Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

.ak · 06-11-2012 4:00pm

Well, in fairness, SA is our lucky team when it comes to the big three. But they're playing much better than the last time we met them, and we're playing much worse. We're also running on a skeleton crew. I'd say your prediction of 2/3 is spot on.

bilston · 06-11-2012 4:03pm

Is there anywhere on the tinterweb where you can find an easy access list of players that have won their first caps under Kidney's regime? I'd be genuinely interested to see it. I know I could go to irishrugby.ie and trawl through the player profiles but that might take a while.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of debutants in the Kidney years by province. I have no idea how it would look but would be interesting to see.

Principal Skinner · 06-11-2012 4:03pm

.ak wrote: »

Well, in fairness, SA is our lucky team when it comes to the big three. But they're playing much better than the last time we met them, and we're playing much worse. We're also running on a skeleton crew. I'd say your prediction of 2/3 is spot on.

Wouldn't be that confident about winning the Argentina game.... They will have gained a lot from their first season in the rugby championship. They put up a lot of good displays

totallegend · 06-11-2012 4:03pm

jm08 wrote: »

Do you really think coaches like Feek, Smal & Kiss would stay involved if they thought the wrong players were being selected - after all their reputations are on the line as well.

Greg Feek has been trying to disentangle himself from the national squad for some time.

As for Smal and Kiss; I'd imagine the world of rugby coaching is not that secure that you can resign in a huff over the head coach's selections.

bilston · 06-11-2012 4:04pm

.ak wrote: »

Well, in fairness, SA is our lucky team when it comes to the big three. But they're playing much better than the last time we met them, and we're playing much worse. We're also running on a skeleton crew. I'd say your prediction of 2/3 is spot on.

SA are nowehere near full strength, they're probably sending their least experienced side here in years so I think that might level the playing field a bit. If Healy and O'Connell play then I fancy we might win.

irishbucsfan · 06-11-2012 4:04pm

Hopefully they'll win 8/8 in their next games. It'd be interesting to see how boards.ie reacted to that!

Quint2010 · 06-11-2012 4:05pm

It's only really the Murray over Reddan call I have a massive problem with-particularly with Sexton at OH. I honestly believe DOC has a number of his caps because of his partnership with POC. And thats fine. So why hasn't Kidney done the same with Reddan/Sexton? Think he is missing a huge trick here.

totallegend · 06-11-2012 4:09pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Hopefully they'll win 8/8 in their next games. It'd be interesting to see how boards.ie reacted to that!

Tumbleweeds blowing through the place I'd imagine; a lot of vocal posters (me included) looking for a rock to crawl under for a while before re-reging and claiming DK to be the messiah.

ssaye · 06-11-2012 4:10pm

Principal Skinner wrote: »

Wouldn't be that confident about winning the Argentina game.... They will have gained a lot from their first season in the rugby championship. They put up a lot of good displays

That's why a win of 1-15 points is probable imo. They dont travel brilliantly.
They have never beaten Ireland in Lansdowne/AVIVA and I just can't see it even with injuries.

Foxtrol · 06-11-2012 4:17pm

totallegend wrote: »

Tumbleweeds blowing through the place I'd imagine; a lot of vocal posters (me included) looking for a rock to crawl under for a while before re-reging and claiming DK to be the messiah.

Nah it wouldn’t make the terrible selections/brand of rugby over the last few years ok so I don’t think anyone would be hiding for what they said. After the last 3 years of his reign Kidney would need to do a hell of a lot to change my opinion of him as a coach but 8/8 would be a start.

jm08 · 06-11-2012 4:24pm

totallegend wrote: »

Greg Feek has been trying to disentangle himself from the national squad for some time.

As for Smal and Kiss; I'd imagine the world of rugby coaching is not that secure that you can resign in a huff over the head coach's selections.

No one could make Feek coach Ireland if he didn't want to as he has a contract to coach Leinster. Also remember, Feek is the one who seems to have brought Bent into the camp.

