Civil Defence to assist Gardaí

Capri · 28-01-2014 10:44am

An old Flying Squad like the ARU is all that's needed - judges seem to live on another planet :mad:

Sierra Oscar · 28-01-2014 12:26pm

In fairness, I think the judge was probably just looking to highlight the recent spate of violence in certain areas of Dublin and judging by the amount of discussion that it has generated he has achieved that. I don't think there was ever much serious thought given to getting CD involved in policing!

SNAKEDOC · 29-01-2014 1:20pm

bravestar wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, it is most certanly not a job for the army. They are not Police. If things aren't going well, more police with better gear, better training and a useful court system/ prison system is the answer.

Oh sorry, that probably costs money...

Hate to burst your bubble there but thats exactly what the army are for.
Definition of irish army includes aid to the civil power which is the gardai.
I know its not exactly the same thing but the troubles in the north saw army on all checkpoints at border crossings. Army patrols of bandit areas. Yes the army should be there to back up the gardai. There are not enough gardai NOW and it will be 18 months before there are new gardai on the streets. Too long to wait and even then yhey are fresh from training and green around the ears.
I know which id prefer to see.

Shady Tady · 29-01-2014 6:55pm

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Hate to burst your bubble there but thats exactly what the army are for.
Definition of irish army includes aid to the civil power which is the gardai.
I know its not exactly the same thing but the troubles in the north saw army on all checkpoints at border crossings. Army patrols of bandit areas. Yes the army should be there to back up the gardai. There are not enough gardai NOW and it will be 18 months before there are new gardai on the streets. Too long to wait and even then yhey are fresh from training and green around the ears.
I know which id prefer to see.

Hate to burst your bubble but it will never ever happen! Maybe the government should look at reducing army resources and give the savings towards garda recruitment!

SNAKEDOC · 29-01-2014 8:05pm

Shady Tady wrote: »

Hate to burst your bubble but it will never ever happen! Maybe the government should look at reducing army resources and give the savings towards garda recruitment!

I never said it would happen only you were wrong in stating the army was not there to back the gardai up which they are. Furthermore there is presedent there where the army was used to aid the gardai in times of civil unrest and national crisis. Please check your facts before posting. Why should the government cut back on the army they already have done so. If anyone is at fault for the state of the force it is the minister for the closure of so many stations and basic demoralisation of the force resulting in retirements like never before. The army hasnt stolen resources from the gardai. The funding could be made available without cutting the army but they simply dont.

bravestar · 29-01-2014 10:48pm

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

I never said it would happen only you were wrong in stating the army was not there to back the gardai up which they are. Furthermore there is presedent there where the army was used to aid the gardai in times of civil unrest and national crisis. Please check your facts before posting. Why should the government cut back on the army they already have done so. If anyone is at fault for the state of the force it is the minister for the closure of so many stations and basic demoralisation of the force resulting in retirements like never before. The army hasnt stolen resources from the gardai. The funding could be made available without cutting the army but they simply dont.

Bubble bursting...oh god. I'm well aware of what the army do in an aid to the civil power role, I've worked with them plenty of times.

Tell me, how much experience policing do you have? I'll go out on a limb and say none. You would be as useful as army. The army have been used, for more firepower, in situations that require it. That is not what anywhere needs right now. They need police.

SNAKEDOC · 29-01-2014 11:28pm

bravestar wrote: »

Bubble bursting...oh god. I'm well aware of what the army do in an aid to the civil power role, I've worked with them plenty of times.

Tell me, how much experience policing do you have? I'll go out on a limb and say none. You would be as useful as army. The army have been used, for more firepower, in situations that require it. That is not what anywhere needs right now. They need police.

You can go out on all the limbs you want does not mean your right. Dont be to quick to make assumptions. Did i say anywhere that the army should be put into places like tallaght.
All i have said is that the army have the capability as part of their mandate to aid the civil power and it has happened before. That is all. I was just clearing up incorrect info you had posted so as not to mislead someone else.
Get over yourself there bravestar.

bravestar · 30-01-2014 1:06am

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

You can go out on all the limbs you want does not mean your right. Dont be to quick to make assumptions. Did i say anywhere that the army should be put into places like tallaght.
All i have said is that the army have the capability as part of their mandate to aid the civil power and it has happened before. That is all. I was just clearing up incorrect info you had posted so as not to mislead someone else.
Get over yourself there bravestar.

