Originally Posted by monument
I did give facts - the fact that there are costs that s/he did not include.
If you want me to go into academic thesis level of detail of research -- then no, I don't have the time and likely am ill qualified to confirm or find / work out many of the costs. I'd be happy to try to remember to bookmark research I come across in this area, but this method may take some time.
The main point is not that roads should not be built or kept open, but that with roads many costs are off the balance sheet, while rail has far more costs on the balance sheet / does not have some of the cost or has less impacts (ie on the environment).
Do many people actually pay at the €80 level?
And the "lovely comfortable bus coaches" is subjective (just as rail comfort can be subjective).
It looks like the railway buffs were at this so I take it we can at least half trust it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_railway_accidents
... I'm actually guessing there's been more injuries that that since 1983 but it only tracks "accidents with one or more train occupant fatalities."
Now I'm giving away my age here, if I was a few weeks younger (ie born after rather than just before what happened at Cherryville Junction), then there would only be one death on the railways in my lifetime to date?!
Rail safety isn't perfect and there are apparently some major flaws with inspections and record keeping, but rail safety in general has moved on since my birth year and trains (or more so carriages) are now of a better build. If rail-like safety standards were applied to our roads, motoring would be a good deal more expensive or, at the very least, there'd be a lot more speed restrictions (ie many enforced 30km/h, 40km/h zones and changes in limits depending the actual road design and condition).
Two stories re rail safety vs general road safety:
On one side you've got Dublin City Council and the NTA repaving something like 24km of Dublin's roads and they use the old cycle lane designs rather than using the new cycle manual and the standards it sets (they say because the manual was not yet legally in place!). Complain about a cycle lane flaw and you're lucky if it'll be fixed in many months or years.
On the other side, complain to the Railway Safety Commission about a cycle lane sign which is creating a blind spot at a Luas crossing point and get it fixed in about seven days -- see here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...6405288&page=2
That's a lot of detail and you still have not covered many of the costs factors I've listed. For example, IBM estmated the cost of congestion for Dublin alone is a few billion a year. Also, the HSE have recenly came out with a report showning that the RSA / Garda stats are a massive underestimation of the level of injuries real problem.
The health costs related to inactivity and pollution are mounting.
It's telling that the NRA etc don't care about theses off the book costs.
I covered the following which were in your posts
- Department of Transport including NTA/RSA funding + NRA grant
- Planning/Design/Construction + Maintenance of National roads
- Local authority spending on road maintenance (non-national)
I also provide detail on accident costs, based on what the Gardaí and RSA are saying. Now you are saying the HSE is claiming this is understimated. Can you clarify how much of an underestimate they are proposing it is? In which case I'll happily redo the calculation.
As for the IBM study I recall it when it came out, they were also in the process of trying to pimp their Smarter City initiative to the Government. Given the mint they made when it came to the failed PPARS system (HSE) that's hardly surprising. Anyone who works in IT knows what IBM (Big Blue) is like.
I do recall though that the DTO did have a study that had congestion in Dublin at £500million (yeah punts -- old study). Of course that's why projects such as Dart Underground (Dart to Maynooth, Dart on Kildare line) Metro North, Luas BXD and Quad tracking of line as far as Kildare would help (which by the way I fully support). All of which would be considerably better spent money then wasting €4billion on TGV line from Cork to Dublin as some here have proposed.
That and I fully support the likes of Greenways, for example if one looks at OSI aerial photos (2005) you can see that most of the trackbed of the old MG&WR survives from north of Mullingar to Cavan town. Likewise most of the old trackbed for the GNR Cavan to Monaghan line survives. It wouldn't be that hard to build a functional greenway from Athlone to Monaghan using old railway trackbed (Athlone <-> Mullingar branch) and putting section of Greenway beside the current Railway line until you reach the old "Inny Junction" and where the Cavan branch use to branch off.
Netherlands is a great country I've been there several times and I've travel by rail etc. The first time I went to the office in Fryslan I decided I'd get the train. Next time they told me to call and they would pay for Taxi to travel the 1hour 33 minutes from Schipol. (Train requires changes -- takes considerably longer). Either way there are 17million people living in an area the size of Munster and Leinster combined. Munster and Leinster only have a population of 3.7million in comparison