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A Mere Mention of Abortion.

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    #212
    hattoncracker
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    cofy wrote: »
    A couple of years ago I bumped into an old friend. We got to talking about children and when I was told that I could not have children and then after getting engaged I found out I was pregnant. She then told me that she was also told the same thing. She met a guy after a few weeks of their first time together found out that she was pregnant. She felt that she could not handle this pregnancy and had an abortion. She thought I would hate her for doing this as she felt that I would have more of a reason than some for being against abortion. She talked about a conversation she had heard where people were vehimently against abortion, I asked her what did they have to say about unmarried mothers (as this is what she would have been if she had gone through with the pregnancy). She had'nt thought about that, the very same people had been very vocal on that too. Unmarried mothers were getting too much from the state, it was their decision to have the baby, etc.

    I was surprised that she thought I would hate her until I read the experiences others have had here on this thread. Like some, she felt she could not tell anyone for fear of being labelled. My poor friend did not even tell her family or friends. Until she had spoken to me the only other person who knew about this was the father, they were still together but never talked about it.

    I would love for her to read this thread.

    I didn't start out with the intention that this is what the thread would turn into, but I'm very glad it has gone this way.. It's a frightening thing to try and confide in someome about this, you never know how they're going to react.


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    #213
    embee
    Registered Users Posts: 2,890 ✭✭✭embee


    Mollikins wrote: »
    I don’t have much of a problem with abortion itself. I don’t agree with it but at the same time I don’t think I’d judge someone else for having one. It’s not a decision a woman takes lightly and it’s likely she has a very good reason for doing so. But what I do have a problem with is women using it as a method of contraception. It’s on the increase and it’s very disturbing to hear of such stories.

    Also the 24 week cut off point needs to be revised. So many babies are being born earlier and earlier and surviving thanks to advances in medicine. I know of 2 babies born severely premature (23 and 26 weeks) that are getting stronger everyday and are most definitely going to survive. The little baby born at 23 weeks legally could have been aborted if that was his mothers wish. And that is so incredibly wrong. :(

    Mollikins, 24 weeks is "viability", according to Irish law. If you look at the literature, babies born younger than 24 weeks have little chance of survival, and a high risk of long-term morbidities which can be life-limiting to an extreme level. 24 weeks was arrived at as it takes into account the possible quality of life that that baby, child, teenager, adult will have.... it's not decided on to be cold or cruel, it is just the age below which babies have major, major problems.


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    #214
    Daisy M
    Registered Users Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Daisy M


    I lived in the UK over 15 years ago and became friends with an Irish girl, in turn I met some of her friends and got to know them on a casual basis. One girl had 2 children but previous to that she had 4 abortions. She had 3 abortions first fell pregnant with her first child planned an abortion but didnt get around to it in time, she had the child planned a pregnancy to have a sibling for the first child, got pregnant, became scared, had another abortion and eventually had another accidental pregnancy which resulted in child 2. Abortions were to her a contraceptive. In the same group of 4 girls all the rest had had at least one abortion. These were normal girls from normal backgrounds. I think outside this group I was the only person who knew, it wasnt something they spoke about, so whos to say that if you live in a country where abortion is legal and easily obtained that this type of practice is not common?


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    #215
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Repeat abortions are uncommon, according to BPAS statics.
    The notion that abortion will be used as contraception is another one of those myths pro lifers propagate.

    If a woman has had 4 abortions then I would be wondering what is wrong with her.
    Where that sort of thing happens, there is a lack of taking responsibility for her health and there are often underlying emotional or mental issues.


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    #216
    Daisy M
    Registered Users Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Daisy M


    In order to get the abortions she said she was contemplating suicide. I suppose what was "wrong" with her was that it was a very easy choice for her to make, she said she had no regrets so maybe her personality was lacking in consicience, she had the same partner who was the father in all cases and he seemed ok with it all too.

    Just to add I wonder how correct the statistics are given that a woman could give a made up name and that its still such a taboo subject. As I say this was over 15 years ago nearer 20 and even in the UK it wasnt something that people talked freely about. I find it hard to believe that I came across the one group who all had at least 1 abortion and some had 2 and this lady had 4, I dont doubt that some of them went on to have more.


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    #217
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    I find that boggling as there are ranges of contraceptives out there and health professionals which would have been more then willing to work with them to find something which will work for them and would be a hell of a lot cheaper and easier on her system then abortions.

    Then again she could have been using the abortion pill, which is easier on the body and costs less then a surgical procedure, but it still would be far from the norm.

