Can Astronomy Ireland really be considered an 'Astronomy club' anymore?

bobbbb · 25-04-2009 10:17pm

My brother worked for AI them as part of the summer jobs scheme several years ago. They made telescopes in Moores house for him to sell.
They were only allowed to work a certain amount of time but needed the money as they were "starving students". After that Moore offered them less than half of minimum wage to continue on. Some of them did.

Thargor · 26-04-2009 10:08pm

bobbbb wrote: »

My brother worked for AI them as part of the summer jobs scheme several years ago. They made telescopes in Moores house for him to sell.
They were only allowed to work a certain amount of time but needed the money as they were "starving students". After that Moore offered them less than half of minimum wage to continue on. Some of them did.

Haha, thats the best story about him yet, an astronomy sweatshop

Big Dee · 30-04-2009 12:21pm

Very interesting reading! However a couple of things on some of the postings to date. The AI events (apart from the lectures and Star-b-q) are free. I attended some of their events in Co Louth and never have been asked for money. Also everyone is encouraged to bring along a scope (any shape size or make) and I've seen the volunteers there helping people set up and use the Lidl (meade) scopes. That's just my own experience (it may be different elsewhere) but I have found the volunteers very enthusiastic and helpful. So I think it is unfair to paint everyone in AI with the one brush.

In relation to the media coverage, it's not always the media that contact Mr Moore (not Patrick!), even though I note from the magizine "our very own Sir Patrick Moore" - is he for sale in the shop?? Being serious again, I have a friend in the media and every opertunity Mr Moore is in contact with them looking for air time. So we cannot fault him for being pro active.

Any news from the "most important event of the century" meeting last Saturday - was expecting to see it on the RTE news at 6, but they must have missed it too.

PS Instead of saying that the prices in their shop are high, why not post up some example comparisons - that way would show exactly how expensive they really are.

Slow Motion · 30-04-2009 12:57pm

Jaysus lads! I have always had an interest in astronomy and the OH recently bought me a telescope for my birthday (Little does she know how many nights she will be going to bed on her own! "Be there in a minute love"

) And had fully intended joining this organisation because as been stated before, I simply wasn't aware of any alternatives and assumed I would be joining a much different organisation than the opinions and experiences here lead me to believe. Think I'll save my money for something else, thanks guys!

Orion · 30-04-2009 2:36pm

Big Dee wrote: »

Very interesting reading! However a couple of things on some of the postings to date. The AI events (apart from the lectures and Star-b-q) are free. I attended some of their events in Co Louth and never have been asked for money. Also everyone is encouraged to bring along a scope (any shape size or make) and I've seen the volunteers there helping people set up and use the Lidl (meade) scopes. That's just my own experience (it may be different elsewhere) but I have found the volunteers very enthusiastic and helpful. So I think it is unfair to paint everyone in AI with the one brush.

In fairness nobody is criticising the volunteers. They are just that - volunteers. And they would be very helpful. The criticism is aimed at Mr. Moore for pretending to run a club when it's not.

Big Dee wrote: »

In relation to the media coverage, it's not always the media that contact Mr Moore (not Patrick!), even though I note from the magizine "our very own Sir Patrick Moore" - is he for sale in the shop?? Being serious again, I have a friend in the media and every opertunity Mr Moore is in contact with them looking for air time. So we cannot fault him for being pro active.

If you were running a business wouldn't you chase every opportunity for free advertising? It's a business decision not an altruistic one.

Big Dee wrote: »

PS Instead of saying that the prices in their shop are high, why not post up some example comparisons - that way would show exactly how expensive they really are.

There's plenty of examples online. He pretty much has a monopoly in Ireland (at least for Celestron) but if you look up North (Andy McCrea) or across the water you will find the same or equivalent scopes much cheaper - even including delivery. And this is not a jump on the rip-off Ireland bandwagon - it's been like that for years. I bought my scope about 6 years ago and saved about €500 on an 8" reflector by buying from Andy.

Seanie M · 30-04-2009 4:12pm

Ref: Louth (and other locations) volunteers - 2 other amateur clubs in Ireland that currently exist were themselves nodes of Astronomy Ireland before. I'm going back in time with the most recent one of about 2003/4 here. On special nights of interest, nodes around the country would set up and entice the public to their event. Then, while doing so were encouraged to sell the latest issues of A&S magazine, collect money from other sales, and send it all back to David Moore. The locals were just doing their bit for the love of the hobby, but were doing the work and sending the money back to Artane in Dublin.

