[Sam Kade]

Originally Posted by Irish and Proud

I've used the train to Cork a few times and there are pros and cons compared with car travel IMO:

Pros:

1) Fast and relaxing (scenic) journey - cuts out the stress of driving and wallops the bus in terms of speed;

2) Good rail link between Heuston and Connolly (Red Line);

3) Food and toilets available without the need to stop off - also available at main stations; Surely you can stay hungry for a 2.5 hour journey. As for the toilet don't drink too much liquid before you start your journey.

4) You don't have to worry about parking upon arrival.

Cons:

1) Not as fast or direct as driving by car;

2) Baggage can be a source of major discomfort upon interchanging or walking;

3) Less opportunity to visit places of interest along the way or around destination;

4) Have to walk to reach Cork City Centre. Cork city center is only a short walk from the train station

Even:

1) Price - €70 would cover a return trip for both modes IMO;

2) Constant speed restrictions on Cork Line, but Cork Road is prone to accidents, works and diversions;

3) Both journeys are scenic but - have to concentrate on driving / may not get a window seat on train;

4) Motoring is faster, but getting into town is still via congested substandard roads - Rail terminates at one point regardless of where people need to go.

If anyone has anything to add...

.

[dubhthach]

Originally Posted by monument

I did give facts - the fact that there are costs that s/he did not include.

If you want me to go into academic thesis level of detail of research -- then no, I don't have the time and likely am ill qualified to confirm or find / work out many of the costs. I'd be happy to try to remember to bookmark research I come across in this area, but this method may take some time.

The main point is not that roads should not be built or kept open, but that with roads many costs are off the balance sheet, while rail has far more costs on the balance sheet / does not have some of the cost or has less impacts (ie on the environment).




Do many people actually pay at the €80 level?

And the "lovely comfortable bus coaches" is subjective (just as rail comfort can be subjective).



It looks like the railway buffs were at this so I take it we can at least half trust it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_railway_accidents ... I'm actually guessing there's been more injuries that that since 1983 but it only tracks "accidents with one or more train occupant fatalities."

Now I'm giving away my age here, if I was a few weeks younger (ie born after rather than just before what happened at Cherryville Junction), then there would only be one death on the railways in my lifetime to date?!

Rail safety isn't perfect and there are apparently some major flaws with inspections and record keeping, but rail safety in general has moved on since my birth year and trains (or more so carriages) are now of a better build. If rail-like safety standards were applied to our roads, motoring would be a good deal more expensive or, at the very least, there'd be a lot more speed restrictions (ie many enforced 30km/h, 40km/h zones and changes in limits depending the actual road design and condition).

Two stories re rail safety vs general road safety:

On one side you've got Dublin City Council and the NTA repaving something like 24km of Dublin's roads and they use the old cycle lane designs rather than using the new cycle manual and the standards it sets (they say because the manual was not yet legally in place!). Complain about a cycle lane flaw and you're lucky if it'll be fixed in many months or years.

On the other side, complain to the Railway Safety Commission about a cycle lane sign which is creating a blind spot at a Luas crossing point and get it fixed in about seven days -- see here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...6405288&page=2




That's a lot of detail and you still have not covered many of the costs factors I've listed. For example, IBM estmated the cost of congestion for Dublin alone is a few billion a year. Also, the HSE have recenly came out with a report showning that the RSA / Garda stats are a massive underestimation of the level of injuries real problem.

The health costs related to inactivity and pollution are mounting.

It's telling that the NRA etc don't care about theses off the book costs.

I covered the following which were in your posts

• Department of Transport including NTA/RSA funding + NRA grant
• Planning/Design/Construction + Maintenance of National roads
• Local authority spending on road maintenance (non-national)

I also provide detail on accident costs, based on what the Gardaí and RSA are saying. Now you are saying the HSE is claiming this is understimated. Can you clarify how much of an underestimate they are proposing it is? In which case I'll happily redo the calculation.

As for the IBM study I recall it when it came out, they were also in the process of trying to pimp their Smarter City initiative to the Government. Given the mint they made when it came to the failed PPARS system (HSE) that's hardly surprising. Anyone who works in IT knows what IBM (Big Blue) is like.

