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laws on handymen

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    #32
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    duckcfc wrote: »
    We are plasterers and excellent plasterers at that. We don't need some Micky mouse paper telling us were plasterers. Just between 3 of us(there's more) we have 80 yes experience gathered up plastering, working here and England. Dont think for one min we aren't plasterers and some kid that's just left collage with papers is. If I where needing a plasterer to do work for me, I know what one I'd choose

    one question, whats the acceptable tolerance (in mm) in the workmanship of plasterwork on the surface plane of an internal wall ?

    also whats the allowed tolerance in vertical finish (plumb) ?


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    #33
    Dr Turk Turkelton
    Registered Users Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭Dr Turk Turkelton


    duckcfc wrote: »
    We are plasterers and excellent plasterers at that. We don't need some Micky mouse paper telling us were plasterers. Just between 3 of us(there's more) we have 80 yes experience gathered up plastering, working here and England. Dont think for one min we aren't plasterers and some kid that's just left collage with papers is. If I where needing a plasterer to do work for me, I know what one I'd choose

    The qualified one that spent four years earning crap money and going to college to learn the intricacies of his chosen trade to become a master craftsman?

    'Cause that's the one I sure as hell would be choosing as well.


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    #34
    duckcfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭duckcfc


    Dr Turk Turkelton wrote: »
    The qualified one that spent four years earning crap money and going to college to learn the intricacies of his chosen trade to become a master craftsman?

    'Cause that's the one I sure as hell would be choosing as well.

    I forgot where I was for a sec until I realized I was on the internet. A gang of plasterers with 80 years experience over some kid just out of collage any day of the week for any one with an ounce of sense. There's things that kid couldn't possibly know about by learning from books in college. It takes years of experience out on the tools to make one a good tradesman, not sitting with your head in a book all day!!


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    #35
    duckcfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭duckcfc


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    one question, whats the acceptable tolerance (in mm) in the workmanship of plasterwork on the surface plane of an internal wall ?

    also whats the allowed tolerance in vertical finish (plumb) ?

    Listen, I'm not getting into your silly games so you can sit there with your chest out thinking your the smart guy because you've been right by 0.01 of a mm. I've seen skim coat go on at 5mm thick with some plasterers and sand cement go on as little as qtr inch or inch thick and its still standing 2 decades after applied. Is it right going by books, no, is it right out in tge real world, you bet your balls it is! Yes you'll find in some book that that isn't the allowed tolerance but the fact remains, the job was finished well and still is a good finish 2 decades down the line.

    That's the problem with today's world, they think because they've seen something in a book then it must be right lol.


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    #36
    masonchat
    Registered Users Posts: 663 ✭✭✭masonchat


    duckcfc wrote: »
    I forgot where I was for a sec until I realized I was on the internet. A gang of plasterers with 80 years experience over some kid just out of collage any day of the week for any one with an ounce of sense. There's things that kid couldn't possibly know about by learning from books in college. It takes years of experience out on the tools to make one a good tradesman, not sitting with your head in a book all day!!


    To be fair this is not a true reflection , it can depend a lot on who the apprentice serves his time with, hopefully a good trades man oops trades person .

    They will normally spend minimum 4 years with said trades person or multiple trades people.

    They will have 3 off site phases 10weeks*2 and a 20week phase, where in my case you build project after project and each one is inspected thoroughly with a + or - 3mm tolerance allowed.

    And you really get experience in things that in this day and age you are very unlikely to gain on site , as well as that you cover all the theory .

    The plasters were in the same complex and i saw them doing moulds and stuff again probably parts of the trade that they are unlikely to encounter too often on site or at least would find it hard to get experience in.

    So while i agree you cant beat real life building , it is very unfair to dismiss a qualified trades person as you have, thats not saying for 1 second that you dont know your trade


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    #37
    Kristopherus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,907 ✭✭✭✭Kristopherus


    masonchat wrote: »
    On the 1st March 2014, new regulations (S.I. 9 of 2014) relating to the
    commencement and certification of construction works come into effect.
    For certain building works, the new regulations require that certificates of
    compliance and other documents must be submitted
    with the Commencement Notice.

    The additional requirements also include:
    • the nomination of a competent ‘Assigned Certifier’ to inspect and
    certify the works,
    • the assignment of a competent builder to carry out the works,
    • the submission of certificates of compliance on completion.

    The additional requirements apply to the following works:
    Construction of a dwelling
    Extension of a dwelling by more than 40 square metres.
    Works which require a Fire Safety Certificate.

