How should Palestine defend itself?

sid waddell · 25-07-2014 2:40am #1

Is self-defence something that is only allowed for Israelis, or is it a two-way street?

How should Catholics in Belfast in 1969 have reacted when they were being burned out of their houses? Were they right to take matters into their own hands rather than relying on a police force that actively discriminated against them? Did they have the right to defend themselves?

Did the people of the Warsaw Ghetto have the right to defend themselves in 1944 when they faced being massacred?

What should the Palestinians do to defend themselves, given that by any observable historical criteria, they are the ones that have suffered at the hands of a historical and continued oppresor?

Have they a right to do anything at all, or is that right only reserved for Israel?

Do oppressed peoples ever, in fact, have a right to fight back?

Iwasfrozen · 25-07-2014 4:44am

Do oppressed peoples ever, in fact, have a right to fight back?

Yes. When it doesn't put civilians in danger.

blatantrereg · 25-07-2014 5:02am

Hamas aren't fighting back in the way most people would understand it. Their goals are not liberation but escalation and martyrdom. It is the extreme opposite to defending themselves.

Palestinians are very divided. Hamas cannot be taken to represent Palestinians as a whole, or even a majority of them.

I'm not defending Israel at all.

smcgiff · 25-07-2014 5:30am

That's a loaded question OP.

What the Isralies are doing is exactly what Hamas want. They are getting the publicity they want.

Israel are wrong in their level of response and their increased settlements in occupied territory is wrong.

It's a clash of cultures. Israel has a persecution complex, which is not helped by being surrounded by a lot of countries that are aggressive towards them.

Hamas, on the other hand, haven't heard of a news report of killed civilians they haven't liked.

Macha · 25-07-2014 6:01am

blatantrereg wrote: »

Hamas aren't fighting back in the way most people would understand it. Their goals are not liberation but escalation and martyrdom. It is the extreme opposite to defending themselves.

Palestinians are very divided. Hamas cannot be taken to represent Palestinians as a whole, or even a majority of them.

I'm not defending Israel at all.

Much as I object to Hamas's military tactics, it is the elected government of Gaza. Moreover, just a few weeks ago, Hamas and the PA had signed a deal to create a unity government (which the more cynical, including me, suspects is the real reason for the current Israeli attack). No doubt you will find people in Gaza who don't like them but probably no more than the complaints you would hear about the current Irish government. Plus, Israeli aggression boosts their popularity.

Gaza should had have the right to defend itself from a military aggressor in line with international law, just like any other country.

For those saying Hamas should stop firing rockets into Israel, I agree...but how better is the West Bank faring? The Israelis continue to occupy, terrorise the local population, grab land, build settlements, etc. even though they are not under threat of rocket attacks.

comongethappy · 25-07-2014 7:24am

"How should Palestine defend itself"

Unless your going to put some guidance systems into your rockets, its a waste of time.... don't bother.

Put your defence resources into better anti-air & anti-armour weapons.
(Most Israeli casualties are from armour being destroyed)

Put more concrete & steel in your roofs instead of tunnels.

25-07-2014 7:29am

They could drop trying to fire rockets at Israel for a start.

Gringo180 · 25-07-2014 12:24pm

Laura Tinkling Windfall wrote: »

They could drop trying to fire rockets at Israel for a start.

And continue to live under siege? Hamas wont sign up to any cease fire unless the siege is lifted, as any time they signed one the Israelis went back on there word and kept Gaza under blockade, which is wrong. I am coming to the conclusion that Israel doesn't want peace in the region.

F7Z · 25-07-2014 12:33pm

The only way the Palestinian people can stand up for themselves is to stand up to Hamas and other extremist groups and say no to their bull****. No to electing them to government, no to allowing them to store munitions in public buildings, etc. Easier said than done of course as Palestinians see them as the lesser of two evils when compared to Israel, and probably have a mass case of Stockholm syndrome since they are seen as "protectors" in an oxymoronic sense. I've discussed this at length with my close friend who is born to Palestinian parents and he agrees it's the only way out for the people of Gaza in particular. Stuck between two terrorist forces, but at least go for the one you can reach. First of all though the UN needs to pull its thumb out of its arse and intervene in what is basically genocide

comongethappy · 25-07-2014 12:36pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

Israel doesn't want peace in the region.

True....

So how better can Hamas defend Gaza?

sid waddell · 25-07-2014 12:39pm

Palestine tried for many, many years to negotiate with Israel. Some of you may remember the Oslo Agrreement of 1993.

