Masters of Education(Leadership)..... Help!!!

Martygall89 · 03-06-2015 7:39am #1

I have applied to do a Masters of Education (leadership) in both Trinity College and UCD. Hopefully I will get one of them. I am looking for any information from past teachers that have done these courses about the workload etc and did it help them get A posts or VP or even Principal jobs. I have a young family and I really am concerned about the workload and would I be able to manage it during the school year.There is also a big difference in fees between each course and I am not sure about which one would be the best. Another issue that I am concerned is it financially worthwhile to do these courses? I have been talking to my fellow peers in last few month about it and a lot of them have said that I’m crazy to even consider a doing a masters. However in the future I do want to become a vice-principal or principal and I believe that these courses are the best way to achieving my goal. However am I wrong to think this?? Any information would really be appreciated. Thanks:)

evolving_doors · 03-06-2015 9:24am

Martygall89 wrote: »

I have applied to do a Masters of Education (leadership) in both Trinity College and UCD. Hopefully I will get one of them. I am looking for any information from past teachers that have done these courses about the workload etc and did it help them get A posts or VP or even Principal jobs. I have a young family and I really am concerned about the workload and would I be able to manage it during the school year.There is also a big difference in fees between each course and I am not sure about which one would be the best. Another issue that I am concerned is it financially worthwhile to do these courses? I have been talking to my fellow peers in last few month about it and a lot of them have said that I’m crazy to even consider a doing a masters. However in the future I do want to become a vice-principal or principal and I believe that these courses are the best way to achieving my goal. However am I wrong to think this?? Any information would really be appreciated. Thanks:)

I've said it on another thread but I think a Masters is par for the course if you want to inform your practise further, not so much in terms f subject knowledge, but on a broader perspective (policy, eduction research etc). In saying that though I know a few of the senior teachers who have advanced without it, but I think they were very much the old-guard.

My advice; it's like getting a tooth out, just get it over and done with ASAP. I haven't done that Masters but from what I know the MEd. for Leadership is generally the standard one with a view to becoming a Principal or Deputy (or Assistant Principal posts etc).
You can do it with young kids but it'll involve a lot of late nights (with partner willing to carry the can so maybe not so viable if they have evening work either!) and trying to keep your school stuff ticking over.

tosh999 · 03-06-2015 9:54pm

You really need a Masters at this stage if you aspire to a Deputy Principal / Principal position. You will manage the Masters, the more pertinent question is will you manage a Senior Management position. The position of DP/P is extremely demanding especially with a young family. The decimation of middle management positions/national initiatives and a demoralised teaching profession has made these positions almost unbearable in many schools.

man_no_plan · 11-06-2015 10:48pm

tosh999 wrote: »

You really need a Masters at this stage if you aspire to a Deputy Principal / Principal position. You will manage the Masters, the more pertinent question is will you manage a Senior Management position. The position of DP/P is extremely demanding especially with a young family. The decimation of middle management positions/national initiatives and a demoralised teaching profession has made these positions almost unbearable in many schools.

You could look at the toraiocht programme. It's level 9 and is well regarded. I don't think a masters is necessary but some kind of a postgrad is.

Tosh 999 are you in a senior management position? I'm just wondering is it from experience that you have this opinion?

pandoraj09 · 14-06-2015 12:33pm

You don't need a masters to get a DP or P job. I know plenty of people who got there without anything other than a degree/dip. I know someone with a Doctorate and a Masters who has gone for interview numerous times with no success. The people who got the jobs were young, one only teaching 5 years!! Its put me right off going for these jobs. They seem to want a particular type of
person, rather than a particular qualification. With small children, you will be putting yourself under massive pressure doing something that might not help you at all...With all these Croke park hours etc it's difficult enough to do the regular teaching day.....Anyway, just my feedback, but it is based on knowing quite a few who got to the top without any leadership courses...

solerina · 14-06-2015 8:48pm

pandoraj09 wrote: »

You don't need a masters to get a DP or P job. I know plenty of people who got there without anything other than a degree/dip. I know someone with a Doctorate and a Masters who has gone for interview numerous times with no success. The people who got the jobs were young, one only teaching 5 years!! Its put me right off going for these jobs. They seem to want a particular type of
person, rather than a particular qualification. With small children, you will be putting yourself under massive pressure doing something that might not help you at all...With all these Croke park hours etc it's difficult enough to do the regular teaching day.....Anyway, just my feedback, but it is based on knowing quite a few who got to the top without any leadership courses...

Totally agree, I too know quite a few people who have been appointed DP or P in recent years who have no qualification beyond their degree and H.Dip.

clunked · 15-06-2015 11:54am

solerina wrote: »

Totally agree, I too know quite a few people who have been appointed DP or P in recent years who have no qualification beyond their degree and H.Dip.

That is indeed very true, a slip of paper means very little in terms of the cut and thrust of managing a school in this day and age. However I am aware of different positions where some extremely capable people who would make superb principals/deputy principals were not shortlisted for jobs and the only difference between those who got interviews and those who didn't was an MA in education.

man_no_plan · 16-06-2015 3:06pm

If it's an essential or desirable criteria and is used for shortlisting you could be out before you're in at all.