The 2 clubs I talk about (I WON'T mention their acronyms publicly just in case, so don't ask) decided, one time, each a different time, to keep the money instead of sending it back, and used it to set up their own local/regional club. They figured "Why the hell do we do the work, but he gets the money? There's no fun in that!" The rest is history. One of the clubs in question is still very successful today - in terms of annual events and membership numbers.

Much of Joe Public out there just want a club to show them more about how to get the most from their hobby. With the advent of the internet and I.T.-savy people, an online search will get them the local answer they desire, instead of going to what some perceive as the only, um, club in the country (A&S) due to the media chokehold of over a decade.

For what it's worth, there have been other people around the country used as Astronomical contacts through media channels in RTE and so on. I have been on RTE Radio 1, Newstalk, and Midlands 103 a number of times, and TV3 have been in touch with regards to our local club's events. Even Dave MacDonald and Dave Grennan (both Kildare and Dublin respectively) featured at the Young Scientists Exhibition and on RTE Radio 1 before as well as after their asteroid discoveries. The media is copping on to the wealth of different Amateur Astronomers in Ireland, and that interest is growing all the time.

Don't forget, rumour has it that David Moore already had his foot in the door at RTE when Astronomy Ireland formed in 1992 as a result of a previous job, so in a way it was the luck of the draw at the time - the rest of us got in on a mixture hard work and good luck!

On a side note, I advocate highly the idea of 'shopping around', especially for Astronomy gear, and even more especially in the €uro zone. I have bought extensively through North Down Telescopes (Andy McCrea), Telescope House, and privately through Astromart, no hiccups or bad stories so far. You'll save lots of dough.

Seanie.
Again, Tullamore Astronomical Society Secretary,
Midlands Astronomy Club Secretary,
Irish Federation of Astronomy Societies (IFAS) Secretary,
STILL Poor as a pauper.

coylemj · 03-05-2009 12:19am

Astronomy Ireland exists for no other reason than to provide an income for David Moore, any pretence that it is anything else is a sham.

ynotdu · 07-05-2009 7:18pm

Big Dee wrote: »

Very interesting reading! However a couple of things on some of the postings to date. The AI events (apart from the lectures and Star-b-q) are free. I attended some of their events in Co Louth and never have been asked for money. Also everyone is encouraged to bring along a scope (any shape size or make) and I've seen the volunteers there helping people set up and use the Lidl (meade) scopes. That's just my own experience (it may be different elsewhere) but I have found the volunteers very enthusiastic and helpful. So I think it is unfair to paint everyone in AI with the one brush.

In relation to the media coverage, it's not always the media that contact Mr Moore (not Patrick!), even though I note from the magizine "our very own Sir Patrick Moore" - is he for sale in the shop?? Being serious again, I have a friend in the media and every opertunity Mr Moore is in contact with them looking for air time. So we cannot fault him for being pro active.

Any news from the "most important event of the century" meeting last Saturday - was expecting to see it on the RTE news at 6, but they must have missed it too.

PS Instead of saying that the prices in their shop are high, why not post up some example comparisons - that way would show exactly how expensive they really are.

Big D I went to an event organised by Ai in the phoenix park,They charged a euro for a 30 second look through their telescope x 2,as there was two planets highly visable.

Look Moore has done a lot more harm than good in promoting Astronomy to people with a fledgling interest in the hobby,kids going to an event that live in areas with so much street lighting they miss nearly every event.
Ai would not let them even see the cosmo,s for free.
It would not surprise Me if Moore thinks He invented it!

Linguo · 12-05-2009 5:13pm

We need to promote other clubs more heavily and get everyone going to them!

What events do other clubs run?

Iridium · 12-05-2009 9:45pm

Galway, Midlands and Shannonside Astronomy Clubs each run a major annual star party. I'm not sure if any of those guys are on here though.

Shannonside are up next - theirs is in The Burren, Co. Clare in September I believe. In fact, here's a link:

http://www.shannonsideastronomyclub.com/sac_burren_starparty.htm

Seanie M · 12-05-2009 11:54pm

Iridium wrote: »

Galway, Midlands and Shannonside Astronomy Clubs each run a major annual star party. I'm not sure if any of those guys are on here though.

www.midlandsastronomy.com for details of our recent COSMOS 2009 Star Party...

Seanie.

Iridium · 13-05-2009 9:24pm

Ah yes, Cosmos was particularly excellent this year. Some great talks (even if I am being a little bit biased

), and a brilliant, informal, relaxed and friendly atmosphere - even for relative novices like me.

Have you posted any photos yet Seanie, or am I just not looking hard enough?

