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Quotas for Female Politicians in Ireland

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    If the people think they're good enough they'll get voted in, having quotas would be more undemocratic I would have thought. Don't see why someone should get in just because they're a woman if theres a man that can do a better job. There's also less women interested in running I would imagine

    Just to be clear, this is about expanding the candidate pool. Ultimately the decision is up to voters. So someone isn't automatically going to "get in" because they are female, they would just get a look.

    The "if there's a man who can do a better job" part of this bothers me. By what criteria do you define 'better job'? Is a man who organized campus youth party events doing a "better job" than a woman who organized fundraisers for her child's school? I think that party officials need to broaden how they define "political experience" and capabilities, and quotas might force them to do that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Sorry to double-post, but Ivana Bacik of the Labour Party had an op-ed in the Irish Times today on the quota issue. Her sub-committee report on women in Irish politics found the following:
    ...First, we examined the challenges facing women on entry into politics, and suggested that these can be summarised under five headings (the “five C’s”): childcare; cash; confidence; culture; and candidate selection procedures.

    Under “childcare”, we found that the “long hours” culture in politics is a factor which discourages women from being more politically active. We recommended therefore that, for example, changes to political party processes and council and Oireachtas sitting times are necessary to ensure that childcare and other family responsibilities can be accommodated, both for men and women in politics.

    Under the “cash” heading, we found lack of resources to be another major factor inhibiting women in politics, particularly as, in Ireland, women earn on average 22 per cent less than their male counterparts. We recommended, among other things, the establishment of a national fundraising campaign to finance women’s electoral campaigns and the voluntary provision of additional funds by parties to support women candidates.

    Under “confidence” – women tend to lack sufficient self-belief to participate actively in political life, and to put themselves forward for selection in political parties. So we recommended that parties be encouraged to introduce recruitment drives aimed at women, seeking to identify and “head-hunt” women in local areas.

    Under the “culture” heading, we found that the “overall masculine image of politics”, remains as a powerful barrier for women’s increased participation. We recommended that specific steps be taken, in particular through the education system, to encourage more women into politics through education programmes, and the creation of a national data bank of potential women candidates, on a constituency-by-constituency basis.

    Finally, the issue of candidate selection procedures within political parties has been identified in research internationally as the single most important obstacle to women’s political participation. This is the most controversial area, and this is where the question of quotas arises.

    The question is how best to reform these procedures to achieve increased numbers of women in parliament. We reviewed the different models for reform in various countries and found that legislative electoral quotas, as experienced in Spain and Belgium, would be effective in the Irish political system. Thus, we recommended that candidate quota legislation be adopted, to oblige each political party to impose a maximum limit on the proportion of candidates of any one gender selected to run in elections at local, national and European levels. Such legislation should be introduced on a temporary basis only, to ensure that when targets are met, the law will lapse.


  • Registered Users, Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 15,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    I'd disagree with quotas - another poster mentioned that it would be basically seen as oh she got in just because she is a woman. They could be aliens for all I care, it is whoever is best suited to the job, should get the job, not on the basis of gender. Forcing quotas on parties could backfire. I do agree that more should be done to get wmoen into politics, but forcing quotas isn't the way.
    “In 1990 when Mary Robinson was elected as our first women president we were at 37th place in the world classification of women’s representation in the single or lower house of national parliament…but by October of this year we had fallen to 84th position in the world

    In the last twenty years, women's rights and role in Ireland have changed dramatically, from the traditional stay at home mother to women that are empowered, independent and career woman. I'm not saying all women are or were, but imo thats the stereotype that is out there now, with more families than 20 years ago having both parents employed outside the home. So how come 20 years ago, when women weren't seen as equal to males as they are today we were very high up that list, whereas now in a modern society where gender discrimination exists less than 20 years ago that women in power has dropped so significantly.

    Ms Basik mentions about the“overall masculine image of politics” as a barrier that still remains, but how come 20 years ago, that barrier was seemingly being overcome much easier than today, when the perceived role of women has come a long way? She did hit the nail on the head when she says that we assumed that women's participation would increase but it hasn't, in fact it has decreased!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1105/breaking52.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,262 ✭✭✭✭Joey the lips


    I've always wondered about this: Irish voters seem willing to put women in as the head of state, but do you think they would support a woman as head of government? Arguably much of the role of head of state is symbolic - it's not unimportant, but it doesn't necessarily affect the day-to-day operation of the state in the same way.

