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Lifetime ban, or just a bit of a ban?

  • 29-04-2012 11:20pm
    #1
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭


    So it look like Dwain Chambers will be let compete in the Olympics again now if he qualifies. I was relatively content with him competing in the European stuff for the last while, but not sure I'm happy with him getting back into the Olympic team.

    I was very surprised though to see that Darren Campbell seemed to be accepting of him being allowed to take part again as until recently he was quite rightly the most vocal of those against him after he lost his medals because of Chambers. He seems to be basing that position on the fact that the US are letting people back in, so why shouldn't the UK.

    Hopefully the BOA just pick who they want to pick and ignore Chambers whatever times he gets if there are enough others with times.


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Comments

  • #2
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,109 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    I wonder will the policy of excluding Chambers from relay teams come back to bite UKA?


  • #3
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Look, I don't agree one bit with him being allowed to run in London. Bans should be for life. But this scapegoating of Dwain Chambers has to stop. There are numerous brazen Eastern European and Russian athletes back from drug bans and nobody is talking about them. Chambers has been completely open and honest about everything, and appears to genuinely regret what he has done. I believe he is running clean now, and while he shouldn't be running, he is at the very least a good example of a reformed drug cheat.

    Contrast this to others, who make rubbish excuses, continue to deny any wrongdoing even after their ban has ended, come back as brazen as ever. How come nobody talks about Stambolova? No way should that one be allowed anywhere near London!

    It just doesnt seem fair that the one who has shown remorse gets more abuse in the media than those c*nts who repeatedly drag our sport under the mud!


  • #4
    RoyMcC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,567 ✭✭✭RoyMcC


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    I wonder will the policy of excluding Chambers from relay teams come back to bite UKA?

    The GB relay teams are so flaky anyway I doubt inserting him into the squads will disrupt them.

    Generally I'm on the fence on this - there are solid arguments on both sides. In the end though I'll shout for anyone in a Brit vest.


  • #5
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    RoyMcC wrote: »
    The GB relay teams are so flaky anyway I doubt inserting him into the squads will disrupt them.

    Generally I'm on the fence on this - there are solid arguments on both sides. In the end though I'll shout for anyone in a Brit vest.

    Oh I certainly wont shout for him, but I feel he hasn't had an equal punishment to other drug cheats.


  • #6
    TheRoadRunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭TheRoadRunner


    04072511 wrote: »
    Oh I certainly wont shout for him, but I feel he hasn't had an equal punishment to other drug cheats.

    How crap, the moon must be aligned with Venus or something as I totally agree with 04072511, there's a first ;)

    The scapegoating of Chambers is way OTT. He cheated got caught, owned up and served his ban. Based on the current laws he is entitled to compete again. I'm not saying that is right but them the laws. I liked the BOA stance but realistically why should Chambers be banned when other cheaters are allowed to compete. Not only are there Eastern Europeans and Russians competing people like Justin Gatlin are back as well.

    I know this is a bit OT but there is rarely any mention of Rio Ferdinand's missed drug test and subsequent ban as well as other professional footballers who have been banned over the years (in fairness those drugs were more likely to be recreational).


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  • #7
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,055 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    Don't really have a problem with Chambers myself on this, he has just done what is needed to be treated fairly with the other cheats. Can't for the life of me understand why the case went against BOA though and how someone somewhere hasn't thought that it might be a good idea to bring everyone else into line with their position rather than making the BOA move to a less strict position.

    They still don't have to take him though as unlike the USA their policy has always allowed them to pick who they want rather than just who wins the trials.


  • #8
    water-man
    Registered Users Posts: 293 ✭✭water-man


    I'm with Roadrunner & 040.. on this.

    He is a cheat but the media seem to be really pick him out. There are also other cheats on the english team like the shot putter and 400m woman (can't remember their names now). And before anyone says she didn't fail a test missing 3 test is exactly the same as failing one in my opinion.

    WM


  • #9
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    TheRoadRunner wrote: »
    I know this is a bit OT but there is rarely any mention of Rio Ferdinand's missed drug test and subsequent ban as well as other professional footballers who have been banned over the years (in fairness those drugs were more likely to be recreational).