How did that work out for them, and why did the talks break down?

Even though I already know the answer, I'd just like to see what answers others would give to that question in particular.

sid waddell · 25-07-2014 12:44pm

smcgiff wrote: »

That's a loaded question OP.

What the Isralies are doing is exactly what Hamas want. They are getting the publicity they want.

Israel are wrong in their level of response and their increased settlements in occupied territory is wrong.

It's a clash of cultures. Israel has a persecution complex, which is not helped by being surrounded by a lot of countries that are aggressive towards them.

Hamas, on the other hand, haven't heard of a news report of killed civilians they haven't liked.

You can make the case that every comment relating to the conflict is loaded.

I would make the point that every comment that purports to to take a supposedly "balanced" look at what's happening, is by definition unbalanced, because there is no evidence that this conflict has ever in it's near seven decade history, ever been in any way balanced.

Only by recognising the grotesque imbalance of the situation, can you attain balance in your views.

Gringo180 · 25-07-2014 3:36pm

Can the U.N not send in peace keepers to Gaza to put an end to IDF bombardment and try and negotiate with Hamas and Israel for firstly to put an end to the blockade and then a ceasefire ?

Nodin · 25-07-2014 3:52pm

F7Z wrote:

................First of all though the UN needs to pull its thumb out of its arse and intervene..............

Gringo180 wrote: »

Can the U.N not send in peace keepers to Gaza to put an end to IDF bombardment and try and negotiate with Hamas and Israel for firstly to put an end to the blockade and then a ceasefire ?

No. For any action like that they require a UNSC resolution. As the US has a veto, that's not going to happen. Likewise UN backed sanctions require a UNSC vote and again there's the veto. This didn't end up the clusterfuck it is because there's legal avenues available.

Gringo180 · 25-07-2014 4:43pm

Nodin wrote: »

No. For any action like that they require a UNSC resolution. As the US has a veto, that's not going to happen. Likewise UN backed sanctions require a UNSC vote and again there's the veto. This didn't end up the clusterfuck it is because there's legal avenues available.

Has the Chinese or Russians spoke out about this genocide?

Nodin · 25-07-2014 4:53pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

Has the Chinese or Russians spoke out about this genocide?

Think the Russians have. China traditionally doesn't care whats done as long as its not affected, with very few exceptions. Not that either of them actually give a rats ass either way in any event.

NewCorkLad · 25-07-2014 4:58pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

Has the Chinese or Russians spoke out about this genocide?

Russia is just enjoying the distraction from the Ukraine War and China couldn't careless

Mr.Micro · 25-07-2014 7:15pm

Gringo180 wrote: »

And continue to live under siege? Hamas wont sign up to any cease fire unless the siege is lifted, as any time they signed one the Israelis went back on there word and kept Gaza under blockade, which is wrong. I am coming to the conclusion that Israel doesn't want peace in the region.

If there was peace, Israel would have to face up to realty, return the territories, lift the siege, treat the Palistinians as human etc. That is just not going to happen.

MiloDublin · 25-07-2014 7:33pm

Fatah played nice and got nowhere (all process no peace). Hamas on the other hand managed to shut down Ben Gurion airport, they didn't kill anybody but targeted an economic life line, the right message to the right address. Next they need to aim at Israeli power plants and ports.

Mr.Micro · 25-07-2014 7:42pm

MiloDublin wrote: »

Fatah played nice and got nowhere (all process no peace). Hamas on the other hand managed to shut down Ben Gurion airport, they didn't kill anybody but targeted an economic life line, the right message to the right address. Next they need to aim at Israeli power plants and ports.

Where would that get the Palestinians? More deaths, as all Israel wants is any excuse to go even heavier on the people in Gaza. I do not not advocate violence by any side. Far better that the US gets real and sorts it's delinquent little brother out and force it to do the right thing...... Once and for all.

esteve · 25-07-2014 8:01pm

A quick look puts the Israeli death toll at approx 36, with 3 of those being civilians. That means that civilian deaths equal approx 8% with military deaths equalling approx 92%.

That figure is quite odd considering Hamas are recognised as a terrorist organisation by the US and Israel, and a militant group by the UK and others.

At the same time Palestinian deaths have exceeded 800. Very conservative figures put the number of civilian deaths at 50% of this figure.

How can the Hamas, relatively and literally, be killing far less civilians than the IDF? Please remember that the IDF pride themselves on being the 'most moral army in the world'.