    I just wonder because it seems like many voting publics are comfortable seeing women in high positions that have symbolic meaning or moral significance but aren't actually that powerful. Or within government women on the front bench or within the cabinet have positions that are important - like health or education - but are considered 'soft', especially compared to positions such as Minister of Finance, which seems to be a springboard to the position of taoiseach. I know this isn't uniformly true, but it does seem like a general trend.

    Or maybe the problem isn't the public, but the parties themselves...

    All mary hannifan has to do is a stint in finance and she is ready for the job....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    The "if there's a man who can do a better job" part of this bothers me. By what criteria do you define 'better job'? Is a man who organized campus youth party events doing a "better job" than a woman who organized fundraisers for her child's school? I think that party officials need to broaden how they define "political experience" and capabilities, and quotas might force them to do that.

    Thats a very,very valid point actually!

    For me the person who will do a better job is those active in their local communities and passionate about ensuring a decent standard of living for all. Its why Maureen O'Sullivan was one of the few people I've bothered voting for.

    In Dublin you'll see the majority of those active in community groups are women,spearheading various campaigns in their local area's. So by my definition of what is the best person for the job their really should be more women td's!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    In the last twenty years, women's rights and role in Ireland have changed dramatically, from the traditional stay at home mother to women that are empowered, independent and career woman. I'm not saying all women are or were, but imo thats the stereotype that is out there now, with more families than 20 years ago having both parents employed outside the home. So how come 20 years ago, when women weren't seen as equal to males as they are today we were very high up that list, whereas now in a modern society where gender discrimination exists less than 20 years ago that women in power has dropped so significantly.

    Ms Basik mentions about the“overall masculine image of politics” as a barrier that still remains, but how come 20 years ago, that barrier was seemingly being overcome much easier than today, when the perceived role of women has come a long way? She did hit the nail on the head when she says that we assumed that women's participation would increase but it hasn't, in fact it has decreased!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1105/breaking52.html

    I don't think it was that Ireland was so great 20 years ago, I just think that other countries were abysmal. Ireland didn't change, but the rest of the world did.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    All mary hannifan has to do is a stint in finance and she is ready for the job....

    No.
    I don't want a rabid right wing ultra conservative catholic like that leading the government thank you all the same.


  • Registered Users, Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 15,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    panda100 wrote: »
    Thats a very,very valid point actually!

    For me the person who will do a better job is those active in their local communities and passionate about ensuring a decent standard of living for all. Its why Maureen O'Sullivan was one of the few people I've bothered voting for.

    In Dublin you'll see the majority of those active in community groups are women,spearheading various campaigns in their local area's. So by my definition of what is the best person for the job their really should be more women td's!

    She is one of the TD's who said No to quotas. I completely agree about the fact that those active in their local communities are the best people for the job.

    Just for interest, I'll list the TD's that said no to quotas
    Mary Hanafin - not a good idea or necessarily work
    Mary Harney - where we are is very disappointing
    Mary White (minister of state for equality) - I got in without a quota and I'm very proud of that
    Mary Coughlan - women should be elected according to their ability
    Aine Brady - reluctant to engage in the quota method
    Mary O Rourke - quotas are discriminatory
    Mary Wallace - women involved in FF have strong role models
    Maire Hickey - I may change my mind, no progress has been made
    Lucinda Creighton - quotas are a very easy way to get people off the hook
    Olwyn Enright - quotas are a little simplistic
    Roisin Shortall - I never felt I'd like to be in a a quota position
    Mary Upton - next thing there will be a quota for blue eyes
    Maureen O Sullivan - they are insulting to women

    On the yes side we have
    Beverley Flynn - in an ideal world I wouldn't agree
    Margaret Conlon - I have no difficulty with quotas per se
    Deidre Clune - politics is a male dominated world
    Kathleen Lynch - choice is democratic
    Olivia Mitchell - I'm a very reluctant yes
    Joan Burton - broadly support the proposal
    Liz McManus - but I don't believe it is going to be easy

    Only one TD is one the fence, Catherine Byrne, stating that it is a difficult decision to make


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    In the last twenty years, women's rights and role in Ireland have changed dramatically, from the traditional stay at home mother to women that are empowered, independent and career woman. I'm not saying all women are or were, but imo thats the stereotype that is out there now, with more families than 20 years ago having both parents employed outside the home. So how come 20 years ago, when women weren't seen as equal to males as they are today we were very high up that list, whereas now in a modern society where gender discrimination exists less than 20 years ago that women in power has dropped so significantly.