Thanks, I'll try. This thread is about assisting in frontline policing duties... In relation to a judges comments. The CD/Army/Beavers are not fit for that, the same way AGS are not fit to be nurses.

Yes the army have a role to play in ATCP, but not in frontline policing. By the way, are you actually a member of the DF? I ask because a good friend of mine is a skipper with the MP's and for some bizarre reason, he agrees with me. He should probably get over himself too.

Locust · 30-01-2014 4:51am

Theres a hell of a lot more to policing than armed patrols and checkpoints...If the army were to help, that would only be a tiny tiny part.

Historically a lot of the times that soldiers (around the world) have been brought in to assist policing efforts it has resulted in unnecessary conflict...

Certainly in the North it was a very negative thing (granted there was a different dynamic) but even amongst the protestant population the army didn't help as much as it caused agitation and hindered policing.

Im not knocking the Army (who i know are very disciplined) but you would have a bunch of young testosterone charged soldiers who are trained to kill (training - screaming "What makes the grass grow? Blood! Bright Red Blood!") you want them to assist Gardai in policing a high crime area?
Do you realise the ramifications of what could happen in the multiple scenarios the Gardai deal with out on the streets?

Having a solider beside me at a checkpoint actually hinders my policing effort.

Let the soldiers - solider
Let the police - police

That Judge should be pushing the Ministers for more Gardai...

Shield · 01-02-2014 7:18am

Mod post:

Guys, come on, we're doing well here, there's potential for more good discussion to happen here.. don't get personal. Attack the post, not, and never, the poster. If you feel strongly about something, get your point across accordingly, but don't be tempted to get in a personal dig in the process just because someone doesn't agree with you.

Thanks for reading, and back on-topic please.

SNAKEDOC · 01-02-2014 8:55am

Locust wrote: »

Theres a hell of a lot more to policing than armed patrols and checkpoints...If the army were to help, that would only be a tiny tiny part.

Historically a lot of the times that soldiers (around the world) have been brought in to assist policing efforts it has resulted in unnecessary conflict...

Certainly in the North it was a very negative thing (granted there was a different dynamic) but even amongst the protestant population the army didn't help as much as it caused agitation and hindered policing.

Im not knocking the Army (who i know are very disciplined) but you would have a bunch of young testosterone charged soldiers who are trained to kill (training - screaming "What makes the grass grow? Blood! Bright Red Blood!") you want them to assist Gardai in policing a high crime area?
Do you realise the ramifications of what could happen in the multiple scenarios the Gardai deal with out on the streets?

Having a solider beside me at a checkpoint actually hinders my policing effort.

Let the soldiers - solider
Let the police - police

That Judge should be pushing the Ministers for more Gardai...

Our army is far from the gun tooting trained killers you make them out to be.
I think you would be surprised how effective they would be

bravestar · 01-02-2014 9:48am

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Our army is far from the gun tooting trained killers you make them out to be.
I think you would be surprised how effective they would be

What training do the army have that would make them effective police?

SNAKEDOC · 01-02-2014 10:46am

bravestar wrote: »

What training do the army have that would make them effective police?

Well for one they dont go round singing about blood making the grass grow.
Your comments are a bit shortsighted. They ar trained for riot situations. Trained in hand to hand combat or as the gardai call it self defence. They are trained in situation management. Trianed how to be assertive. Trained to work in a team environment.
Yes the army are trained with weapons that kill people but whether you like it or not the army in this country has a mandate to aid the police if the government see fit. I dont see why everyone is contradicting the truth. I for one have never stated that the army should be deployed on our streets only that if need be they have the capability and the training to do so as is in their mandate from the government.

bravestar · 01-02-2014 1:08pm

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Well for one they dont go round singing about blood making the grass grow.
Your comments are a bit shortsighted. They ar trained for riot situations. Trained in hand to hand combat or as the gardai call it self defence. They are trained in situation management. Trianed how to be assertive. Trained to work in a team environment.
Yes the army are trained with weapons that kill people but whether you like it or not the army in this country has a mandate to aid the police if the government see fit. I dont see why everyone is contradicting the truth. I for one have never stated that the army should be deployed on our streets only that if need be they have the capability and the training to do so as is in their mandate from the government.

Firstly, I never said anything about blood making grass grow. Go check your facts before you embarrass yourself again.

