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Society After Religion

  • 19-03-2012 5:08am
    #1
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭


    OK, so there is a constant theme on this board that religion rightly or wrongly is precieved as the great inhibitor to human progression. There may or may not be a case to argue in that favour however, it is not as straight forward as that.

    Modern western culture and indeed modern eastern culture (think China) is being more and more driven in a secular fashion where some are even suggesting that organised and the controlling religion we have know throughout history is dead.

    However, what comes next? How will society organise itself? Will it lead to an explosion of discovery, peace and universal human enlightenment or would a world without religion descend into an age without morals, chaos and general malaise where humans still fumbling around in the dark.

    Discuss!


«13456

Comments

  • #2
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    There won't ever be a world without religion.


  • #3
    smcgiff
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,943 ✭✭✭smcgiff


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    There won't ever be a world without religion.

    Yip - the op gives far too much credit to humanity


  • #4
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    For religion to retreat to nothing society would already have to have made incredible progress. As long as people are hungry or uneducated there will be takers for the promises that religions peddle.


  • #5
    Ellis Dee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    There won't ever be a world without religion.


    I fear you are right. Like the poor, ignorance, superstition and gullibility will probably always be with us.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    If this cosmos was designed by something, it sure has a few massive design faults in it.:)

    science-vs-religion2.png?w=529


  • #6
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    I never said there would be a world without religion, the jist of my OP was society after religion. What will society be like after the grip and control of religion is done away with. Mass secularism if you will. We are already seeing a fracturing of religion into disparate parts especially in Europe. How will this shape society in the coming centuries?


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  • #7
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,396 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    jank wrote: »
    Modern western culture and indeed modern eastern culture (think China) is being more and more driven in a secular fashion where some are even suggesting that organised and the controlling religion we have know throughout history is dead.
    Take a look at the underground church movement in China -- religion is far from dead there, though the communists certainly wish it were (and they are rightly concerned about its influence).
    jank wrote: »
    However, what comes next? How will society organise itself? Will it lead to an explosion of discovery, peace and universal human enlightenment or would a world without religion descend into an age without morals, chaos and general malaise where humans still fumbling around in the dark.
    Take a look at Scandinavia -- is that falling to bits in the virtual absence of organized religion?

    One thing I'm looking forward to is a serious reduction in the number of religious people running around the place saying that the world is falling to bits!

    Other than that:

    196868.png


  • #8
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Yeah, most of the Scandinavian countries seem to be doing pretty well without bothering very much about all the god stuff. Sweden is probably the nicest place I've ever been to.


  • #9
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    jank wrote: »
    Mass secularism if you will. We are already seeing a fracturing of religion into disparate parts especially in Europe. How will this shape society in the coming centuries?
    Let me rephrase what I have already alluded to...

    As the standard of living/education increases in a society, the likelihood is religiosity decreases. I don't see secularism shaping society, so much as a result of a society that has been successfully 'shaped'.

    i.e. Sweden isn't a great place to live because it's secular, it's secular because it's a great place to live.


  • #10
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    robindch wrote: »
    ......movement in China -- religion is far from dead there, though the communists certainly wish it were (and they are rightly concerned about its influence).....

    How so? That to me is an amazing statement to make.


  • #11
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    robindch wrote: »
    Take a look at the underground church movement in China -- religion is far from dead there, though the communists certainly wish it were (and they are rightly concerned about its influence).

    Yes the traditionally atheist china seems to have caused a lot of harm to its own people.
    Take a look at Scandinavia -- is that falling to bits in the virtual absence of organized religion?

    And religion is absent according to what measurement? AFAIK Scandinavia is religious. It isn't atheist or atheistic. whet evidence makes you believe it is atheist?


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  • #12
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    ISAW wrote: »



    And religion is absent according to what measurement? AFAIK Scandinavia is religious. It isn't atheist or atheistic. whet evidence makes you believe it is atheist?

    This is true, Sweden is not as "atheist" as many would like to claim, although the state itself is quite secular. That is an interesting question, what is the most "atheist" state in the world?


  • #13
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    jank wrote: »
    This is true, Sweden is not as "atheist" as many would like to claim, although the state itself is quite secular. That is an interesting question, what is the most "atheist" state in the world?