I do recall though that the DTO did have a study that had congestion in Dublin at £500million (yeah punts -- old study). Of course that's why projects such as Dart Underground (Dart to Maynooth, Dart on Kildare line) Metro North, Luas BXD and Quad tracking of line as far as Kildare would help (which by the way I fully support). All of which would be considerably better spent money then wasting €4billion on TGV line from Cork to Dublin as some here have proposed.

That and I fully support the likes of Greenways, for example if one looks at OSI aerial photos (2005) you can see that most of the trackbed of the old MG&WR survives from north of Mullingar to Cavan town. Likewise most of the old trackbed for the GNR Cavan to Monaghan line survives. It wouldn't be that hard to build a functional greenway from Athlone to Monaghan using old railway trackbed (Athlone <-> Mullingar branch) and putting section of Greenway beside the current Railway line until you reach the old "Inny Junction" and where the Cavan branch use to branch off.

Netherlands is a great country I've been there several times and I've travel by rail etc. The first time I went to the office in Fryslan I decided I'd get the train. Next time they told me to call and they would pay for Taxi to travel the 1hour 33 minutes from Schipol. (Train requires changes -- takes considerably longer). Either way there are 17million people living in an area the size of Munster and Leinster combined. Munster and Leinster only have a population of 3.7million in comparison

[popebenny16]

Originally Posted by bk

Actually thinking about it further, I think we will see Irish Rail become more like the rail service in Holland.

IR have tried the whole, airline style online booking system and to be honest, the inflexibiltiy of it just doesn't work when you are competing with the very flexible bus coach services.

I think that the rail service will have to become much more less a bus service, like it is in Holland.

In Holland, the max price is just €20 per way. You can buy the ticket online, but most people don't, you just walk up to the station and buy the ticket.

People normally don't bother to buy a return as it is the same price as two singles, so they normally just buy the return ticket as a single whenever they need it.

Booked seats are only in first class, but that isn't an issue as they are never that busy. Irish Rail are also unlikely to be that busy anymore with all the new competition.

So simplify it. Scrap seat bookings and all the complexity and complaints that goes with it, it isn't working anyway. Make the walk up fare to Cork €20 per direction.

This will make train travel much more flexible and competitive with the new bus coach services.

there has to be an economic level to the cost, so it may not be possible to do every seat from cork at €20, but the idea is sound.

in relation to what you said earlier about the effect that bus services from Galway are having on that train service, I honestly cant agree or disagree, but I imagine, as you say, that IE will be trying to do surveys on it. Then again, being IE, maybe they wont.

Simplify, simplify, simplify, will have to be the motto of IE, be it timetables, fares, usage of assets, usage of human resources.

[yew_tree]

Originally Posted by corktina

Rail has a great future as shown in the UK and on the Continent etc, but no, not a very rosy picture in Ireland, thast because of the years of under-investment and lazy management which sees us around 40 or more behind the UK from a position of actaully modernising a decade before them.

What do i think should be done? Well keep all the suburban stuff is a given as it is useful even if it doesnt make a profit, and invest in Cork,Limerick,Galway and Belfast to Dublin by upgrading to 125mph minimum. Other lines can be closed or kept on a secondary level so long as major investment isnt needed.

Should check you facts - Why would Irish rail close the Westport Line - One of their most profitable routes for the amount of trains they provide

[corktina]

Originally Posted by Sam Kade

Air bus goes from Cork city to Dublin city for €22 return. There is also a bus from Mitchlestown to Dublin city for €15 return.

Im 45 minutes from the city and more from Mitchelstown. Bus is not an option for me.

[corktina]

Originally Posted by yew_tree

Should check you facts - Why would Irish rail close the Westport Line - One of their most profitable routes for the amount of trains they provide

"or kept on a secondary level..." etc. read the post....

In any case, that may (or may not, you quote no figures) be the case but it may not always be with increasing car and bus competition. We are discussing the future of Rail in Ireland.

[bk]

Originally Posted by popebenny16

there has to be an economic level to the cost, so it may not be possible to do every seat from cork at €20, but the idea is sound.