Secondly, what you see as necessary skills that the army and Gardai have, make up about 2% of what policing is about. Why don't you go and educate yourself about policing in Ireland, then come back with an informed opinion and have a proper discussion on the subject.

You can spout ATCP all you want, but that is not what it was designed for.

It has been said earlier in the thread, let the soldiers soldier, let the police police.

SNAKEDOC · 01-02-2014 1:33pm

I was quoting someone else when i said about the blood grass thing. As you said informed opinion well i have an informed opinion. I have researched and stated only facts which you seem to be blind to. I have said now for the third time, my opinion is that the army should not be put on the streets but in the a worst case senario they have the ability to be called upon. Can you just read my post and see im not argueing with you im only stating FACTS about our army forces. I think youd fight with your big toe:)
As for my opinion being informed ive worked with both the army and gardai. I served for a Number of years as a reserve and was a garda for a number of years too so my opinion is well informed. Just to clarify i would probably be against army units being put on the streets unless there was major civil unrest.

Shadow Walker · 01-02-2014 1:33pm

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Trained in hand to hand combat or as the gardai call it self defence.

There is a world of difference between "hand to hand combat" and "self defence"

The objective of hand to hand combat is to disable(preferably permanently) the other guy whereas Gardai learn to restrain the other person

Many yeArs ago I spoke to the training instructor in Templemore who said the Garda self defence was a modified and toned down version of ju jitsu. It involved arm and hand locks whereby a struggling assailant would be working against his wrist, arm and shoulder joints (mainly) if he continued to struggle

To disable someone usually involves a permanent injury or death , exactly what Gardai are trained to avoid

Locust · 03-02-2014 3:58am

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

I was quoting someone else when i said about the blood grass thing.

Are you DF? Ever gone through any kind of military training?

I know a lot of army guys and i know - of course - they are trained to be 'assertive' and 'team guys' and assist Gardai in a role ... That is wonderful they sit through a few power points on the use of force. The Irish Army are professional and disciplined... I acknowledge they aren't gun tottling maniacs thats great from the outset. But on the flip coin you must realise they are also trained not to mess around and that means kill & train for as extreme as you could imagine. It differs on the street as history has shown.

Have you experienced bayonet training?
What exactly do you think they train you? Or imagine a young solider in training is screamed at to affix bayonets & charge the enemy? What advice is he given? What attitude is he told to adopt?
Just a training course of course... a small part of an overall life of a soldier. But this all goes into the making of a group of trained and conditioned soldiers who arent out to given free hugs and smiles when deployed, which a judge suggests assist the Gardai in policing Tallaght....? right, wonderful, maybe take a drive through Jobstown or Rossfield late on the weekend and ask for directions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Op1zjd7KKE

The army train for peacekeeping roles etc... But that also encompasses killing other human beings if necessary if that equals an end to the means of the mission / or use of force is justified.

We are a Celtic/Barbarian/wild at heart nation - we don't respond well (at the outset) to orders or being told what to do! Many areas rampant with drugs alcohol and serious crime.

The army are young fit motivated guys with battle rifles, conditioned to complete an 'objective'. Yes they are there to assist the police in a role (tick the box) - but when they are called in - Do you realise you (the general public) and many other boys won't like it? We are talking about borderline marshall law/rule... Its something that will upset the system. Its something that may not be all that ethical... Its something that will cause friction and upset and ultimately conflict and bloodshed.
Its a step back in time and not forward (progressively speaking).
The answer is education - more community engagement and more Gardai and more funding and equipping - not the Army.

SNAKEDOC · 03-02-2014 10:18pm

Locust wrote: »

Are you DF? Ever gone through any kind of military training?

I know a lot of army guys and i know - of course - they are trained to be 'assertive' and 'team guys' and assist Gardai in a role ... That is wonderful they sit through a few power points on the use of force. The Irish Army are professional and disciplined... I acknowledge they aren't gun tottling maniacs thats great from the outset. But on the flip coin you must realise they are also trained not to mess around and that means kill & train for as extreme as you could imagine. It differs on the street as history has shown.