Smal and Kiss have been around long enough to know the score. I'd say Australia would have loved Kiss just after the world cup when they were changing their coaching team (McGahan got a job) and Gert Small was the front runner for the SA job until he announced he wasn't interested.

ssaye · 06-11-2012 4:24pm

Ireland 10/1 for Grand Slam

15/8 for AI which is poor imo on both counts

Mr.Applepie · 06-11-2012 4:30pm

who_me wrote: »

When Kidney took over ('08) Munster were HEC champions, and were one of the top teams in Europe in '09... up until a certain game. So in this case, his "Munster bias" could simply be his tendency to be overly-loyal to the incumbent players - which he had even when Munster coach.

Yes they were, what about 2010, 2011 & 2012? My post wasn't about who was the better team. It was about how it is relatively straightforward to get into the Irish setup if you play for Munster.

who_me wrote: »

Hurley and Kilcoyne have been in great form this season, but I doubt either should or will make the team. If you're suggesting Zebo or O'Mahoney shouldn't be there you're way out on a limb..

Neither of them are close to international standard. Hurley is Heiniken Cup level at best (and that's pushing it). Kilcoyne is a prospect if he can learn to scrummage. If he is there as a young guy to get some experience of the setup, maybe have a few scrum sessions with Feek - all well and good. He should be nowhere near the 23 though.

Even if you considered Zebo & Gilroy to be on a par last season - Zebo (the Munster man) gets a start for Ireland. Will Gilroy even make a 23 man squad this year?

I think POM should be in the squad and would be the perfect bench option. Again though it's about the ease with which POM made it into the squad unlike someone like SOB who had to wave his European Player of the Year medal around before he even made the squad!

I was trying to think of a non-Munster player who has had a similarly easy time
Healy - No
Best - Capped
Court - Was he capped?
Ross - No
Touhy - No
Locky - No
SOB - No
Heaslip - Capped
Sexton - No
McFadden - Maybe?
Gilroy - Not capped so no
Henry - No
Marshall - Has he been capped yet?
Cave - No
Anyone from Connacht - No

jm08 · 06-11-2012 4:41pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Kidney was coach (as he was when Dowling was getting A caps also a head of more deserving players).

Who were the more deserving players who missed a cap on the tour to Canada & USA, bearing in mind the whole Leinster squad were preparing for a Heineken Cup or heading off on a Lions Tour.

JustinDee · 06-11-2012 4:43pm

Mr.Applepie wrote: »

Again though it's about the ease with which POM made it into the squad unlike someone like SOB who had to wave his European Player of the Year medal around before he even made the squad!

Sean O'Brien played for Ireland before that ERC award.
Made debut in 2009 (where he had a great game against Bokke at Croke Pk), played one test (if I remember correctly) in 2010 against Samoa at Aviva Stadium (struggled in that game) and featured throughout the subsequent Six Nations. He missed out the 2009 tour through injury.

DeDoc · 06-11-2012 4:45pm

bilston wrote: »

Is there anywhere on the tinterweb where you can find an easy access list of players that have won their first caps under Kidney's regime? I'd be genuinely interested to see it. I know I could go to irishrugby.ie and trawl through the player profiles but that might take a while.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of debutants in the Kidney years by province. I have no idea how it would look but would be interesting to see.

Not quite up to date, but there is a table here in something I wrote that has a list

http://www.thinkbetprofit.com/forums/showthread.php?p=175714#post175714

Foxtrol · 06-11-2012 4:53pm

jm08 wrote: »

Who were the more deserving players who missed a cap on the tour to Canada & USA, bearing in mind the whole Leinster squad were preparing for a Heineken Cup or heading off on a Lions Tour.

Fionn Carr - at 23 playing for the worst side in the league but being second to top try scorer. There was absolutely no benefit to starting in starting Dowling, he was and never would be anything other than solid and the reasons against starting Carr were the exact same as those to not start Zebo in NZ.

Foxtrol · 06-11-2012 5:01pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Sean O'Brien played for Ireland before that ERC award.
Made debut in 2009 (where he had a great game against Bokke at Croke Pk), played one test (if I remember correctly) in 2010 against Samoa at Aviva Stadium (struggled in that game) and featured throughout the subsequent Six Nations. He missed out the 2009 tour through injury.