    Because generation Yes seems to think all the battles are won until they find themselves being discriminated against so they are not as active or getting as involved and so there is a gap and the causes being dropped.

    Ms Basik mentions about the“overall masculine image of politics” as a barrier that still remains, but how come 20 years ago, that barrier was seemingly being overcome much easier than today, when the perceived role of women has come a long way? She did hit the nail on the head when she says that we assumed that women's participation would increase but it hasn't, in fact it has decreased!

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/1105/breaking52.html

    It is still very masculine from the attire required to how a person presents themselves and debates and a lot of the skills and attributes associated are seen as unfeminine and there fore make a woman unattractive.

    The outspoken woman is still seen as an aberration and as a result it is not something many young women aspire to.

    We don't have the type of social studies we need about politics and women in politics in secondary school where it is needed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Its an outrageous idea. Totally counter democratic.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Because generation Yes seems to think all the battles are won until they find themselves being discriminated against so they are not as active or getting as involved and so there is a gap and the causes being dropped.



    It is still very masculine from the attire required to how a person presents themselves and debates and a lot of the skills and attributes associated are seen as unfeminine and there fore make a woman unattractive.

    The outspoken woman is still seen as an aberration and as a result it is not something many young women aspire to.

    We don't have the type of social studies we need about politics and women in politics in secondary school where it is needed.

    They'll have to get over it. That's the price you pay as a woman if you want to get into politics, unless you're in Italy, where they will elect a porn star.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    My question on this would be why would I as a voter want to be represented by a politician who is incapable of even getting fairly elected ?

    If a prospective representative of mine (ie a FF/FG/LAB/Green/SF etc politician) is not capable of being personally selected by their party, and of attaining the correct level of votes in a general election to enter office what does that say about their abilities as a representative of my best interests ?

    I would rather be represented by a politician who is at least capable of being elected fairly.

    This is an anti democratic proposal in my view in that it discriminates against the dynammic and the capable in favour of those who are not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Its an outrageous idea. Totally counter democratic.

    Well, a lot of democracies have it, and it has made a huge difference in female representation. It takes a long time for the culture at the top to change though.

    Given the statistics, what would you suggest?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    Morlar wrote: »
    My question on this would be why would I as a voter want to be represented by a politician who is incapable of even getting fairly elected ?

    If a prospective representative of mine (ie a FF/FG/LAB/Green/SF etc politician) is not capable of being personally selected by their party, and of attaining the correct level of votes in a general election to enter office what does that say about their abilities as a representative of my best interests ?

    You have a lot of faith in parties. Perhaps more than you should, given the party leadership in this country for the last two decades.
    Morlar wrote: »
    I would rather be represented by a politician who is at least capable of being elected fairly.

    It's not about elections, it's about the candidates.
    Morlar wrote: »
    This is an anti democratic proposal in my view in that it discriminates against the dynammic and the capable in favour of those who are not.

    Do you really think the most dynamic and capable politicians are the ones that the party selects to put on the ballot? A huge percentage of Irish politicians are there because they are members of dynastic political families.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Do people seriously believe that sexism is the actual answer to the problem of sexism? Seriously? :confused:

    Madness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Well, a lot of democracies have it, and it has made a huge difference in female representation. It takes a long time for the culture at the top to change though.

    Given the statistics, what would you suggest?

    What democracies use quotas in their elections?

    I have no suggestions as to artificially create a representation that is anti democratic just to satisfy a leftist fantasy.

    Let the people decide.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    You have a lot of faith in parties.