I do not condone any deaths on both sides but if this a conflict, how is it that the terrorist group are killing far less civilians?

For any who wish to indulge with the human shield, bombs in schools argument, please move on as I am looking for a factual debate devoid of Israel PR and media spin.

To answer the original post, i believe that however Hamas are defending themselves, it would seem they are doing so in a far more humane way than the IDF. This confuses me consider what i am being told on mainstream media.

MiloDublin · 25-07-2014 8:04pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Where would that get the Palestinians? More deaths, as all Israel wants is any excuse to go even heavier on the people in Gaza. I do not not advocate violence by any side. Far better that the US gets real and sorts it's delinquent little brother out and force it to do the right thing...... Once and for all.

Israel needs to feel a price for their actions, they have had a free ride for too long hence advocacy for the economic angle.They bombed Gaza's only airport so what's sauce for the goose etc....
US will never sort it out. The media there doesn't tell the full story, the politicians are all in lockstep with AIPAC although interestingly the man on the street is apalled by how their tax dollars are being used. I just read some of 1500 comments on a New York Times Gaza article and almost universally they were ashamed, shocked, and angry about the massacres.

Manach · 25-07-2014 8:13pm

My 2c, both parties should do so within the scope of international law. This applies specially to the treatment of civilians in a war zone, who not withstanding their origins retain both rights and non-belligerent status. AFAIR this is core to the foundational document in the UN in Art2. Israel of course has a right to self-defence, but this has to be done in a proportate manner and as another poster (Esteve) pointed out, this seems disproportionate the amount of civilian causalities.
So unless it be shown otherwise, Hamas has to be accountable for the civilian Israeli loses but likewise the Israelis (akin to the Serbians in Kosovo) have to likewise responsible for the means and methods that have gone beyond legitimate use of force.

MiloDublin · 25-07-2014 8:18pm

blatantrereg wrote: »

Hamas aren't fighting back in the way most people would understand it. Their goals are not liberation but escalation and martyrdom. It is the extreme opposite to defending themselves.

Palestinians are very divided. Hamas cannot be taken to represent Palestinians as a whole, or even a majority of them.

I'm not defending Israel at all.

Palestinians are not divided. After the US brokered peace talks broke down and Kerry went home Fatah and Hamas formed a UNITY government in April 2014 which the EU recognised. When Gazans are being killed West Bank Palestinians take it as a body blow. They are being shot at now for demonstrating.

'Their goals are not liberation but escalation and martyrdom'
Let's stay in the real world. Hamas wants the lifting of the siege which is a totally legimate demand, read their ceasefire demands.

blatantrereg · 25-07-2014 11:21pm

MiloDublin wrote: »

Palestinians are not divided. After the US brokered peace talks broke down and Kerry went home Fatah and Hamas formed a UNITY government in April 2014 which the EU recognised. When Gazans are being killed West Bank Palestinians take it as a body blow. They are being shot at now for demonstrating.

'Their goals are not liberation but escalation and martyrdom'
Let's stay in the real world. Hamas wants the lifting of the siege which is a totally legimate demand, read their ceasefire demands.

On August 10, 2012, Ahmad Bahr, Deputy Speaker of the Hamas Parliament, stated in a sermon that aired on Al-Aqsa TV:

If the enemy sets foot on a single square inch of Islamic land, Jihad becomes an individual duty, incumbent on every Muslim, male or female. A woman may set out [on Jihad] without her husband's permission, and a servant without his master's permission. Why? In order to annihilate those Jews.... O Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. O Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. O Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.

According to a translation by Palestinian Media Watch, in 2008, Fathi Hamad, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, stated on Al-Aqsa TV, "For the Palestinian people death became an industry, at which women excel and so do all people on this land: the elderly excel, the Jihad fighters excel, and the children excel. Accordingly (Palestinians) created a human shield of women, children, the elderly and the Jihad fighters against the Zionist bombing machine, as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death as you desire life.'"[371]

In 2010, Hamas speaker Ahmad Bahr praised the virtues of martyrdom and Jihad, and said that 2.5 million black-eyed virgins were waiting in the Garden of Eden, which could be entered only by prophets, by the righteous, and by martyrs. He continued by saying that nobody on Earth "will be able to confront the resistance, or to confront the mujahideen, those who worship Allah and seek martyrdom".

- copied from Wikipedia.

There's tonnes of stuff like this and worse. It's not just Israeli propaganda. I am in the real world. Romanticising things into some noble underdog struggle is not.