    BPAS stats usually show that those women who tend to have more then one abortion normally would have only two and that tends to be when they are young late teens early twenties and then when they are in their forties and have had contraception failure associated with menopause.


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    #218
    Daisy M
    Registered Users Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Daisy M


    I dont understand it either, from what I have read most women find an unplanned pregnancy traumatic and dont want to find themselves in that position again whatever decision they make.
    I dont think the abortion pill was available at that time, I was always under the impression that they had had a surgical procedure.


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    #219
    Giselle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Giselle


    Sharrow wrote: »
    The notion that abortion will be used as contraception is another one of those myths pro lifers propagate.

    Please don't propagate the myth that all people who are 'pro-life' (isn't everyone??) are liars who decimate falsehoods.

    Not all people with issues about abortion think the same way or spout propaganda.


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    #220
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Giselle wrote: »
    Please don't propagate the myth that all people who are 'pro-life' (isn't everyone??) are liars who decimate falsehoods.

    Not all people with issues about abortion think the same way or spout propaganda.

    I take your point Giselle that there are people who are pro life moderates.

    I have gotten to know more of them over the years but many of the myths are put about maliciously from certain pro life campaigning groups and then propagated by people who don't question them.


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    #221
    Giselle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,540 ✭✭✭Giselle


    Sharrow wrote: »
    I take your point Giselle that there are people who are pro life moderates.

    I have gotten to know more of them over the years but many of the myths are put about maliciously from certain pro life campaigning groups and then propagated by people who don't question them.

    Its just a subject that far too easily lends itself to unflattering generalisations on both sides, which serves no purpose other than to stifle open exchange and debate.

    I think there's more people who think as I do than people realise, silenced as they are by fear of stereotyping.

    We all know who the guilty parties are re: scaremongering and propaganda, and I simply refuse to be assumed to share their agenda or mind-set. :)


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    #222
    Daisy M
    Registered Users Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Daisy M


    I would consider a foetus to be a baby once its conceived, in my mind its a baby who feels and thinks. I had a miscarriage with my first pregnancy at 11 weeks, I consider that short pregnancy to have been my baby, I believe that one day I will finally get to meet him/her. So when I read someone saying that if a pregnancy is terminated that that baby will never know the difference I am torn. This may be the case but we dont know that for sure and logically we need to acknowledge that it could be either.

    Every set of circumstance is different and I dont want to judge any lady who feels she had no other option. I have to trust that they made what they thought to be the best decision and I wish them well.

    I do wish that free contraception was available in Ireland not only for helping to prevent unwanted pregnancies but also STDS.


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    #223
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Daisy M wrote: »
    I would consider a foetus to be a baby once its conceived, in my mind its a baby who feels and thinks. I had a miscarriage with my first pregnancy at 11 weeks, I consider that short pregnancy to have been my baby, I believe that one day I will finally get to meet him/her. So when I read someone saying that if a pregnancy is terminated that that baby will never know the difference I am torn. This may be the case but we dont know that for sure and logically we need to acknowledge that it could be either.

    Every set of circumstance is different and I dont want to judge any lady who feels she had no other option. I have to trust that they made what they thought to be the best decision and I wish them well.

    I do wish that free contraception was available in Ireland not only for helping to prevent unwanted pregnancies but also STDS.

    You come across as terribly judgemental. Not intentionally perhaps but you seem to think its no more of a decision than deciding to get a smear.

    I work with women who have had abortions. So far I have only ever talked to one who has had more than one and she was in an abusive relationship and basically coerced by her partner at the time. I know having been there myself its not something you would want to do more than once, physically, emotionally, financially its the worst form of contraception I can think of.

    You may feel a baby is a baby from conception but everyone has their own view on that. I personally don't believe that myself which maybe made it easier for me to have an abortion. I am sorry to hear of your loss, I can imagine when you lose a baby that was desperately wanted hearing about people terminating pregnancies must be hard. But everyone has to make their own decisions based on what is going on in their world at the time.


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    #224
    howsyourtusk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭howsyourtusk


    I haven't read all the contributions on this thread so I may be going over old ground. We have de facto abortion in Ireland. It is legal, you just have to travel. Excluding those who cannot financially do so and traumatising those who must leave the country, possibly on their own, to undertake what could potentially be a difficult and traumatic experience. It's disgusting that we continue to wash our hands of this situation.


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    #225
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,909 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Daisy M wrote: »
    I would consider a foetus to be a baby once its conceived, in my mind its a baby who feels and thinks.