    No this issue is not about whether or not you have a lot of faith in Irish political parties at all. Nor politicians for that matter. I have next to no faith in Irish political parties and still am opposed to this anti-democratic proposal/notion.

    However I would say I have even less faith in those politicians who are incapable of getting themselves fairly elected to the position they want to have and claim to deserve. How could any self respecting politician take a position they have not earned fairly ? Do you really think this would attract the most noble character and the righteous/capable etc ?
    Perhaps more than you should, given the party leadership in this country for the last two decades.

    This discussion is about quotas which will make compulsory the discrimination against male in favour of female meaning that factors like skilll and leadership not to mention guile and personality, charm, tact, ability etc go out the window in favour of what's between your legs. This is something you claim to be opposed to is it not ?
    It's not about elections, it's about the candidates.

    It is about the political representatives. Perhaps you can address a single point I made in that post ? Why should I or any other voter in this country be content to be represented by a political candidate who is incapable of being fairly chosen for the job ?
    Do you really think the most dynamic and capable politicians are the ones that the party selects to put on the ballot?

    If you can not maneuvre and manipulate your political party into placing your name on the ballot then you are not a capable representative of my best interests. If you can not get your political career over the most basic of hurdles what can I expect from you in terms of leadership qualities as my representative ? Answer = Zilch.
    A huge percentage of Irish politicians are there because they are members of dynastic political families.

    Utterly irrelevant. Female members of dynastic political families are also there. There are both male and female non members of political dynasties too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    Do you really think the most dynamic and capable politicians are the ones that the party selects to put on the ballot? A huge percentage of Irish politicians are there because they are members of dynastic political families.

    Best way to get 'fairly' selected as an electoral candidate by FF or FG is join when your young and kiss lots of ass for 20 years ; Promote big business or a rich businessman over the welfare of your constituents as they will be providing you with your campaign fund; Focus on a completely irrelevant issue such as stag hunting or head shops and create complete hysteria about it in your area ; Attend as many funerals of dead constituents you can and pretend to be sorry they died on a trolley in an understaffed,packed A+E ward.

    How can anyone defend the current electoral and political system in this country?!


  • Registered Users, Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 15,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭rebel girl 15


    Morlar wrote: »
    Utterly irrelevant. Female members of dynastic political families are also there. There are both male and female non members of political dynasties too.

    Mary O Rourke of the Lenihan political dynasty being the example that pops into my head

    edit - Mary Hanafin as well I think had a father and brother involved in high level politics


  • Registered Users Posts: 527 ✭✭✭EI111


    Quotas are undemocratic


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    They'll have to get over it. That's the price you pay as a woman if you want to get into politics, unless you're in Italy, where they will elect a porn star.

    See, the whole "you just need to get over it because that's how it is" is exactly why there is some logic behind quotas. It's ridiculous to think that if a woman isn't a back-slapping loudmouth (Bertie Ahern), from a political dynasty (seemingly half of the Dail), who dresses like a banker (90% of the Dail) then she should just sit out. I started this debate more on the anti-quota side, but if some of the frankly dismissive attitudes displayed in this thread are actually helping to make me a convert to the cause.

    There is a very specific, ossified political culture that permeates the country's two largest parties in particular, and it is far more conservative and traditional than in most other European countries...many of which, by the way, have gender quotas.

    Finally, for the record, I have yet to see Maureen O'Sullivan in government buildings when she wasn't wearing a big fuzzy jumper and pants. And most of the women in the Dublin city council who aren't members of FF or FG don't wear dark suits and pearls. I think a lot of voters would rather have a representative who works hard for them and listens to their concerns, rather than someone who "looks the part" and has the "right" name.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Morlar wrote: »
    If a prospective representative of mine (ie a FF/FG/LAB/Green/SF etc politician) is not capable of being personally selected by their party, and of attaining the correct level of votes in a general election to enter office what does that say about their abilities as a representative of my best interests ?

    I would rather be represented by a politician who is at least capable of being elected fairly.

    The point being made it that the system isn't fair and the culture of politics in this country is biased towards men.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    You have to dress for politics. Bertie had to get rid of his anorak.

    Its part of it, protocols, respect for the public space, status. Clothes are ver important in politics.