Seanie M · 13-05-2009 11:50pm

Iridium wrote: »

Ah yes, Cosmos was particularly excellent this year. Some great talks (even if I am being a little bit biased ), and a brilliant, informal, relaxed and friendly atmosphere - even for relative novices like me.

Have you posted any photos yet Seanie, or am I just not looking hard enough?

No, iridium, I haven't posted any actually! I am still waiting on some to come from other visitors so I can create one large album. I'll keep you posted!

Seanie.

squonk · 14-05-2009 8:55am

I'm interested in getting a club going in North County Dublin. I don't have transport but would like to try and get something going near me for even observing sessions at the start and we could see where it goes after that. If anyone is interested, mail me at nmcarroll@gmail.com.. thanks!

squonk · 14-05-2009 9:02am

ynotdu wrote: »

Big D I went to an event organised by Ai in the phoenix park,They charged a euro for a 30 second look through their telescope x 2,as there was two planets highly visable.

That is one of the main things that has always hacked me off about AI. Charging €1 just for a 30sec look through a telescope is just daylight robbery. If I didn that I'd have paid for my gear in no time. That isn't the point though. Telescopes are expensive enough for sure but I'm sure like nearly everyone else here, I bought what I could afford and am delighted that I have a scope sitting there for whenever I need it. If someone is out for a walk and wants a look through it just out of curiosity to see what all the fuss is about, great stuff! If it even gets them to notice space shuttle launches or Venus after that or something that they never thought about before, even better. If it's not for them, it's not for them but at least they know! I'd feel like a total tosser charging for that. €1 per 30sec is just sad IMHO.

Linguo · 14-05-2009 3:38pm

What if we just set up our scopes the other end of the carpark for free?:D

100% recycled · 14-05-2009 5:23pm

squonk wrote: »

That is one of the main things that has always hacked me off about AI. Charging €1 just for a 30sec look through a telescope is just daylight robbery... I'd feel like a total tosser charging for that. €1 per 30sec is just sad IMHO.

I went to one of these events recently with my OH. It's actually €2 a look now.

Was told it was a "donation" to the club :rolleyes: I told the girl I heard on the radio that it was an event free to the public, she looked really confused and said "oh no, it is free, you just have to pay a donation if you want to look into the telescope." Mr Moore then jumped in with, "Now, would you like to buy a magazine to support the club? They're only 4 euro?" No, no I would not!

It's a real shame, all he is doing is alienating people and driving them away from the hobby with his constant sell sell sell garbage!

Linguo wrote: »

What if we just set up our scopes the other end of the carpark for free?:D

LOL, great idea!! Or set up a Boards.ie Astronomy Club and have free events on the same nights as their ones!! :pac:

Slow Motion · 15-05-2009 9:43am

100% recycled wrote: »

Or set up a Boards.ie Astronomy Club and have free events on the same nights as their ones!! :pac:

That's a great idea!

ynotdu · 15-05-2009 10:54pm

Slow Motion wrote: »

That's a great idea!

Yeah we can email mr MORE to the effect Ya can shove yar *contributions* up URANUS.

cheap joke(old&corny as well)

but I at least provided it for free:pac:

Linguo · 08-06-2009 11:17am

I wish the general public understood what it was really was like! And the stuff I know from there is a BILLION times worse than what people actually know, oh the stories!!

Thargor · 08-06-2009 12:15pm

There was a big long post from someone in here last night about being hassled on the phone by AI but he must have deleted it.

Linguo · 08-06-2009 12:54pm

Yeah but I gotta be honest, the person he was talking about was me when I worked there!!! I was forced to call other clubs and ask!I didn't hassle the man I had set questions I was made ask! Staff dont have many choices and he never tells you that other clubs dont want to talk to you!Acted like they were friendly with each other!! So for most staff it's very hard work, hence me getting the hell out of there when I figured out the type of place it was!

Slow Motion · 08-06-2009 12:57pm

Can I ask why that post was deleted?

Edit: Don't want to start a thread in feedback, I am just curious as I didn't notice anything wrong with it!

Frank Ryan Jr · 08-06-2009 6:24pm

I wrote the deleted post but let me clear up something.
I never said I was 'hassled'.
I said I was 'cold called'.

The fact is I am the secretary of Shannonside Astronomy Club
and I even though I have my own personal opinions about Mr. Moore
and his businesses, I thought it would be ill conceived of me to voice them here because it would be impossible for readers to make the distinction between my opinions as opposed to the clubs position on the matter.
Maybe sometime in the future if and when I am no longer a committee member in SAC I will but for now it think it's best for me & my club to just make no comment.
As for SAC's position on the matter it is that we have no position on the matter.
What Mr. Moore does does not effect us in the slightest.