    Between weeks 4 and 11 of pregnancy there is no foetus, just an embryo. It's only in week 11 of the pregnancy (or week 9 gestationally) that the embryo becomes a foetus. Before week 4 (or week 2 gestationally) there is a zygote and then a blastocyst. And it certainly doesn't think at that stage, it's not a subjective matter, we know for a fact through the measurement of brain activity that embryos don't think and their ability to feel is very limited.

    I have lost a pregnancy too, a very much wanted one. And believe me to me I lost my baby, but I'm aware enough to know that what I grieve for is the lost potential, my hopes, my dreams not a baby who had ever experienced love or happiness or thought. And I love my baby that I am carrying now and I would be devastated if anything goes wrong but I know that all of the emotional thoughts I have about my baby, about our connection, about what the baby wants, etc are all my feelings and imaginings. The reality is that I'm carrying an embryo which is not now, and won't be for many months, capable of thought or emotion.


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    #226
    I am a friend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭I am a friend


    eviltwin wrote: »
    everyone has their own view on that

    exactly and you come across as terribly judgemental of Daisy M.


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    #227
    Kooli
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    I am a friend wrote: »
    exactly and you come across as terribly judgemental of Daisy M.

    Actually I thought her response was respectful and compassionate. Disagreement is not the same as judgement.


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    #228
    I am a friend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,479 ✭✭✭I am a friend


    Kooli wrote: »
    Actually I thought her response was respectful and compassionate. Disagreement is not the same as judgement.

    telling someone else they are judgemental is making a judgement


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    #229
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I am a friend wrote: »
    telling someone else they are judgemental is making a judgement

    I'm not judging her, far from it and I retract it if she finds it so. I gather she is prolife or has leanings that way and I respect that. I don't think I have any more of a valid opinion on this than she does. I am just pointing out that the stats are quite clear and women having repeat abortions are usually those in abusive situations or who have other issues. Its not really true that women see and use abortion as contraception. It is however a myth that is continually put out there by certain pro life groups and needs to be discounted.


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    #230
    Daisy M
    Registered Users Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Daisy M


    Honestly I dont think that anyone wants to argue over what is a really sensitive topic. I would hate for someone who had an abortion to think that I am judging them and think they were using it as some kind of contraceptive. I have another friend who had an abortion and who still 20 years later is affected by it. When I mentioned about using it as a contraceptive it was about the woman who had an 4 abortions in a relatively short time frame, over the course of 3.5 years and she also had a full term pregnancy in this time. I doubt that anyone could condone this behaviour.

    Eviltwin what part of my that you quoted came across judgemental or gave the impression that I thought hving a termination was similar to having a smear? I am genuinely curious I have reread the quoted post and I cant see it? Also you said that I may feel a baby is a baby from when they are conceived yes I do feel that, I am entitled to feel like that as others are entitled to feel its not, I stated how I felt to explain why I am not comfortable with abortion and yet I am not anti abortion either, basically my feelings on the matter are torn.
    Also just to add hearing of other people choosing to have abortions doesnt make me angry with them. Even when I lost my baby I never felt like that. The way I see it is someone elses baby/pregnancy was not mine it had no bearing on my life as mine had no bearing on theirs.

    I really do wish that there was more prevention help via contraception available freely to all women be it the morning after pill. condoms ect. The amount of girls I know who have came off the pill as it didnt suit them and ended up with an unplanned pregnancy is unreal. We ladies should be able to attend free clinics where someone will help us find the contraception that will work best with our bodies and lifestyle. Obviously I do know contraception doesnt always work but I believe free clinics and contraception would go someway towards prevention of unwanted pregnancies and traumatised women.


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    #231
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    Daisy M wrote: »
    When I mentioned about using it as a contraceptive it was about the woman who had an 4 abortions in a relatively short time frame, over the course of 3.5 years and she also had a full term pregnancy in this time. I doubt that anyone could condone this behaviour.
    .

    I'm actually going to disagree with you here: an abortion in the UK a legal medical procedure, it's none of our business how many a person has, and not up to us to condone it or not. It is STILL her body and her choice, regardless of her having one abortion or four or twenty. We might baulk at it, but we either accept a woman has autonomy over her body in this regard or we do not.


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    #232
    howsyourtusk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭howsyourtusk


    And on and on with the moralising!! The use of the word "condone" is just your attempt to force moral judgement on this person. I would think, as other posters have said, that someone having 4 abortions in a short period of time is someone who is probably suffering from other difficulties in life and should be given the help she needs to deal with those underlying issues.