Nodin · 25-07-2014 11:32pm

blatantrereg wrote: »

- copied from Wikipedia.

There's tonnes of stuff like this and worse. It's not just Israeli propaganda. I am in the real world. Romanticising things into some noble underdog struggle is not.

Whatever certain Palestinians believe, the fact is that they are the underdog, and they are the victims of an illegal program of colonisation.

blatantrereg · 25-07-2014 11:38pm

Nodin wrote: »

Whatever certain Palestinians believe, the fact is that they are the underdog, and they are the victims of an illegal program of colonisation.

Not even a tiny bit relevant to any point I made.

Nodin · 25-07-2014 11:40pm

blatantrereg wrote: »

Not even a tiny bit relevant to any point I made.

What point was that? Hamas contain some religious fundamentalists? Fairly sure we knew that.

BorneTobyWilde · 25-07-2014 11:52pm

Israel have killed innocent people and not by mistake. They murder them,even when it's clear as day who they're shooting at.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbkmCCTbU7U

wes · 26-07-2014 12:11am

blatantrereg wrote: »

- copied from Wikipedia.

There's tonnes of stuff like this and worse. It's not just Israeli propaganda. I am in the real world. Romanticising things into some noble underdog struggle is not.

Calls for genocide enter Israeli mainstream

--SNIP--
Ayelet Shaked, of economics minister Naftali Bennett’s Jewish Home party, calls on her Facebook page for murdering the mothers of what she terms Palestinian “terrorists” (a very broad concept indeed in current Israeli thinking) so that they cannot give birth to more “little snakes”:

They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists. They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists. …

[The terrorists] are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there.

--SNIP--

--SNIP--
Mordechai Kedar, a lecturer on Arabic literature at Bar Ilan University, believes the sisters and mothers of Palestinian “terrorists” should be raped:

A terrorist, like those who kidnapped the boys [in the West Bank on June 12] and killed them, the only thing that will deter them, is if they know that either their sister or mother will be raped if they are caught. What can we do? This is the culture that we live in.

Note that his university did not reprimand him. They defended his comments:

The purpose was to define the culture of death of the terrorist organizations. Dr Kedar illustrated in his words the bitter reality of the Middle East and the inability of a modern and law-abiding country to fight the terror of suicide bombers.

--SNIP--

--SNIP--
And finally we have Moshe Feiglin, a deputy speaker of the Israeli parliament and a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party, urging the Israeli army to kill Palestinians in Gaza indiscriminately and use every means possible to get them to leave:

[Netanyahu] announces that Israel is about to attack military targets in their area and urges those who are not involved and do not wish to be harmed to leave immediately. Sinai is not far from Gaza and they can leave. This will be the limit of Israel’s humanitarian efforts. … All the military and infrastructural targets will be attacked with no consideration for ‘human shields’ or ‘environmental damage’. …

The IDF will conquer the entire Gaza, using all the means necessary to minimize any harm to our soldiers, with no other considerations. … The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave.

--SNIP--

- See more at: http://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2014-07-21/calls-for-genocide-enter-israeli-mainstream/#sthash.YNGQdncM.dpuf

That is only recent stuff from the last few weeks. I could keep going for a very long time, if I started to really look for stuff. It interesting how we have extremists in Israel, in pretty high up positions, I might add, who easily say stuff just as bad as any extremist in Hamas, and yet they are let off the hook for some reason.

Sand · 26-07-2014 1:10pm

wes wrote: »

That is only recent stuff from the last few weeks. I could keep going for a very long time, if I started to really look for stuff. It interesting how we have extremists in Israel, in pretty high up positions, I might add, who easily say stuff just as bad as any extremist in Hamas, and yet they are let off the hook for some reason.

They're not let off the hook. They are named and shamed like you have done here. What is odd that when the Hamas government elected by has its leadership making statements like "O Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. O Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. O Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one" the same people who thank your post will make excuses for straight up genocidal statements of intent.

There is a high degree of bias there.

That said, the whole premise of the OPs question is fatally flawed. I don't think Hamas is doing the slightest thing to defend Palestinians. I think Israel would agree to a ceasefire today on simple terms of "You don't shoot rockets at us. We wont fire missiles at you". That would immediately end the losses of life on both sides. If that was the priority, both sides would embrace it.

But Hamas will not accept such terms, despite the terrible suffering of their people. Hamas are spending the lives and blood of Palestinian children to try and buy political or economic concessions.

Yet they are the plucky underdog in the propaganda of the Guardianistas.

How should Palestine defend itself?

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