As for the girl that called me,
I really felt sorry for her that she had to ring me like that that day.
It was embarrassing. I felt like I was being 'cold called' from an insurance company.

In the end, I actually did inform the club of the phone call and of the courses.
Honestly, the reaction from them was one of amusement.
None of our membership signed up for them.
I'm sure you can understand why.

Calibos · 08-06-2009 8:26pm

Frank Ryan Jr wrote: »

........What Mr. Moore does does not effect us in the slightest.

Surely it affects us in that each club would have a lot more paying members and less people would be scared off astronomy if they didn't think the only option for a decent apeture telescope was a multi thousand pound Celestron SCT or if they didn't think that the only way to find out about ISS passes was a 1 euro per text, text service. I'd say so many people decide to take up astronomy, think AI and the gear they sell and the services they offer are the only ones available and then come to the conclusion that this Astronomy lark is way too expensive a hobby for them. (Obviously it can be expensive but only when you get so far into it that you want uber apeture and AP gear.) Every outreach event I get asked how much my Chinese 12" Dob cost. I tell them the cost includng all my mods and still people are amazed at how cheap my 'Huge' scope is. They are invariably even more flaberghasted when I tell them what the base scope cost without all my add-ons. They are blown away when I tell them they can get my scope without the DSC computer for a few hundred less. No one will tell me this isn't because they got the impression 12" scopes were 4 or 5 grand from the AI shop.

BTW, is that true about charging money to look through the scopes at public events!!! I knew AI did things differently, lets put it that way...but chargeing people to look through a scope at a free outreach event!!! OMG!!

ON a sidenote. AI got my email address when I sent off a Fireball report. Ever since I have been getting promotional emails from them. The unsubscribe links don't work (Suprise, Suprise

). So I set up a mail rule in outlook express to delete these emails straight away when they arrive.....except they were still coming!! I noticed they were sending via a different amil address too, so I set up another mail rule to delete emails coming from this address too.....except they are still coming!! How many email addresses does AI bulk send from!!!

Linguo · 09-06-2009 8:52am

The biggest problem is that the club isn't willing to change at all for the better, myself and other staff when we worked there came up with great ideas but they weren't taken seriously because people in there want their own way or no way!

As for the 'cold call' I simply had no choice at the time and didn't understand why people were odd on the phone to me when I had to call, all of which I understand now. But when staff are standing over you and telling you what to say you don't have much choice. It all contributed to me leaving after a short time there!

Slow Motion · 09-06-2009 9:31am

Jaysus! This thread makes for some quite shocking reading, who knew astronomy was such a hotbed of deciept and intrigue? There is a soap in this!;)

Frank Ryan Jr · 12-06-2009 12:30am

Calibos wrote: »

Surely it affects us in that each club would have a lot more paying members

Hmm....Maybe so in Dublin or in other areas where he has set up other branches of his business with 'volunteers' or whatever, I'm not sure...
SAC covers Clare, Tipperary and Limerick and apart form the odd course he runs down here very few years AI may as well be in New York or on the Moon for that matter for all the effect it has on us as a club.
In fact some new members that joined SAC last month had actually paid for the AI course and when it was over wanted to go further and join a local active club so obviously that is going to be us.
Thats just geography and sense.
I'm sure there are some in our area that pay a subscription to AI and get the monthly mag and are on the email list and that's fine for them,
but if people in our area that want to pay 40 bucks and be part of an actual local club that have meetings / workshops / regular observing sessions /
club equipment to use 12'' dob / 10'' sct , various other scopes / a website / messageboards / free text alert system / starparty / public observing sessions (all free) / the list go's on - then they have that choice too.

TJJP · 12-06-2009 12:38am

dmcdona wrote: »

The whole AI "subject" has been discussed extensively over the years. The sentiments expressed here are held by many people. But its a free country and AI/A&S Ltd are entitled to do whatever they want within the law.

Iridium wrote: »

That is correct. The actual live membership when I used to volunteer was something like 2,500 yet they were claiming over 9,000 members at the time.

Calibos wrote: »

I so regret submitting my fireball report to AI now. Ever since I have been innundated with AI spam

+1

The post fireball report e-mail scam is well dodgy. I didn't sign up for spam but I'm getting plenty of it now. Not convinced that e-mail harvesting is within the law but it sure boosts 'member' numbers.

Linguo · 12-06-2009 9:16am

I got given out to big time by both the 'CEO' and 'Chairman' when I was there for unsubscribing people from the list when they asked. I was meant to tell him first and then he would send a special email trying to get you to re-consider....

Can Astronomy Ireland really be considered an 'Astronomy club' anymore?

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