    Diego Maradona. The fact he failed a test for ephidrine (spelling?) at USA 94 is usually very much swept under the carpet, and his reputation is intact.

    He is a legend to be fair, but just goes to show how different sports treat such things.


  • #10
    TheRoadRunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭TheRoadRunner


    water-man wrote: »
    There are also other cheats on the english team like the shot putter and 400m woman (can't remember their names now). And before anyone says she didn't fail a test missing 3 test is exactly the same as failing one in my opinion.

    WM
    It's the British team by the way ;)

    Christine Ohuruogu, great example. Yep current Olympic 400 metre champion. The quote below is from wikipedia
    Christine Ohuruogu was suspended from competing in the 2006 European Athletics Championships. The reason for this was that she missed three out-of-competition drug tests, known as the "whereabouts" system, of the World Anti-Doping Code; one in October 2005 and two in June 2006.[10] According to IAAF and British Olympic Association rules, she received a one-year ban for missing these tests, which expired on 5 August 2007.[11]


    The British Olympic Association also imposed a lifetime ban excluding Ohuruogu from competing at future Olympic Games for Great Britain.[12] She appealed to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, but the original decision was upheld.[13] Ohuruogu submitted a further appeal, and stated that she would probably leave Britain and compete in the Olympics for another country if it was unsuccessful.[14][15] Her Olympic ban was finally overturned on 27 November 2007.


  • #11
    PainIsTemporary
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭PainIsTemporary


    TheRoadRunner wrote: »
    I know this is a bit OT but there is rarely any mention of Rio Ferdinand's missed drug test and subsequent ban as well as other professional footballers who have been banned over the years (in fairness those drugs were more likely to be recreational).

    Recreational?! There's little doubt about it that some of those boys are on harder stuff than recreational drugs if the rest of Europe (Spain/France/Italy) is anything to go by:

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/11/news/oscar-pereiro-rips-press-on-spanish-talk-show-for-favoring-footballers-over-cyclists-in-doping-cases_198209


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  • #12
    TheRoadRunner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,983 ✭✭✭TheRoadRunner


    PainIsTemporary wrote: »
    Recreational?! There's little doubt about it that some of those boys are on harder stuff than recreational drugs if the rest of Europe (Spain/France/Italy) is anything to go by:

    http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/11/news/oscar-pereiro-rips-press-on-spanish-talk-show-for-favoring-footballers-over-cyclists-in-doping-cases_198209

    True wouldn't deny that at all. When money is involved and there is a lot of money in soccer, I would expect some people to cheat.

    However the examples where premiership soccer players have been caught are usually linked to recreational drugs. Paddy Kenny and Adrian Mutu are two that come to mind.


  • #13
    Getonwithit
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭Getonwithit


    Drug use is as prevalent if not more so in other sports IMO. Excellent Channel 4 documentary on drugs in football last Autumn. FA in England is scared of finding cheats and the testing structures are far from as rigourus as in our sport. Anecdotal eveidence would suggest that its even common in some distinguished amateur sports out here on the rock.

    Re the WADA decision it has been clinically proven that some of the bannede substances have a lifetime long benefit. Its a very difficult question to deal with. In order to completly clean the sport and bring in lifetime bans you woud have to re ban previously proven cases and start from scratch. What would it mean to the records of athletes who later tested positive?


  • #14
    PainIsTemporary
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭PainIsTemporary


    TheRoadRunner wrote: »
    True wouldn't deny that at all. When money is involved and there is a lot of money in soccer, I would expect some people to cheat.

    However the examples where premiership soccer players have been caught are usually linked to recreational drugs. Paddy Kenny and Adrian Mutu are two that come to mind.

    That may say more about the testing systems they have in place in the English Premiership than anything else.


  • #15
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    Getonwithit wrote: »
    Drug use is as prevalent if not more so in other sports IMO.

    Can that documentary be found anywhere online? I'd love to see it.