In itself it won't make a better candidate out of someone. They say that you can hardly get anyone to go for a principals job, this hardly helps.

tosh999 · 25-06-2015 7:03pm

Perhaps I over emphasised the need to have a Masters but in my experience many successful applicants for P/DP positions have Master qualifications.

ethical · 25-06-2015 9:54pm

Some experienced people within education recruitment would suggest that Masters,etc are not the be all and end all of actually succeeding in getting a Principal/Deputy Principals post.As some posters have stated there is a tendency in very recent years to offer such posts to extremely young,unattached,non-post holder teachers whereas going back 30 years it was a case of somebody in their 50s with family reared ,etc who were taken on in the top posts.I have heard from some teachers that the lack of experience by some of the young recruits is compensated somewhat by the older ,experienced staff members giving them a great deal of assistance and making life 'easier' for them as they settle in to run the school for the next 25 years.Personally speaking teaching in Ireland is 'gone to hell'in that there is less and less tutoring of the child and more and more form filling/box ticking which really does very little in the way of guidance for the young people in our care.Of course qualifications for any post are superseded by 'being in the know' and having just a basic degree.Unfortunately this will not change anytime soon in Ireland.In the UK if you have the qualifications and the experience it does not matter what colour or religion or sexual persuasion one is,you get the job and you do not have to be connected to the recruiter.Of course the English system has its own paper shifting problems which leads to shorter careers and early burnout.I think the Irish system will 'pension off' teachers over 50 in the next few years and they will save quite a bit of money in doing so by 'yellow-packing' the system with the finest of new recruits but on a pittance of a salary which is not going to be any good for teacher or pupil.......but it will save money in the short term!

gaiscioch · 25-06-2015 10:54pm

pandoraj09 wrote: »

They seem to want a particular type of
person, rather than a particular qualification.

Very true. There is often a 'type': politicians. I've seen senior people who would have been ineffably superior in ensuring school discipline, overlooked for senior school roles simply because of politics. It's a travesty, and by that I'm really thinking of the other teachers and students who suffer because somebody was appointed for the wrong reasons (for instance, schools which become jungles because of some heart-in-the-right-place ideology which is painfully inappropriate to managing a school).

While it's bad enough in individual schools, the sycophancy that goes on in ETBs is chilling because you witness even more senior school figures jostling for position at the same time. If the ETB CEO decides technology is the way to go, you'll have to endure principals beating the sweet bejaysas out of each other to be the IT school of the VEC/ETB area - every pronouncement will be pushing all sorts of right-sounding ráiméis just to ingratiate the principal with the CEO.

On the other hand, it is a joy to work in a school which is managed well by people who have the right balance of traits and don't want to be best friends with the students and can keep their distance from teachers. The best I've seen was the "My door's always open" policy, knowing everybody was afraid to go near him (they went to the lovely DP instead). Fantastic learning experience especially watching how the principal delegates so if a student ever goes to the principal's office it's probably for expulsion. In many fundamental ways, I think a bigger school is easier to manage than a small school because it allows for more structure, ach sin scéal eile.

doc_17 · 26-06-2015 10:43am

If the OP wants to be a principal or deputy then my advice is do this course now. Not because you necessarily need to have that particular qualification, but because you'd get an idea what's it like trying to have a life outside of work. So bundle your work and your studies and let that be akin to the workload a busy principal would have. Then see how you would enjoy having very little time for other things.

Do you need the qualification? Nobody can really answer that question as it depends on what job you go for and who you go up against.

evolving_doors · 26-06-2015 10:59am

I think the general tenor has been "well folk have gotten promotions without a masters" and that's that. But that doesn't really sit well with me as an answer. It's like the old chestnut of "well I know someone who got a teaching job with just a degree"... I think the times are changing.

I think the corollary should also be explored.. would a masters hinder your chances of a promotion?

I can't see why it would.

Don't forget it's not a means to an end (i.e. promotion). I firmly believe that it does inform your practice and it gives you that little bit of a confidence boost in your critical thinking (i.e. not to accept the dept. handing down 'best practice' and we have to blindly accept without a little bit of our own research). I have seen it before though in inspections, the inspectors say x and a teacher who's done their research, serves them back and says "actually that research was inconclusive" or "dept guidelines say otherwise!!!".. cough softened.

Then again I'm biased. If I hadn't done one I'd be arguing that you don't need one. I know I'll always be an Indian and not a chief so I've not that much hankering for Promotion to management either. Doing a masters with young kids and a partner also studying part time whilst working = hell. If yer single with no family then maybe now is the time.

KurlyKale · 11-07-2015 2:53pm

Has anyone any thoughts on the PGDEL (Post Grad Diploma in Educational Leadership) - Maynooth University?? Am thinking of applying next year; have done one M.Ed and don't want to commit to another full Masters just yet, but hopefully could build on the Post Grad Diploma (Leadership) in the future, if I wanted/needed to. Any thoughts from people who have completed the PGDEL would be appreciated, especially in terms of workload, preparation for course, handy-hints etc....

Nadser · 11-07-2015 5:56pm

KurlyKale wrote: »

Has anyone any thoughts on the PGDEL (Post Grad Diploma in Educational Leadership) - Maynooth University?? Am thinking of applying next year; have done one M.Ed and don't want to commit to another full Masters just yet, but hopefully could build on the Post Grad Diploma (Leadership) in the future, if I wanted/needed to. Any thoughts from people who have completed the PGDEL would be appreciated, especially in terms of workload, preparation for course, handy-hints etc....

I did it in 2004, it was called Education Management then. I found it interesting and useful and pretty easy to be honest. From what I remember it covered policies, law, change management, financial stuff etc.

brady12345 · 25-07-2015 11:47pm

Hi Martygall..which course are you doing and did you manage to successfully compare them? I'm interested ad I also applied to those courses!

therunaround · 23-11-2015 9:34pm

Hi, I am currently researching leadership courses and have picked out the ones run in Maynooth as most suitable..
I was just wondering does anyone here know of any leadership courses that have January starts?

Masters of Education(Leadership)..... Help!!!

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