s products. We''ll see what will be north's debt when Greece and couple of Southern countries get out of Eurozone and won't spend money on products of the north, for under a national currency, Mediterranean countries citizens will have a look on products of the north as luxury .

    Yes i know that Germany and other northern countries exports to Asia, Usa, Australia etc ... Though, which product would you have bought in Texas if you were American ... a BMW or a GM ?
    On the other hand, Italians, Greeks, Spaniards would easily put money of a life on a VW, so that a few craftsmen of the factory vote in favour of the emperor Angela Merkel.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Damian_ir wrote: »
    Pay what ? There are no money to take from the Greeks. After austerity measures 2 people commits suicide daily. One per month starts a fire on himself by using gasoline. Yes i know they should blame their self . You know ... apart of bludgers useless and corrupted Greeks are also crazy because on their flag (if you can decode it) it says "freedom or death" .

    It looks like the "Chinese inspired" German Union needs a "bad" thibet to show to the other members so that they obey without any thought .
    Eventhough the so called perfect economy of the "good kid" (Holland) - with no external enemies - starts to fade away
    I think a better place for arguments like this might be here. People in Germany commit suicide too - I wonder how many do it because the Greeks took goods and services from them and didn't bother to pay? (a stupid, emotive argument there I think but rather than just say that I thought I'd give a counter-example)
    Damian_ir wrote: »
    Southern Europians are the consumers of northern Europe' s products. We''ll see what will be north's debt when Greece and couple of Southern countries get out of Eurozone and won't spend money on products of the north, for under a national currency, Mediterranean countries citizens will have a look on products of the north as luxury .

    Yes i know that Germany and other northern countries exports to Asia, Usa, Australia etc ... Though, which product would you have bought in Texas if you were American ... a BMW or a GM ?
    On the other hand, Italians, Greeks, Spaniards would easily put money of a life on a VW, so that a few craftsmen of the factory vote in favour of the emperor Angela Merkel.
    So Greek people will buy fewer BMWs? Great - they couldn't afford them in the first place it seems. Perhaps a few hundred of your doctors who claim to earn less than €12,000 per year can club together and buy one.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Damian_ir wrote: »
    Southern Europians are the consumers of northern Europe' s products. We''ll see what will be north's debt when Greece and couple of Southern countries get out of Eurozone and won't spend money on products of the north, for under a national currency, Mediterranean countries citizens will have a look on products of the north as luxury
    I think you're doing a disservice to Italy, Spain and Portugal (and Ireland really) to compare them to Greece. They have problems in their economies but the sort of rampant tax evasion that is a national sport in Greece is nowhere near as apparent in these other Club-Med countries (or Ireland).

    Could Greeks (or the Irish) ever really afford all those luxury German cars? Obviously not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43 Damian_ir


    I guess then you people of the north don't know much about other products that Germans provides to Greece. Products for the public structures. Products that needs any nation no matter what.

    Products that they sell 3 times the price they should. People makes money on behalf of Germany and people makes money on behalf of Greece.

    And of course majority of the people in Greece hardly manages to survive.

    Under extreme situations like these, expect radical reactions on 6th of May. Not only the French will vote but the people of guinea-pig country too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭McDave


    Damian_ir wrote: »
    I guess then you people of the north don't know much about other products that Germans provides to Greece. Products for the public structures. Products that needs any nation no matter what.

    Products that they sell 3 times the price they should. People makes money on behalf of Germany and people makes money on behalf of Greece.

    And of course majority of the people in Greece hardly manages to survive.

    Under extreme situations like these, expect radical reactions on 6th of May. Not only the French will vote but the people of guinea-pig country too.
    Greece has a dilemma before it. If they elect the old guard nothing changes. If they elect a disparate range of new parties, a stable coalition may prove hard to form. With the risk that Greece may become theoretically ungovernable. At which point it simply has to leave the Euro. And possibly even the EU.

    This article was in yesterday's IT: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0427/1224315234496.html

    It's just the latest in a long line of articles that show what a wreck of a society Greece is and how corruption on an unimaginable scale is endemic. Even the relatively sympathetic Richard Pine has recently penned articles scathing of Greece (e.g. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0413/1224314683701.html).

    The question has to be asked: Are there any positive political forces which can set Greece on the track to administrative and economic competence? Because if there aren't, Greece's goose is cooked. And others will be prepared to walk away if Greece is not prepared to help itself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Damian_ir wrote: »
    I guess then you people of the north don't know much about other products that Germans provides to Greece. Products for the public structures. Products that needs any nation no matter what.

    Products that they sell 3 times the price they should. People makes money on behalf of Germany and people makes money on behalf of Greece.

    Ridiculous. Is it that the Greeks are too stupid to buy from somebody else? Or are they so corrupt that by the time the 'products' arrive, they have trebled in price due to backhanders and bribes? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,157 ✭✭✭srsly78


    Pretty sure Ireland does ok without submarines. We do however needs lots of bmws.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    More hilarious corruption from the Greek people: Greece's 'Island of the Blind'...I wonder how the German taxpayers feel about paying for this:
    Even by the extravagant standards of Greek corruption, the scam uncovered by Stelios Bozikis is so brazen that it is hard to credit.