    Any Commencement Notice submitted after the 1st March 2014, which come within
    the scope of S.I 9 of 2014
    must fill out an online assessment of the proposed approach to compliance with
    the Building Regulations
    and be accompanied by the following:
    • Certificate of Compliance (Design),
    • Notice of Assignment of Person to Inspect and Certify Works (Assigned Certifier),
    • Undertaking by Assigned Certifier,
    • Notice of Assignment of Builder,
    • Undertaking by builder
    • General arrangement drawings for building control purposes –
    plans, sections and elevations;
    • A schedule of design documents currently prepared or to be prepared at a later date,
    • The preliminary inspection plan,
    • Any other documents deemed appropriate by the Assigned Certifier.

    REFERENCE - LOCALGOV.IE WEBSITE

    Are you sure that regulations have been issued under that S.I.?


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    #38
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    duckcfc wrote: »
    Listen, I'm not getting into your silly games so you can sit there with your chest out thinking your the smart guy because you've been right by 0.01 of a mm. I've seen skim coat go on at 5mm thick with some plasterers and sand cement go on as little as qtr inch or inch thick and its still standing 2 decades after applied. Is it right going by books, no, is it right out in tge real world, you bet your balls it is! Yes you'll find in some book that that isn't the allowed tolerance but the fact remains, the job was finished well and still is a good finish 2 decades down the line.

    That's the problem with today's world, they think because they've seen something in a book then it must be right lol.

    thats fine, if you dont know just say so.

    the reason i ask is if you are asked to provide certification that your work complies with proper regulations, can you do so if you dont even know what the standards are???

    i bet the green horn straight out of college with his certificate of competency after 4 years of training would know......


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    #39
    masonchat
    Registered Users Posts: 663 ✭✭✭masonchat


    Kristopherus wrote: »
    Are you sure that regulations have been issued under that S.I.?


    nope not sure at all , was told to google si9 so i did here http://si9.ie/


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    #40
    duckcfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭duckcfc


    BryanF wrote: »
    This sums up a major problem irish homeowners face! 'Some insulation''that'll cover ya'... Mold, carbon monoxide, carcinogen's..


    What ya talking about. So its safe in 2013 to renovate a cottage but low and behold, in 2014 it ain't. When I say some insulation, I mean to building regs, not just any aul sh1te.


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    #41
    duckcfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭duckcfc


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    thats fine, if you dont know just say so.

    the reason i ask is if you are asked to provide certification that your work complies with proper regulations, can you do so if you dont even know what the standards are???

    i bet the green horn straight out of college with his certificate of competency after 4 years of training would know......

    That's fine if I don't know lol. I've explained it to you before. It doesn't matter here or there if its a few mm out of proper regs. Who in the right mind is going to check or even know if skim isn't 2/3mm or the scratch coat isn't 10-12mm. Like I've said before, it can go on thicker or thinner and there's no way of checking. Yes you'll get some smart guy thinking he's top man because he's put it in black and white on abit of paper, but the fact remains there's not a hope in hell you'll get the same thickness all over the wall with whatever coats been put on. Only an idiot would think otherwise and that brings me onto my next point, that's what's wrong with this country, men in suits think they know how tradesmen work when in fact, its them who know jack sh1t!!


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    #42
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    What's wrong with this country is the "but sure this is how I've always done it" dinosaurs still are working without understanding in the skills and workmanship of modern construction.


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    #43
    duckcfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭duckcfc


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    What's wrong with this country is the "but sure this is how I've always done it" dinosaurs still are working without understanding in the skills and workmanship of modern construction.

    Skdtgebrat, I've seen you slate these new changes so your in no position to come of with such nonsense. I do understand what you say but come on now, anyone with any sense knows if someone is in the game for 30 years can and will do a great job. Im all for change but don't for one min think because some kid comes out of collage and put in paper that the wall is plastered 2mm here and 10 mm here that he can do a better job than some dinaosare. Yes your point might look good on 'thee internet' but in the real world, you and I know I'm right.


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    #44
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    duckcfc wrote: »
    Skdtgebrat, I've seen you slate these new changes so your in no position to come of with such nonsense. .

    Please make your point without personal abuse.

    Please read the forum charter before posting again. Thanks

    Rebut the post not the poster


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    #45
    hoodrats
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭hoodrats


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    What's wrong with this country is the "but sure this is how I've always done it" dinosaurs still are working without understanding in the skills and workmanship of modern construction.

    so you are saying that all the older plasterers without some form of qualification on paperwork have being doing it wrong for all those years and these lads training up in fas, learning the new skills of modern construction are master craftsmen that wont leave a millimetre of a gap behind the level , thats just a ridiculous argument.
    while being a good lad on paper might be relevant to being an engineer or architect its not to being a plasterer , bricklayer etc.
    anybody ive ever seen who was looking to employ a plasterer they wanted to see previous work they did not what paperwork they have in their filing cabinet. some of the best craftsmen in this country never spent a day in college to learn their trade.