Have you experienced bayonet training?
What exactly do you think they train you? Or imagine a young solider in training is screamed at to affix bayonets & charge the enemy? What advice is he given? What attitude is he told to adopt?
Just a training course of course... a small part of an overall life of a soldier. But this all goes into the making of a group of trained and conditioned soldiers who arent out to given free hugs and smiles when deployed, which a judge suggests assist the Gardai in policing Tallaght....? right, wonderful, maybe take a drive through Jobstown or Rossfield late on the weekend and ask for directions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Op1zjd7KKE

The army train for peacekeeping roles etc... But that also encompasses killing other human beings if necessary if that equals an end to the means of the mission / or use of force is justified.

We are a Celtic/Barbarian/wild at heart nation - we don't respond well (at the outset) to orders or being told what to do! Many areas rampant with drugs alcohol and serious crime.

The army are young fit motivated guys with battle rifles, conditioned to complete an 'objective'. Yes they are there to assist the police in a role (tick the box) - but when they are called in - Do you realise you (the general public) and many other boys won't like it? We are talking about borderline marshall law/rule... Its something that will upset the system. Its something that may not be all that ethical... Its something that will cause friction and upset and ultimately conflict and bloodshed.
Its a step back in time and not forward (progressively speaking).
The answer is education - more community engagement and more Gardai and more funding and equipping - not the Army.

Ok. Ive never had bayonet training and yes the army have that training. When was it ever used? Has the army encountered any hostile encursions that they had to repell with their bayonets and a grende pin in their teeth. Yes they are soldiers but they are also human beings with families and kids. They are not a bunch of vietnam vets sitting around smoking cigarettes with a thousand yard stare. And as for the thing about the hugs and smiles do gardai go round giving hugs yea they might smile but as for a hug dont think so.
When the army go abroad on peace keeping missions they are constantly smiling so as the natives accept them as yes you guessed it( a policing force)
I know that the army is at the end of the day a force of men and women trained to kill but their job goes much farther than pulling a trigger.
If your opinion was the real senario the army would not be out in times of emergency giving aid or bringing water to communities affected by floods or bad weather.
Why is my statement that the army is there to aid the gardai so off putting its the truth.
As for driving through rossfield or whereever else i work in tallaght where the judge suggested putting the army. I used to work/live in coolock and i have worked in the north inner city as well as lived there i know what the streets are like.
You stated that putting the army on the streets in a policing role amounts to marshal law well thats probably the only thing i agree with you on.
It is marshal law when public society deteriates to a point where the police force is unable to cope and the army is called upon. You also said it would upset the system but do you not realise to have the army on the streets the system would be already quite upset in the first place hence the army being deployed to restore law and order. Only the president can inact this measure from a request from government. I think if a request was made like that things would be pretty messed up dont you. It has never happened in this country but again for the last time i have only ever said that it could happen not that it should.
If things got so bad on the strets of our country where people were afraid to leave their homes(folks we're already there in some places) i would welcome the Army as a law abiding citizen. Maybe then elderly people wouldnt be getting attacked in their homes or people being murdered in broad daylight.

Zambia · 04-02-2014 12:08am

Once all the hand to hand combat is over are the army going to take on the process of charging , bailing, brief of evidence , court appearances , trials giving evidence and all the other things due process involves?

SNAKEDOC · 04-02-2014 12:26am

Zambia wrote: »

Once all the hand to hand combat is over are the army going to take on the process of charging , bailing, brief of evidence , court appearances , trials giving evidence and all the other things due process involves?

In that case will the gardai start charging with bayonets. The arguement can be endless but to stress the point. Short of world ending army is used to restore order. ORDER RESTORED MEN BACK TO THE BARRACKS. Then all is well again. Can you not just see that in the real world in some countries this has happened and our army has that capability and is trained for it.
Oh yea and in a state emergency when the army is needed on the streets do you really think due process will be first on peoples minds. I would imagine not. The army would be there to RESTORE due process then get back to normal operations.

bravestar · 04-02-2014 12:40am

Oh man... this has come a long long way from Tallaght. If we found ourselves in a without rule of law situation, where mad max style bandits terrorised the suburbs, then yes, Im sure the army would be rolled out and rightly so.

But thats not what this thread is about and were really getting into some Walter Mitty territory. The Army have no place trying to be police. The police have no place trying to be the Army and George Clooney had no place trying to be Batman. :rolleyes:

SNAKEDOC · 04-02-2014 12:44am

bravestar wrote: »

Oh man... this has come a long long way from Tallaght. If we found ourselves in a without rule of law situation, where mad max style bandits terrorised the suburbs, then yes, Im sure the army would be rolled out and rightly so.