    It comes about from a discussion over in the Christianity forum; it is a bit more difficult to argue about religion in general because for example some religions can be regarded as atheist e.g. Buddhism. And is it is difficult dealing with a spectrum of religious belief (and one wuld have to include belief in sirits natire shamanism paganism etc. problems areise with agnisticism as well.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism
    Statistics on atheism are often difficult to represent accurately for a variety of reasons

    i prefer to use the oft quoted by atheists "there is no god" as atheism and "i dont know/cant say if there is a god" for agnosticism

    then we get into hard and soft agnostics.
    i usually use the ARIS Nones survey for the definitions.
    http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/
    Page 11 in the Nones report i think.

    anyway back to the point. this is just Norway not the rest of scandanavia but you can compare the other countries as they are listed in the EB stats. In that discussion an anti christian cartoon was posted which had a claim about Norway being 70% atheist. so i went and did sole research and it seems like everywhere else atheists show up in single digit percentages. Added together with agnostics and spiritualists and others from "no religion" they get ntoi the lower double digit
    teens percentages.

    for referenced try http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77199896&postcount=2337
    http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf


  • #14
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    jank wrote: »
    This is true, Sweden is not as "atheist" as many would like to claim, although the state itself is quite secular. That is an interesting question, what is the most "atheist" state in the world?
    Why are the terms "secular" and "atheist state" being juggled here?

    One is a reasonable aspiration for a society and the other is a term usually associated with totalitarian regimes where religion was stifled to ensure the church couldn't threaten the power base.


  • #15
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    There won't ever be a world without religion.

    A bold statement..


  • #16
    Otacon
    Registered Users Posts: 6,721 ✭✭✭Otacon


    ISAW wrote: »
    i prefer to use the oft quoted by atheists "there is no god" as atheism and "i dont know/cant say if there is a god" for agnosticism

    You may prefer it but its still not accurate.

    Theism/Atheism refers to a belief in a god or gods. Gnosticism/Agnosticism refers to knowledge.

    I am an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in a god but I do not know for certain that one does not exist.


  • #17
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,707 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    ISAW wrote: »
    anyway back to the point. this is just Norway not the rest of scandanavia but you can compare the other countries as they are listed in the EB stats. In that discussion an anti christian cartoon was posted which had a claim about Norway being 70% atheist. so i went and did sole research and it seems like everywhere else atheists show up in single digit percentages. Added together with agnostics and spiritualists and others from "no religion" they get ntoi the lower double digit
    teens percentages.

    for referenced try http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77199896&postcount=2337
    http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf

    In the linked pdf, France is 33% atheist (don't believe in any sort of spirit, god or life-force, I would imagine would satisfy most people as falling in the atheist definition) and I count about 8 other countries that are >20%. And those percentages are without adding any other grouping into the mix.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #18
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Otacon wrote: »
    You may prefer it but its still not accurate.

    Theism/Atheism refers to a belief in a god or gods. Gnosticism/Agnosticism refers to knowledge.

    I am an agnostic atheist. I don't believe in a god but I do not know for certain that one does not exist.

    like i said "I dont know/cant say if there is or is not a god" for agnosticism


    American Nones: The Profile of the No Religion Population
    http://commons.trincoll.edu/aris/publications/american-nones-the-profile-of-the-no-religion-population/

    figure 1.13 page 11
    If you have any better or comparable quantitative data for the US i would very much like to see it.


  • #19
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    ISAW just entered the thread!! Dear God abort! Abort!!!


  • #20
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    koth wrote: »
    In the linked pdf, France is 33% atheist (don't believe in any sort of spirit, god or life-force,

    france comes out on top in terms of this yes. still isnt majority atheist. and the lower scandanavian atheism figures are supported by other research. the french figure isnt. But Im prepared to accept it for what it is worth and it shows France isnt majority atheist either.
    I would imagine would satisfy most people as falling in the atheist definition) and I count about 8 other countries that are >20%. And those percentages are without adding any other grouping into the mix.

    Yes ; they include agnostics and Nones I would say. If you look at other research such as the nones survey.

    Zukermann is usually the source atheists quote but again they select out his highest percentages -as you just did with the eurostat figures.
    Here is a Cambridge university source
    http://www.investigatingatheism.info/demographics.html
    it explains how such research is fraught with errors
    Zukerman on this is about 7%
    they also quote this book
    http://books.google.ie/books/about/Sacred_and_Secular.html?id=dto-P2YfWJIC&redir_esc=y
    Norris, Pippa, and Ronald Inglehart. Sacred and Secular: Religion and Politics Worldwide. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2004.

    I have seen nothing yet to show atheism is growing or will be a majority anywhere.
    Oh except vietnam.
    even in china religion is growing faster than atheism.


  • #21
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,707 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    That Nones survey question seems really badly phrased. I could fall into atheist/hard agnostic and soft agnostic based on the responses.