He didn't struggle against Samoa he just didnt set the world on fire. If you're trying to join up why he was dropped for the NZ game to that performance Hayes was murdered by the Samoan scrum yet benched against NZ. SOB was in unbelievable form for Leinster yet Leamy, who on the other hand was playing like a drain, was selected on the bench for both the big games. Typical sort of Kidney "development" of non-Munster players.

bilston · 06-11-2012 5:08pm

DeDoc wrote: »

Not quite up to date, but there is a table here in something I wrote that has a list

http://www.thinkbetprofit.com/forums/showthread.php?p=175714#post175714

Thjanks for that, I actually went through Irishrugby.ie to try and figure it out myself before I saw your post.

Dating back to November 2008 I came up with 29 new caps under Kidney.

Munster (11)
Keith Earls
Barry Murphy
Ian Dowling
Niall Ronan
Donnacha Ryan
Denis Hurley
Damien Varley
Felix Jones
Conor Murray
Peter O'Mahony
Simon Zebo

Leinster (8)
**Ian Keatley
Cian Healy
Jonathan Sexton
Sean O'Brien
Kevin McLaughlin
Rys Ruddock
Devin Toner
Fergus McFadden

Ulster (5)
Darren Cave
Ian Whitten
Ryan Caldwell
Dan Tuohy
Declan Fitzpatrick

Connacht (4)
John Muldoon
Sean Cronin
Mike McCarthy
Ronan Loughney

*Harlequins (1)
Mike Ross

*I think Ross hadn't officially joined Leinster when he was first capped?
** As far as I know Keatley joined Connacht at the start of the 2009/10 season so again he'd have been officially a Leinster player in 2009 when he made his debut...I think...

I don't think the above proves or disproves anything in terms of bias or not. Mind you looking at some of the names that hyave been capped you have to think that some average enough players have won caps in the last four years, although to be fair some of those would have won caps during the Lions tour in 2009.

JustinDee · 06-11-2012 5:09pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

He didn't struggle against Samoa he just didnt set the world on fire. If you're trying to join up why he was dropped for the NZ game to that performance Hayes was murdered by the Samoan scrum yet benched against NZ. SOB was in unbelievable form for Leinster yet Leamy, who on the other hand was playing like a drain, was selected on the bench for both the big games. Typical sort of Kidney "development" of non-Munster players.

The poster said that O'Brien didn't make the squad until after receiving a player award in 2011. Just pointing out that this was not the case.
That's all.

jm08 · 06-11-2012 5:10pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Fionn Carr - at 23 playing for the worst side in the league but being second to top try scorer. There was absolutely no benefit to starting in starting Dowling, he was and never would be anything other than solid and the reasons against starting Carr were the exact same as those to not start Zebo in NZ.

Carr was selected to go to the Churchill Cup (along with Sexton, Healy, McFadden and a lot of others who have all been capped since).

In hindsight Kidney got the Carr call correct.

Now, name any player who has become an international (even starter for a provincial team) who was available and done out of a chance by the selection of Ian Dowling?

Foxtrol · 06-11-2012 5:35pm

jm08 wrote: »

Carr was selected to go to the Churchill Cup (along with Sexton, Healy, McFadden and a lot of others who have all been capped since).

In hindsight Kidney got the Carr call correct.

Now, name any player who has become an international (even starter for a provincial team) who was available and done out of a chance by the selection of Ian Dowling?

Who says the international snub (and continued snubs thereafter) didn’t affect Carr’s confidence? As posters (probably including you) say when they’re talking about Kilcoyne or Archer (or any other Munster player who have been undeservedly fast tracked into the squad ahead of others), might it not have benefited him to have been involved with the set up for longer, getting a cap playing with a higher standard of player (like I believe it did Zebo)? Where would Dowling be now if he didn’t retire, despite Carr not kicking on since he joined Leinster he’d still be in my teamsheet ahead of a solid Dowling.

Anyway as has been said before it’s not one selection in isolation, it’s the sum of all those 50-50 (at best) calls going Munster players ways since Kidney took control.

jm08 · 06-11-2012 5:47pm

bilston wrote: »

Thjanks for that, I actually went through Irishrugby.ie to try and figure it out myself before I saw your post.