But thats not what this thread is about and were really getting into some Walter Mitty territory. The Army have no place trying to be police. The police have no place trying to be the Army and George Clooney had no place trying to be Batman. :rolleyes:

Yea ben afleck will be much better.

But back to the civil defence, for some issues i think having volinteers on the ground might help but where criminal matters are no they are not trained. Emergency issues like sever weather and food or fuel shortages but not crime fighting let them stick to their job.

bravestar · 04-02-2014 1:35am

SNAKEDOC wrote: »

Yea ben afleck will be much better.

But back to the civil defence, for some issues i think having volinteers on the ground might help but where criminal matters are no they are not trained. Emergency issues like sever weather and food or fuel shortages but not crime fighting let them stick to their job.

Couldn't agree more

SNAKEDOC · 04-02-2014 1:49am

bravestar wrote: »

Couldn't agree more

EVEN ABOUT BEN AFLECK

Leo Demidov · 08-02-2014 12:25am

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/army-aid-required-at-shannon-324-times-257989.html

bravestar · 08-02-2014 12:58pm

wexfjord wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/army-aid-required-at-shannon-324-times-257989.html

I fail to see the relevance of this. The army assisting at a static post is hardly policing... As I have said before, there are a lot of posts the army should do and that would free up more actual members to police the streets.

Leo Demidov · 08-02-2014 2:13pm

bravestar wrote: »

I fail to see the relevance of this. The army assisting at a static post is hardly policing... As I have said before, there are a lot of posts the army should do and that would free up more actual members to police the streets.

I'm quite sure its no less relevant than the other off topic posts. Back on topic, i would like to state that in my opinion Civil Defence have no role in policing, the army on the other hand may in certain situations have a role in assisting gardai. Tallaght would not be one of those situations.

hobochris · 16-02-2014 6:36pm

I assume this judge means that CD would provide their welfare bus to help the Gardai stay refreshed during bigger incidents.

Anything else would just serve to highlight a shocking level of ignorance and un-education within our judiciary.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 21-02-2014 2:38am

Zambia wrote: »

Once all the hand to hand combat is over are the army going to take on the process of charging , bailing, brief of evidence , court appearances , trials giving evidence and all the other things due process involves?

No, we can do nothing more than a citizens arrest.

Some mad, lunatic posts in this thread re the DF and AGS from people who obviously have no idea about the job of either.

Trained to kill etc, lol.. We're no more allowed to kill anyone than any other man or woman on the street, be they DF, AGS or ordinary members of the public.. In certain circumstances we can use varying levels of force from weight of numbers (in controlling an individual/group of individuals) to firing ball ammunition as a warning to containing shots to lethal force ~ just the same as an armed guard.

Putting soldiers on the streets (and ATCP) for obvious reasons I can not comment on this, and I won't be drawn to comment either, but some people are very, very naive to think we're not there 24/7... Have you even been on an EOD call out for example.

Soldiers patrolling the streets of Dublin, Cork, Limerick etc ain't ever going to happen outside of a total breakdown in law and order.

But the men and women of our DF are very well trained, willing and motivated to answer the call whatever the circumstances may be to assist as an aid to the ATCP & ATCA's.

Old diesel · 21-02-2014 1:10pm

This suggestion by the Judge reminds of that other awesome idea (im been sarcastic) that some genius of a councillor somewhere in Co Kildare came up with.

Said ingenious idea involved St John Ambulance/Order of Malta type organisation dealing with people who get injured while drunk in his particular town in Co Kildare.

Obviously - the PROPER solution to that councillors issue in Co Kildare would be more HSE Paramedics/Advanced Paramedics on the road.

Just as the solution to the issue the judge ALLEGES is happening in Tallagh - isn't civil defence - its properly resourcing the men and women of An Garda Siochana - and having more of them trained up in Templemore and on the streets.

Unfortunately the general theme we have here - is that in Ireland there seems to be a complete allergy to resourcing things correctly - so we are short Gardaí - and we are short Ambulance resources.

There also seems to be a culture in Ireland of the "volunteer" - hence the civil defence idea rather than the Judge calling for more Gardaí.

Anyway apologies of that came across as a rant or poorly thought out

Civil Defence to assist Gardaí

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