    Why couldn't the ask about belief in the question? then we might get a better picture of atheists/deists/theists etc.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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  • #22
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Jernal wrote: »
    ISAW just entered the thread!! Dear God abort! Abort!!!

    ok if you are going to be like that Ill get me coat.
    bye


  • #23
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,707 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    ISAW wrote: »
    france comes out on top in terms of this yes. still isnt majority atheist. and the lower scandanavian atheism figures are supported by other research. the french figure isnt. But Im prepared to accept it for what it is worth and it shows France isnt majority atheist either.
    I never said it was majority atheist, but you said that no country ever breaks the 20% mark for atheism. yet 9 countries clearly do.
    Yes ; they include agnostics and Nones I would say. If you look at other research such as the nones survey.

    Zukermann is usually the source atheists quote but again they select out his highest percentages -as you just did with the eurostat figures.
    Here is a Cambridge university source
    http://www.investigatingatheism.info/demographics.html
    it explains how such research is fraught with errors
    Zukerman on this is about 7%
    they also quote this book
    http://books.google.ie/books/about/Sacred_and_Secular.html?id=dto-P2YfWJIC&redir_esc=y
    Norris, Pippa, and Ronald Inglehart. Sacred and Secular: Religion and Politics Worldwide. New York: Cambridge University Press, 2004.
    well of course I'd select the countries with the highest atheist populations as it was addressing your claim that no country ever exceeds 20% atheist population.
    I have seen nothing yet to show atheism is growing or will be a majority anywhere.
    Oh except vietnam.
    even in china religion is growing faster than atheism.

    Well there was a 34% growth in the no-religion group in the 2006, so it would seem there is growth.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #24
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    koth wrote: »
    I never said it was majority atheist, but you said that no country ever breaks the 20% mark for atheism. yet 9 countries clearly do.
    I was wrong according to that survey. But as I stated ther are problems with this type of research . Ill accept nine stated in the twenties but the other two thirds of countries twice as many were lower six mor in the high teens five low teens and a dozen or so in single digits. i cant accept it indicated the growth of atheism and ill stand by that.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism
    actually you can sort the columns. Try the lleft hand side on believ in a god. Far from the low teens or single digits you find only three countries wherre belief in god drops to less than 30% France is seventh from bottom in this. eight in the thirties. eight in the forties and all the rest over fifty per cent. Now if atheism had those percentages then I would agree this indicated society was becoming atheist.
    well of course I'd select the countries with the highest atheist populations as it was addressing your claim that no country ever exceeds 20% atheist population.

    AFAIK the nones grew in the 1990 but fell back. but that was US. Il accept 9 of 32 showed 20 or 30s but when iot comes to believing ALL except were twenties and above
    and one of the two was 19% the other was 16%

    And that is limited to the sample; By the way the confidence is 2.5 points for the 20% figures so that could reduce you nine to six.

    SPECIAL EUROBAROMETER N°225
    « Social values, science and technology »
    TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
    Page 107
    http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf

    But to be fair it cold pull four others up.
    Well there was a 34% growth in the no-religion group in the 2006, so it would seem there is growth.


    in what no religion group where?
    Was it growth in atheism i.e people who say there is no God or supernatural or in agnosticism i.e people who say they dont know for sure or cant say ther is a God ?

    a 34% growth could be from 3 to 4 people.


  • #25
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,707 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    ISAW wrote: »
    I was wrong according to that survey. But as I stated ther are problems with this type of research . Ill accept nine stated in the twenties but the other two thirds of countries twice as many were lower six mor in the high teens five low teens and a dozen or so in single digits. i cant accept it indicated the growth of atheism and ill stand by that.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism
    actually you can sort the columns. Try the lleft hand side on believ in a god. Far from the low teens or single digits you find only three countries wherre belief in god drops to less than 30% France is seventh from bottom in this. eight in the thirties. eight in the forties and all the rest over fifty per cent. Now if atheism had those percentages then I would agree this indicated society was becoming atheist.
    Just so we're clear, I wasn't arguing that any society is becoming atheist, just that you were incorrect about atheism never being more than 20% in any country.

    in what no religion group where?
    Was it growth in atheism i.e people who say there is no God or supernatural or in agnosticism i.e people who say they dont know for sure or cant say ther is a God ?

    a 34% growth could be from 3 to 4 people.

    Sorry, here in Ireland. Don't know as the question is what religion are you, and atheism ain't a religion so I presume atheists just ticked no religion. I don't see there ever being a situation where the census will ever give an accurate picture of the proportion of atheists in Ireland in the make up of the population.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #26
    antiskeptic
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Dades wrote: »
    As long as people are hungry or uneducated there will be takers for the promises that religions peddle.

    The God Delusion in a nutshell.


  • #27
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    I feel the number of people that have no religion is growing, just from school there seems to be a higher number of people than any research suggests that have no religion. This probably isn't showing because most of them would let their parents fill out any form.