    Nearly 600 people on the Ionian island of Zakynthos -- of which Mr Bozikis was recently elected mayor -- managed to have themselves falsely declared blind, entitling them to state benefits.

    They included taxi drivers, shopkeepers and restaurant owners, farmers tending the island's patchwork of vineyards and olive groves, and a few amateur hunters, whose purported disability did not stop them shooting rabbits and birds in the rugged mountains of the interior.

    Other "blind" locals have been seen playing cards and backgammon in tavernas and bars.

    "Out of 650 registered blind people on the island, we estimate that at least 600 are fraudulent claims," the mayor said in his office overlooking the port of Zakynthos Town, the main settlement.

    That represents nearly two per cent of the island's population of 35,000 -- nearly 10 times the average rate of blindness in Europe.

    The authorities on the island had been permitting fraudulent claims for more than a decade.
    I guess Damian_Ir will be along shortly to explain why this is Germany's fault.


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Voodoo_rasher


    More hilarious corruption from the Greek people: Greece's 'Island of the Blind'...I wonder how the German taxpayers feel about paying for this:


    I guess Damian_Ir will be along shortly to explain why this is Germany's fault.

    Ah, you get your inspiration from the Sindo courtesy of the Telegraph...


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Voodoo_rasher




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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Ah, you get your inspiration from the Sindo courtesy of the Telegraph...
    It's either true or false. It doesn't matter what paper it appears in, does it?

    Are you claiming it is untrue?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,875 ✭✭✭Irish Aris


    McDave wrote: »
    Greece has a dilemma before it. If they elect the old guard nothing changes. If they elect a disparate range of new parties, a stable coalition may prove hard to form. With the risk that Greece may become theoretically ungovernable. At which point it simply has to leave the Euro. And possibly even the EU.

    The question has to be asked: Are there any positive political forces which can set Greece on the track to administrative and economic competence? Because if there aren't, Greece's goose is cooked. And others will be prepared to walk away if Greece is not prepared to help itself.

    Well, we wouldn't know if there are any political forces to put us back on track, because the majority of Greeks kept voting for PASOK or Nea Dimokratia for the last 35 years. Unofficial polls done the last month saw a tendency towards people voting for various parties. If that were to happen, we would have a parliament with 6,7 maybe 8 parties and it would make it very difficult for a coalition to happen. But, precedents have shown that at the last minute most people will still vote for the 2 aforementioned parties who, at the time, are trying to convince the people that if one of the two is not elected again, it is the end for Greece.
    I am pretty sure that many people will buy it. . .and many of them will be those who protested in front of the parliament. . .

    Too bad I won't be able to vote. . .


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,875 ✭✭✭Irish Aris


    It's either true or false. It doesn't matter what paper it appears in, does it?

    Are you claiming it is untrue?


    I can confirm that the story is true. It played a lot in the Greek Media. . .maybe a year ago. . .???


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,157 ✭✭✭Good loser


    It's either true or false. It doesn't matter what paper it appears in, does it?

    Are you claiming it is untrue?

    Yes Voodoo what's your point?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭beeftotheheels


    Well, it looks like the EU may not have to burn Greece after all, Tsipras seems to be leading the charge today.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17986065


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Well, it looks like the EU may not have to burn Greece after all, Tsipras seems to be leading the charge today.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17986065

    I'm not an economist but I can't help but feel it can get worse for Greece. Who will they riot against if it does?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,675 ✭✭✭beeftotheheels


    meglome wrote: »
    I'm not an economist but I can't help but feel it can get worse for Greece.

    A lot worse. From what the Syriza leader has publicly said about rejecting the bailout I'm not really sure that he gets that there will be no cash come the end of June if the official lenders don't lend it to him. I'm not sure he gets what proportion of Greek debt is now owed to official EU creditors who he cannot default on without being prepared to leave the EU. I'm not sure that he gets that he won't be able to afford to pay salaries and pensions in July. I'm not sure that he gets that the official creditors are not going to blink here, that a Grexit would likely now be manageable for everyone - bar Greece!

    Its a scary new world.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    meglome wrote: »
    I'm not an economist but I can't help but feel it can get worse for Greece. Who will they riot against if it does?
    Themselves. The same people they have been rioting against the whole time. They must have lost a lot of sympathy for voting for loads of communists and Neo-Nazis, and I'm very tempted to say that they deserve everything that is coming their way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    A lot worse. From what the Syriza leader has publicly said about rejecting the bailout I'm not really sure that he gets that there will be no cash come the end of June if the official lenders don't lend it to him. I'm not sure he gets what proportion of Greek debt is now owed to official EU creditors who he cannot default on without being prepared to leave the EU. I'm not sure that he gets that he won't be able to afford to pay salaries and pensions in July. I'm not sure that he gets that the official creditors are not going to blink here, that a Grexit would likely now be manageable for everyone - bar Greece!

    Its a scary new world.

    Maybe, like the ULA, he has a plan to 'tax the rich'? :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,462 ✭✭✭Peanut


    ... I'm not sure he gets what proportion of Greek debt is now owed to official EU creditors who he cannot default on without being prepared to leave the EU.

    Just a small point, but I think it's incredibly unlikey that Greece will leave the EU regardless of what happens. A Eurozone exit though is certainly on the cards, or perhaps something like a temporary suspension.


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