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    #46
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    one question, whats the acceptable tolerance (in mm) in the workmanship of plasterwork on the surface plane of an internal wall ?

    also whats the allowed tolerance in vertical finish (plumb) ?

    Syd I'm a plasterer myself and don't know the tolerances , is it +5 , -2mm ?
    I don't know the vertical finish tolerances at all .
    The last architect I worked for told me there was no tolerance at all on his jobs !

    Are there many FAS qualified plasterers out there ? I think CIF sent out an email a couple of months ago encouraging members to to try and take on wet trade apprentices or there won't be many left when they're needed .I only know one qualified plasterer and he works in a nursing home now !

    Will you tell us the tolerances please ?


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    #47
    duckcfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭duckcfc


    Bullocks wrote: »
    Syd I'm a plasterer myself and don't know the tolerances , is it +5 , -2mm ?
    I don't know the vertical finish tolerances at all .
    The last architect I worked for told me there was no tolerance at all on his jobs !

    Are there many FAS qualified plasterers out there ? I think CIF sent out an email a couple of months ago encouraging members to to try and take on wet trade apprentices or there won't be many left when they're needed .I only know one qualified plasterer and he works in a nursing home now !

    Will you tell us the tolerances please ?

    Think he was just trolling TBH because who really gives a flying hoot what the scientific term is, as long as someone leaves a good job, that's all that matters to the customers.


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    #48
    fozz10
    Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭fozz10


    Ill tell ye what, I learned under one of the best plasterers around the county i live in. spent 5 years with him. I done my first 5 months in fas in 2001 and then never went back as we were too busy and as mentioned i never needed papers to get a job, i built up a good reputation around over the years and always stayed working even through the bad times. when you are good people couldnt give a sh*t and why should they? the amount of useless plasterers around is incredible and alot of them had papers. ive spent 13 years working with some good plasterers and some terrible ones, and i can tell ye papers mean absolutely nothing. and just so ye dont think i am just saying that cause i didnt finish fas, i went back 3 years ago and finished out my college to get my papers as i was planning to give it up to do a degree and i thought i should get them in case i need them at a later date. well what a waist of time. its like going into juniors when you are 20. i learned nothing i didnt learn from working with good people. and tbh the guys there knew nothing and learned nothing. if you are good it is not because you went to fas. i can safely say that i would not pay one of the 12/13 "plasterers" that were also finishing up their time to do days work with me. it was pretty much the same in 2001. probably 50% of em couldnt be trusted to skim a small room. going through the joke that was or is fas means nothing. papers have no say in plastering and thank god for that. you learn with the right people and show interest in doing it right and work hard, thats how you become a good plasterer.


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    #49
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Bullocks wrote: »
    Syd I'm a plasterer myself and don't know the tolerances , is it +5 , -2mm ?
    I don't know the vertical finish tolerances at all .
    The last architect I worked for told me there was no tolerance at all on his jobs !

    Are there many FAS qualified plasterers out there ? I think CIF sent out an email a couple of months ago encouraging members to to try and take on wet trade apprentices or there won't be many left when they're needed .I only know one qualified plasterer and he works in a nursing home now !

    Will you tell us the tolerances please ?

    its +/-10mm on the surface plane between corners, and +/-5mmm on the vertical plumb

    BS EN 13914-2 : 2005


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    #50
    masonchat
    Registered Users Posts: 663 ✭✭✭masonchat


    This arguement is getting a bit stupid , there is no reason why someone who has their papers should be any worse or better than someone who served their time with a trades person but didnt do it officially and vise versa.

    I was also lucky enough to serve my time with the best masons in my area , so would i not be as good had i served my time with them but not gone to fas ? no i dont think so , fas did nothing to increase my standards as they were set by my employer and myself , am i glad i did it ? yes .

    It reallly boils down to , do you know your stuff and do you have high standards, papers dont prove anything but it is nice to have them


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    #51
    hoodrats
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭hoodrats


    masonchat wrote: »
    This arguement is getting a bit stupid , there is no reason why someone who has their papers should be any worse or better than someone who served their time with a trades person but didnt do it officially and vise versa.