Yes, IR faces a difficult future.

- Reduced subsidies.
- Falling passenger numbers due to competition from car and bus
- Reduced ticket prices in order to remain competitive with car and bus.

All of this manes a big drop in IR's income. The only option IR has is to reduce costs. I just hope they manage to find ways to maintain the current level of services (or close to it) while reducing these costs (e.g. lots of automation).

[antoobrien]

Originally Posted by popebenny16

in relation to what you said earlier about the effect that bus services from Galway are having on that train service

I can honestly say that the bus services between Dublin & Galway have made it much better. On the bus €20 gets you a seat for a return journey, all you have to do is show up 15 minutes before departure. Also GoBus will stop at Heuston or O'Connell St - a big advantage over having to get the 90 or Laus to go to Buses or Connolly (dart).

With IE they charge you (€6 the last time I used it) to book a seat - no guarantees that you'll actually get it (had people tell me where to go once or twice). The fee changing depending on when you're travelling is a bit of a pain - a €10 fare on a Wednesday morning is f**k all good to me because I have to be at work Monday-Friday.

The 40+ charge for travelling on a friday is a bit rich. If I have luggage (e.g. golf bag) taxi fare to and from the station makes it a no-brainer to take the car - even with current petrol prices & tolls.

Then there's the hassle & cost of getting to and from the various train stations.

All in all, the train is not really a realistic option at its current pricing and convenience unless you're bringing a small child.

[Winters]

My travel patterns come down to whatever is easiest. I get the DART to work because im 10 mins walk to the station and then 5 mins walk to work and I dont drive during the week because I dont need to.

In the last few months alone I have been to the following locations: Kinsale, Killaloe, Courttown, Carlingford, Bantry, Greencastle and Dunlavin. I drove to each destination because I had to - because it was quicker, because it was a lot easier (passengers, luggage etc.), more direct and more flexible than train or bus. Cost didn't really come into it but I would imagine it was the most cost effective option too.

Sadly I can't see rail in this country having any future growth with the exception of commuting in urban areas. I wish it was the other way though.

[end of the road]

we need to get the following done as a priority. dart underground, the killdare dart done, and if possible extend the quad tracking to killdare. we need to try relieve congestion through connolly and on the northern line, get the dublin cork and bellfast lines up to a good speed that will be competitive with or faster then the motor ways. the galway westport rosslare and waterford lines will need to be sped up as much as possible in the future. do i think it will happen? no, but it should, or even better it should have happend all ready.
of course if the government were any way right during the good times all of this would have been done as well as the motor ways but they decided to prioritize them over rail probably for their state cars rather then the general public.

[bk]

Originally Posted by end of the road

of course if the government were any way right during the good times all of this would have been done as well as the motor ways but they decided to prioritize them over rail probably for their state cars rather then the general public.

Or alternatively Irish Rail were too busy playing at being property developers and did the minimum possible to maintain safety standards and didn't push the government for money for more imaginative projects like you mentioned.

It was noticeable how much PR and marketing the RPA did of LUAS and Metro North in the press during the good years, while IR was always very quiet about their projects.

Everyone knew what Metro North was and many in the public wanted it and asked their local politicians about it. Very few people have ever heard of Dart Underground.

I blame IR for this. The RPA got a lot built in that time. What did IR achieve?

Yes IR did a lot too, new trains, clock face schedules, safety upgrades, signalling around Dublin, DART platform lengthening. All important stuff, but relatively small fry compared to what the RPA achieved and what IR should have been pushing for.

[Sam Kade]

Originally Posted by corktina

Im 45 minutes from the city and more from Mitchelstown. Bus is not an option for me.

You did mention that you have a car, what's stopping you driving to the bus or getting someone to drop you to the bus if parking is too dear

[DarkDusk]

I'll start the redstone circuits.










lol

[corktina]

Originally Posted by Sam Kade

You did mention that you have a car, what's stopping you driving to the bus or getting someone to drop you to the bus if parking is too dear

are you kidding me? once Im in the car for 45 minutes, I may as well stay in it....