    Things are changing, to quote my Catholic religion teacher "people used to believe that the stuff in the bible was true". Change is happening, it's just not showing itself yet.


  • #28
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    jank wrote: »
    OK, so there is a constant theme on this board that religion rightly or wrongly is precieved as the great inhibitor to human progression. There may or may not be a case to argue in that favour however, it is not as straight forward as that.

    Modern western culture and indeed modern eastern culture (think China) is being more and more driven in a secular fashion where some are even suggesting that organised and the controlling religion we have know throughout history is dead.

    However, what comes next? How will society organise itself? Will it lead to an explosion of discovery, peace and universal human enlightenment or would a world without religion descend into an age without morals, chaos and general malaise where humans still fumbling around in the dark.

    Discuss!

    All you have to do is contrast pre-Enlightenment society with post-Enlightenment society to see that we are going to be just fine (in all likelihood, I mean we could destroy the planet with a killer nano-bot)

    In pretty much every variable you can measure thinks have improve significantly as we have found and nurtured better ways to learn and discover the natural world around us.

    I don't see this as being caused by atheism, but it certainly causes atheism, as the old religious notions of how the world is simply cannot stand up to proper scrutiny.

    Atheism will increase but simply because our knowledge and education will increase. The latter causes the former.


  • #29
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    koth wrote: »
    Just so we're clear, I wasn't arguing that any society is becoming atheist, just that you were incorrect about atheism never being more than 20% in any country.

    Yes; in a 2005 eurobarometer poll which asked about 1000 adults in each of 32 countries NINE has atheism in the 20% or above level. Three of those nine were when rounded within the 2.5% error margin to be below 20%. We can say the EB poll indicateds that certainly six were in the 20s
    I accept the error if that is the impression i gave.

    i was taking up robinch point about post religion society. In it he claimed scandanavia is atheist.
    "Take a look at Scandinavia -- is that falling to bits in the virtual absence of organized religion?"
    I pointed the the eurobarometer poll -and other sources- which shows it isnt!

    It isnt atheist. It isnt even 20% atheist! and organised religion isnt absent. The EB poll says
    sweden -23%
    Norway -17%
    denmark-19%
    finland -16%
    believe in neither spirits or god or life force.

    In the same four places how many believe in god?
    23/31/32/41%

    Yes Scandanivia in not even 20% unless the sweedish population dwarfs the others. and it doesnt! Other countries like vietnam or north Koria migh be majority atheist. but i dont theink North Korea is the model for the future either do you?
    Sorry, here in Ireland. Don't know as the question is what religion are you, and atheism ain't a religion so I presume atheists just ticked no religion. I don't see there ever being a situation where the census will ever give an accurate picture of the proportion of atheists in Ireland in the make up of the population.

    I agree. for the next census they should have no religion and that five percent or so should be divided into say
    I believe in god or spirits or the supernatural but not in a religion
    There is no god
    I cant say there is a God


  • #30
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    GarIT wrote: »
    I feel the number of people that have no religion is growing, just from school there seems to be a higher number of people than any research suggests that have no religion. This probably isn't showing because most of them would let their parents fill out any form.

    Things are changing, to quote my Catholic religion teacher "people used to believe that the stuff in the bible was true". Change is happening, it's just not showing itself yet.

    So what is the difference between "no evidence for dragons" and just "no dragons" i.e you just happen to believe atheism is growing but you dont have any evidence. That isnt a very strong position is it?

    Zombrex wrote: »
    In pretty much every variable you can measure thinks have improve significantly as we have found and nurtured better ways to learn and discover the natural world around us.

    I don't see this as being caused by atheism, but it certainly causes atheism, as the old religious notions of how the world is simply cannot stand up to proper scrutiny.

    Atheism will increase but simply because our knowledge and education will increase. The latter causes the former.

    this is bordering on elitism. where is your evidence that knowledge and education increase atheism? didnt seem to work for Isaac Newton did it? Mind you he was a heretic.


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  • #31
    GarIT
    Registered Users Posts: 8,671 ✭✭✭GarIT


    ISAW wrote: »
    So what is the difference between "no evidence for dragons" and just "no dragons" i.e you just happen to believe atheism is growing but you dont have any evidence. That isnt a very strong position is it?

    The difference in the no evidence scenario is that it is still possible. But the evidence would be approx 20 students out of 180 getting ashes on ash Wednesday and that's in a Christian brothers school. The head priest actually had to ask for the people going to get ashes to come to the front about three times. To me that would show a lack of religion or a lack of people willing to show their religion. The part that would show that is growing would be that I received a detention for being the only person that didn't get communion 6 years ago.


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