    I was also lucky enough to serve my time with the best masons in my area , so would i not be as good had i served my time with them but not gone to fas ? no i dont think so , fas did nothing to increase my standards as they were set by my employer and myself , am i glad i did it ? yes .

    It reallly boils down to , do you know your stuff and do you have high standards, papers dont prove anything but it is nice to have them

    its good to have the papers at the moment because you need them , but theres a lot of good men being put out of work because of not having them.


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    #52
    scwazrh
    Registered Users Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭scwazrh


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    its +/-10mm on the surface plane between corners, and +/-5mmm on the vertical plumb

    BS EN 13914-2 : 2005

    Over what area ?

    Standard in British building regs. is a 2m straight edge and if one of my plasterers skimmed a wall with a 10mm bump in it , they would be sacked straight away. Even though their work would be within the current regulations


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    #53
    duckcfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭duckcfc


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    its +/-10mm on the surface plane between corners, and +/-5mmm on the vertical plumb

    BS EN 13914-2 : 2005

    Who ever came up with these numbers clearly knows nothing about plastering.


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    #54
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    duckcfc wrote: »
    Who ever came up with these numbers clearly knows nothing about plastering.

    You really are the gift that keeps giving ;)


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    #55
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    scwazrh wrote: »
    Over what area ?

    Standard in British building regs. is a 2m straight edge and if one of my plasterers skimmed a wall with a 10mm bump in it , they would be sacked straight away. Even though their work would be within the current regulations

    BS Codes are not British building regulations. They are Brittish Standards and out Building Regulations and Technical Guidance Documents are closely linked and in fact our TGD's actually refer to the equivalent BS Cide if it's better or a similar standard.


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    #56
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    its +/-10mm on the surface plane between corners, and +/-5mmm on the vertical plumb

    BS EN 13914-2 : 2005

    Thanks syd , I reckon thats loose enough for me to pass within anyhow ! I was stopped €1400 retention money a few years ago because two sides of a reveal were 2mm off square , I think it was more a case of the builder going bust than quality issues really .
    Are the same tolerances applicable to blocklayers or chippies I wonder ?


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    #57
    duckcfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭duckcfc


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    You really are the gift that keeps giving ;)

    Think about it for a sec now, your saying it can be out 5mm and in 5mm in places and out 10mm and in 10mm. If any plasterer worked with me and left a wall like this, he'd be getting a clip around the ear and a mix of skim threw round him.


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    #58
    duckcfc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 616 ✭✭✭duckcfc


    Bullocks wrote: »
    Thanks syd , I reckon thats loose enough for me to pass within anyhow ! I was stopped €1400 retention money a few years ago because two sides of a reveal were 2mm off square , I think it was more a case of the builder going bust than quality issues really .
    Are the same tolerances applicable to blocklayers or chippies I wonder ?


    A builder didn't give you 1400€ because a reveal was out of sq by 2mm! Am I reading this right. Was the reveal a on small or large window/door?


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    #59
    Bullocks
    Registered Users Posts: 5,890 ✭✭✭Bullocks


    duckcfc wrote: »
    A builder didn't give you 1400€ because a reveal was out of sq by 2mm! Am I reading this right. Was the reveal a on small or large window/door?

    Two different windows , they were about 4' x 5' in size . He found a side on one and a head on the other were off square . Builder reckoned the engineer wouldn't sign off until they were put right but as I said the builder was running out of money . On the same job the roofer and tiler got similar treatment . He went burst after it so I didn't bother persuing the last few pound


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    #60
    Andrew_Doran
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Andrew_Doran


    duckcfc wrote: »
    We are plasterers and excellent plasterers at that. We don't need some Micky mouse paper telling us were plasterers. Just between 3 of us(there's more) we have 80 yes experience gathered up plastering, working here and England. Dont think for one min we aren't plasterers and some kid that's just left collage with papers is. If I where needing a plasterer to do work for me, I know what one I'd choose

    Using bits of paper and your pals in government to turn your competitors into criminals overnight is a very old idea.

    The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. -- Tacitus, Roman Senator

    When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing—when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors—when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you—when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice—you may know that your society is doomed. – Ayn Rand; Atlas Shrugged, 1957

    Gas men
    Electricans
    Architects (arch techs!!)
    Builders
    Who's next - mechanics? hairdressers?


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    #61
    bertie 56
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭bertie 56


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    its +/-10mm on the surface plane between corners, and +/-5mmm on the vertical plumb

    BS EN 13914-2 : 2005

    I understand now why all my shelves are crooked ! :eek:

    :D:D:D


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