Dating back to November 2008 I came up with 29 new caps under Kidney.

Munster (11)
Keith Earls
Barry Murphy
Ian Dowling
Niall Ronan
Donnacha Ryan
Denis Hurley
Damien Varley
Felix Jones
Conor Murray
Peter O'Mahony
Simon Zebo

Leinster (8)
**Ian Keatley
Cian Healy
Jonathan Sexton
Sean O'Brien
Kevin McLaughlin
Rys Ruddock
Devin Toner
Fergus McFadden

Ulster (5) - (7)
Darren Cave
Ian Whitten
Ryan Caldwell
Dan Tuohy
Declan Fitzpatrick
Tom Court (made debut v Italy Feb 2009)
Chris Henry (made debut v Aus 2010)

Connacht (4)
John Muldoon
Sean Cronin
Mike McCarthy
Ronan Loughney

*Harlequins (1)
Mike Ross

Highlighted those that are missing from the list.

Here is a full list of Ireland caps and when they got them:

http://www.espnscrum.com/ireland/rugby/player/caps.html?team=3

jm08 · 06-11-2012 5:54pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Who says the international snub (and continued snubs thereafter) didn’t affect Carr’s confidence? As posters (probably including you) say when they’re talking about Kilcoyne or Archer (or any other Munster player who have been undeservedly fast tracked into the squad ahead of others), might it not have benefited him to have been involved with the set up for longer, getting a cap playing with a higher standard of player (like I believe it did Zebo)? Where would Dowling be now if he didn’t retire, despite Carr not kicking on since he joined Leinster he’d still be in my teamsheet ahead of a solid Dowling.

Anyway as has been said before it’s not one selection in isolation, it’s the sum of all those 50-50 (at best) calls going Munster players ways since Kidney took control.

First of all, the team that toured Canada & USA were basically any player who could give them a decent game as there was a Lions tour on and Leinster were involved in the Heineken Cup. Dowling (with 2 Heineken Cup medals) could obviously do that - give me Ian Dowling any day over Carr.

Carr was selected for the Churchill Cup where there were better players around him. Don't know what happened, but he didn't feature in the final.

Burgo · 06-11-2012 6:02pm

jm08 wrote: »

Highlighted those that are missing from the list.

Here is a full list of Ireland caps and when they got them:

http://www.espnscrum.com/ireland/rugby/player/caps.html?team=3

Thanks for that, It's interesting to note that Ireland have the least amount of new caps in the past 2 years in comparison to Wales(19),England(19) and Scotland(13) to Irelands 8.

totallegend · 06-11-2012 6:02pm

To be fair, summer 2009 should be disregarded in this context. Getting a cap on that tour was pretty meaningless so I don't think it can be used on either side of the argument.

Foxtrol · 06-11-2012 6:18pm

totallegend wrote: »

To be fair, summer 2009 should be disregarded in this context. Getting a cap on that tour was pretty meaningless so I don't think it can be used on either side of the argument.

You can make direct comparisons between Carr and Zebo and how Kidney treated them at similar points in their career. Demented Mole actually wrote something about it at some point.

jm08 · 06-11-2012 6:29pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'm sure they would, but they would do it in private and we'd never hear about it. Ultimately Kidney has the last say.

I'm also iffy on Gert 'Buckley could be the best TH in the world' Smal's selectoral abilities.

I find it difficult to really judge Kidney's character or how he would run a team as he is frustratingly vague and secretive.

Is Buckley still in the squad?

Note he said could be the best TH in the world. He didn't say he was.

Lelantos · 06-11-2012 6:35pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

You can make direct comparisons between Carr and Zebo and how Kidney treated them at similar points in their career. Demented Mole actually wrote something about it at some point.

Not sure what's meant here, are we saying that Kidney didn't treat Carr well?

jm08 · 06-11-2012 6:36pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

You can make direct comparisons between Carr and Zebo and how Kidney treated them at similar points in their career. Demented Mole actually wrote something about it at some point.

The biggest affect on Carr's career was leaving Connacht to warm the pine in Leinster. Despite having one of the best back's coaches around and very good players around him, he hasn't kicked on (in comparison to some other Leinster players like Kearney Jun).

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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