    I'll ask again. What countries have gender quotas?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    I think a lot of voters would rather have a representative who works hard for them and listens to their concerns, rather than someone who "looks the part" and has the "right" name.
    Of course, on that particular point, you are completely incorrect.

    Maybe in an ideal world, but we're not in an ideal world, we're in Ireland - and unless you've been away for the last, ...ever(?), you'd know better. The voting public do not want a "representative who works hard for them and listens to their concerns" as has been proven in nearly all of our recent elections. Anyways, thats a separate issue.

    As Morlar said: why should I or any other voter in this country be content to be represented by a political candidate who is incapable of being fairly chosen for the job?

    Why do you wish to pervert the very concept of democracy in order to promote one sex over another? It's a type of elitest tripe I'd expect 50 years ago. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    You have to dress for politics. Bertie had to get rid of his anorak.

    Its part of it, protocols, respect for the public space, status. Clothes are ver important in politics.

    Makes me think of Charles Haughey and his tailored shirts while the majority of the country had no shoes to put on their feet.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    See, the whole "you just need to get over it because that's how it is" is exactly why there is some logic behind quotas. It's ridiculous to think that if a woman isn't a back-slapping loudmouth (Bertie Ahern), from a political dynasty (seemingly half of the Dail), who dresses like a banker (90% of the Dail) then she should just sit out.

    That is a nonsensical characterisation of the side of this discussion which considers discriminatory quotas in politics to be anti-democratic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    The point of democracy is not what YOU think voters want, but what the voters actually want.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    The point of democracy is not what YOU think voters want, but what the voters actually want.

    A more accurate way of putting that would be to say that

    'it's not about what YOU think the voters SHOULD want'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    What democracies use quotas in their elections?

    This was in an earlier post, but: Belgium, France, Spain, South Africa, and India to name a few. Most of the Scandinavian countries do as well.
    I have no suggestions as to artificially create a representation that is anti democratic just to satisfy a leftist fantasy.

    Let the people decide.

    How can they decide if a significant percentage of Irish constituencies had NO female candidates in the last elections? You mean to say that there were no qualified women that the parties could find to run for office in an entire county? See to me this says they aren't looking and they don't give a ****.
    Morlar wrote: »
    No this issue is not about whether or not you have a lot of faith in Irish political parties at all. Nor politicians for that matter. I have next to no faith in Irish political parties and still am opposed to this anti-democratic proposal/notion.

    However I would say I have even less faith in those politicians who are incapable of getting themselves fairly elected to the position they want to have and claim to deserve. How could any self respecting politician take a position they have not earned fairly ? Do you really think this would attract the most noble character and the righteous/capable etc ?

    The current system doesn't; again what would you suggest?

    As I said in a previous post, if parties were pushed to cast their net a little wider for candidates, they may end up with better male candidates as well.

    Morlar wrote: »

    It is about the political representatives. Perhaps you can address a single point I made in that post ? Why should I or any other voter in this country be content to be represented by a political candidate who is incapable of being fairly chosen for the job ?

    BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT REPRESENTED BY A CANDIDATE, YOU ARE REPRESENTED BY AN ELECTED OFFICIAL.


    Morlar wrote: »
    If you can not maneuvre and manipulate your political party into placing your name on the ballot then you are not a capable representative of my best interests. If you can not get your political career over the most basic of hurdles what can I expect from you in terms of leadership qualities as my representative ? Answer = Zilch.

    So Sarah Ryan and Maurice Ahern were capable because they got their names on the ballots in Dublin? Fianna Fail kept going back to that same old well, and were too stupid to see that it had dried up. (Not that the outcome bothered me in the least; I was delighted).

    Morlar wrote: »
    Utterly irrelevant. Female members of dynastic political families are also there. There are both male and female non members of political dynasties too.

    It is relevant because it underscores how closed the political system has been traditionally to 'new blood'. Again, this is something that affect both male and female potential candidates. As I said before, I think parties need to look for candidates beyond the GAA, the youth wing, and their family barbeques; if they did so, it would not only benefit women, but candidates of both sexes who don't come from these 'traditional' candidate pools.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    We're through the looking-glass here people; metrovelvet & I agreeing on a topic! Who'd have thunk it

    /OT


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