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    #233
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I think I read your reply and thought "here we go again" cause I have heard so many stories about women who have had multiple abortions and have yet to meet more than one. Its an argument the pro life lobby use a lot, that if we have abortion in Ireland women will use it like the pill and I don't believe for one second that would ever happen. I am sorry for calling you judgemental, your later post shows you are anything but.

    But I would hate for anyone on the fence to think having an abortion is so run of the mill that you would go back for a second just like it was something as straight forward as a smear so I do think we need to be careful how we discuss it.

    I can only give my experiences of it...I feel no one really listens to the women who have been there, everyone is so busy with their point of view that they never actually want to hear the reality, and both sides are guilty of that. I will admit myself I really did think that once I was home I would be fine and move on with my life like it was nothing. I wish someone had been around to give me a proper picture of it so I would be prepared for the way it would affect me. I wish there was more help, I wish there were places to talk about it without being afraid or it turning into a huge moral debate.

    The facts are we are stuck with it...as long as people have sex there will be unplanned pregnancies and women will want abortions. I think we owe it to them to allow them to have those abortions here in the country they live in, in safety and without fear. We also desperately need proper after abortion care and counselling for those who need it.


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    #234
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    eviltwin wrote: »

    The facts are we are stuck with it...as long as people have sex there will be unplanned pregnancies and women will want abortions. I think we owe it to them to allow them to have those abortions here in the country they live in, in safety and without fear. We also desperately need proper after abortion care and counselling for those who need it.


    Well said.


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    #235
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    Daisy M wrote: »
    In order to get the abortions she said she was contemplating suicide. I suppose what was "wrong" with her was that it was a very easy choice for her to make, she said she had no regrets so maybe her personality was lacking in consicience, she had the same partner who was the father in all cases and he seemed ok with it all too.

    As for being judgemental, this is quite a remarkable statement.


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    #236
    howsyourtusk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭howsyourtusk


    fatmammycat wrote: »
    As for being judgemental, this is quite a remarkable statement.

    Indeed. Do people realise that you can only have a conscience when it comes to sentient human beings? An embryo is not a sentient human being, it doesn't have thoughts, you're not betraying it or treating it ill. This sort of language is just odd frankly.


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    #237
    Daisy M
    Registered Users Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Daisy M


    howsyourtusk wrote: »
    And on and on with the moralising!! The use of the word "condone" is just your attempt to force moral judgement on this person. I would think, as other posters have said, that someone having 4 abortions in a short period of time is someone who is probably suffering from other difficulties in life and should be given the help she needs to deal with those underlying issues.


    Honestly she didnt I knew her quiet well and she was lifelong friends with my best friend. She liked going out liked having a good time and told me herself she felt no guilt and having the procedure wasnt too bad, she had got used to it.

    You are trying to paint a picture that everywoman who has an abortion is conflicted and torn its not true just as its not true to say that every woman who has never had a termination has never considered one. This is not a black or white issue, different people have different needs and different opinions. I am entitled to say I would never consider an abortion without it upsetting anyone else just as they are entitled to say they would consider or have had one.


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    #238
    howsyourtusk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,005 ✭✭✭howsyourtusk


    But what we're saying is why should she feel guilt? Who the hell has she betrayed?


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    #239
    Kooli
    Registered Users Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Kooli


    howsyourtusk wrote: »
    But what we're saying is why should she feel guilt? Who the hell has she betrayed?

    Exactly!
    I hate the notion that abortion is only OK if it's traumatic, and if the woman is torn apart by it for years after.
    Yes, for some women it's awful, of course. But for some women it's a good decision and there are no regrets and no trauma!

    OK so there's a woman who had four abortions, and you wonder what was wrong with her. I believe it's better than her now having five unwanted children, which may have happened if she lived here.


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    #240
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I would think there are very few women who don't have some issues afterwards. Not full blown depression perhaps but something. Its silly to say that having a baby or putting one up for adoption will have an impact but an abortion won't.


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    #241
    fatmammycat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,208 ✭✭✭fatmammycat


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I would think there are very few women who don't have some issues afterwards. Not full blown depression perhaps but something. Its silly to say that having a baby or putting one up for adoption will have an impact but an abortion won't.

    It's not silly to say that, I know a number of women who have had abortions, and don't regret them in any way shape or form. Two of them who went on to become mothers. The reality is abortion is different for every woman, but we should not judge them because of that.


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