  • #16
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Getonwithit wrote: »
    Drug use is as prevalent if not more so in other sports IMO. Excellent Channel 4 documentary on drugs in football last Autumn. FA in England is scared of finding cheats and the testing structures are far from as rigourus as in our sport.

    IIRC the documentary was more concerned with recreational drug use, not performing-enhancing drugs. It's all the same to the tabloids...


  • #17
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    04072511 wrote: »
    Oh I certainly wont shout for him, but I feel he hasn't had an equal punishment to other drug cheats.

    I think you mean other drug cheats havent had the same punishment as him. Your argument should be to go harder on other drug cheats rather than go easier on Chambers. I think the British approach till now of banning for life from Olympic teams is the correct one.

    There is some evidence that the adaptions (psychological in particular) to running faster than youve wver done before may give permanent adaptions. Permanent adaptions from drugs should equal a permanent ban.


  • #18
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    T runner wrote: »
    I think you mean other drug cheats havent had the same punishment as him. Your argument should be to go harder on other drug cheats rather than go easier on Chambers. I think the British approach till now of banning for life from Olympic teams is the correct one.

    There is some evidence that the adaptions (psychological in particular) to running faster than youve wver done before may give permanent adaptions. Permanent adaptions from drugs should equal a permanent ban.

    In an ideal world we'd never see any drug cheats back in our sport again. Unfortunately this is not the case. I really wish it was, but it isn't. But one person shouldn't be subject to more media interogation than others who have been caught for the exact same crime. Not much talk about Justin Gatlin. Sickens me to the core thinking he could be in London.

    It also must be remembered that Dwain Chambers was banned 9 years ago. It's a long time ago. It's old news. Many drug cheats have come and gone in that time. Chambers has been back in the sport for 7 years now (with a few brief retirements in between). I don't know why there is still such hype surrounding him. You'd swear he was the only person to ever fail a drugs test the way the GB media go on!


  • #19
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,120 ✭✭✭plodder


    Let's be honest though, the potential performance enhancements are much greater in athletics and cycling than most other sports. WADA also seem to have muddied the waters by lumping real PEDs in with just plain illegal (so-called recreational) drugs like cannabis. Failing a test from cannabis is hardly cheating your fellow competitors, the way failing a test for EPO would be.


  • #20
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    plodder wrote: »
    Let's be honest though, the potential performance enhancements are much greater in athletics and cycling than most other sports.

    PED's wont give you Maradona like skills, but they will help you stay strong, fit, and tire less in the last 10 minutes of a game. They will help you stay injury free, or come back quicker from an injury. Make no mistake, the benefits from drugs are huge in football. Don't even get me started on Rugby.


  • #21
    PainIsTemporary
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭PainIsTemporary


    plodder wrote: »
    Let's be honest though, the potential performance enhancements are much greater in athletics and cycling than most other sports.

    Disagree.

    Again, referencing Spanish football here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fuentes-indicted-in-spain-but-out-of-jail


    But I doubt it's isolated to Spain alone. Multi-million euro contracts on the line for some of those players. A lot more pocket money floating around in football than the vast majority of athletes, cyclists, etc have.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but back when the majority of International sporting bodies were signing up to the WADA anti-doping scheme (or whatever it's officially called), there were some sports and sporting federations that were criticized for not signing up. From what I remember the English FA was one.


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  • #22
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,547 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    For his tenacity and passion and commitment to fighting and fighting, let him run.

    He does seem like he has repented. It happened ten years ago didn't it? And, he won't medal anyway.

    No expert here, but if the rules are real clear, then he either is or is not allowed to compete. If not, well, I guess we have to apply the rule.


  • #23
    CoachDudie
    Registered Users Posts: 157 ✭✭CoachDudie


    So it's alright for Chambers to compete at the Olympics because other drugs cheats will be there too?
    What sort of logic is that?
    Also are people trying to excuse drug use in athletics by claiming 'sure it's in all sports'?


  • #24
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,547 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    04072511 wrote: »
    PED's wont give you Maradona like skills, but they will help you stay strong, fit, and tire less in the last 10 minutes of a game. They will help you stay injury free, or come back quicker from an injury. Make no mistake, the benefits from drugs are huge in football. Don't even get me started on Rugby.

    Spot on. Drugs can aid any athlete in any sport, even games like golf, snooker and darts can benefit. Games where concentration levels are very intense. A relaxant or nereve easing drug can certainly help players in these games.


  • #25
    Pherekydes
    Registered Users Posts: 16,109 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    T runner wrote: »
    I think the British approach till now of banning for life from Olympic teams is the correct one.

    It isn't though. The BOA are breaking the rules by doing what they're doing. The rules they are breaking are WADA's. They are the World body for drug testing. CAS has found in WADA's favour; their decision is binding on all subscribing bodies.

    The BOA want their athletes to be honourable and live and compete by the rules; they should too!


  • #26
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,120 ✭✭✭plodder


    04072511 wrote: »
    PED's wont give you Maradona like skills, but they will help you stay strong, fit, and tire less in the last 10 minutes of a game. They will help you stay injury free, or come back quicker from an injury. Make no mistake, the benefits from drugs are huge in football. Don't even get me started on Rugby.
    Right, but the benefit still isn't as great in soccer compared to distance running (or cycling or swimming). EPO won't give you Maradona like skills, but it will give you the edge in distance running - the issue is less clear cut in Rugby though. I would have thought the problem in professional football is young lads having time and money on their hands, and more access to illegal recreational drugs. Just don't see the point of these comparisons with other sports. Athletics should just work hard (as it does) to keep its own house in order.


  • #27
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    plodder wrote: »
    Right, but the benefit still isn't as great in soccer compared to distance running (or cycling or swimming). EPO won't give you Maradona like skills, but it will give you the edge in distance running - the issue is less clear cut in Rugby though. I would have thought the problem in professional football is young lads having time and money on their hands, and more access to illegal recreational drugs. Just don't see the point of these comparisons with other sports. Athletics should just work hard (as it does) to keep its own house in order.

    Very naieve. If testing was as stringent in football as it is in athletics and cycling then you could guarantee a fair chunk of high profile scandels in the beautiful game.

    Drugs wont give you maradona type skills but it would be the difference between somebody with such skill tiring in the last 10 minutes, or staying fit and fast. If the player tires badly late on, then his skills will not be utilised. You are looking at this in a very black and white manner. There are dozens of reasons why teams win, and I'd be certain that half of these reasons could benefit from doping.


  • #28
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    04072511 wrote: »
    If testing was as stringent in football as it is in athletics and cycling then you could guarantee a fair chunk of high profile scandels in the beautiful game.

    In England, footballers are tested after games and outside competition.
    The Channel 4 documentary mentioned upthread revealed that three footballers were banned for evidence of cocaine use. There were no PED revelations.
    The closest thing was an allegation that high testosterone levels detected in four players, including three former England internationals, were not sufficiently scrutinised by the FA.


  • #29
    PainIsTemporary
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭PainIsTemporary


    CoachDudie wrote: »
    Also are people trying to excuse drug use in athletics by claiming 'sure it's in all sports'?

    Not at all. Cheating is cheating, and it's wrong. However, I don't see a thread on the football/soccer forum asking for Rio Ferdinand being banned for life from the World Cup (Olympic Games equivalent for International Footballers).


  • #30
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    PainIsTemporary wrote: »
    Not at all. Cheating is cheating, and it's wrong. However, I don't see a thread on the football/soccer forum asking for Rio Ferdinand being banned for life from the World Cup (Olympic Games equivalent for International Footballers).

    Possibly because he missed a single drug test. That wouldn't get an athlete banned for life from the Olympics, would it?


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  • #31
    Pisco Sour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,029 ✭✭✭Pisco Sour


    RayCun wrote: »
    In England, footballers are tested after games and outside competition.
    The Channel 4 documentary mentioned upthread revealed that three footballers were banned for evidence of cocaine use. There were no PED revelations.
    The closest thing was an allegation that high testosterone levels detected in four players, including three former England internationals, were not sufficiently scrutinised by the FA.

    Ha, think you may have contradicted yourself there.

    <Snip>


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