"Southern" Ireland... do you mean 'Ireland'?

JaysusMacfeck · 06-04-2006 4:05am #1

I had the honour of reading some history books, British curriculum history books no less.. still used in England today.

The Brits in school are taught about "Irish" history in a very different way than we are, as I discovered. I put 'Irish' in quotes because it is taught as "other history of the British isles".

Irish history in the English curriculum is extremely scarce, and any mention of the island of Ireland refers to mainly Northern Ireland and the IRA terrorists killing the innocent British protestants - the rightful British landowners in Ireland who were “discriminated against” and "disrespected by the Catholics".

Ireland (as we know it) is referred to as "Southern" Ireland only, which is a part the British Isles (pictures showing Ireland and Britain with "BRITISH ISLES" plastered all over Ireland - very misleading me thinks. This is why Brits ask me if I’m “southern Irish”. I say “No, I’m not from Cork, I’m from Dublin, I’m Irish….”

According to this book, the problems in N.I are due to the... “long established British protestants” and “the Catholic differences that opposed them and wanted to invade the protestant, British land”. Also, some vague mention of England granting "Southern Ireland" some sort of limited control over “some southern areas’.

OK, let’s pretend that I'm a British kid learning history in Britain. As far as I'm concerned, the island of Ireland belongs to the UK, all the people from Ireland were originally British, and the 'troubles' on that little island are due to the minority Catholic 'backward' people, and also the IRA terrorists. It’s these pesky ‘Irish’ people that became greedy and wanted the land in Ireland for themselves.

I AM TELLING YOU NOW – I have lived and worked in the UK for 3 years – This is what the majority of English people think.

You’d be surprised at how many think that the whole Island of Ireland is ruled by London and that the Irish people are of royal blood and that the Union Jack represents the two islands. I pity these people, I pity the fact that they have been fed bull**** for most of there lives.

Why do the Brits censor their shameful history? The Germans are taught EVERYTHING about their history - I respect the Germans in that they know the TRUTH about their country’s history. I also respect the Dutch because they are taught MORE about Irish history than the Brits– I cannot count the amount of times the Dutch have apologised for mistaking me as British!

Some 'facts' from British education:

"The Gaelic language comes from Scotland. All music, language and culture originated from British Scotland ....... The Southern Irish still use old Scottish Gaelic placenames on their road signs, they cling to their links with the other British languages."

Wrong. Irish comes from Ireland. The Scottish language comes from Irish. The Scots came from Ireland!

redmagic · 06-04-2006 4:20am

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

Why do the Brits censor their shameful history?

all your information was enlightening but not surprising.
the only answer (at this moment) that comes to mind for the above question is: the English are as arrogant as ever.
As i've come to understand that history is written by the conquerors, that my country was taken from its rightful people by the greedy British, just as they took land from others, I have become more and more angry at them. I understand that it was not the fault of the British today, however, they are the ones who should be fessing up and teaching the true history of the the Republic of Ireland and the UK.

Victor · 06-04-2006 4:51am

And on the flip side, one of my teachers had the class chanting anti-English slogans.

Our man in Havana · 06-04-2006 4:58am

Southern Ireland is one of the most annoying phrases in the english langauage. I get so annoyed when i see it scrawled on letters I receive from the UK. Would it be too much to put Republic of Ireland or simply Ireland on them?

nuttz · 06-04-2006 4:59am

Your point?

nothing new there boyo.

move on...

as for this :"We're still Britain's bitch it seems."
No we are not, …. basis for the argument please?

If the majority of the British public want to delude themselves with the above rant so what, that doesn’t make us their bitch to use your terminology.

At this stage, I think most people in the UK have the common sense to see past what the British Empire was.

JaysusMacfeck · 06-04-2006 5:02am

nuttz wrote:

Your point?

My point? Didn't you read my post? :eek:

Banphrionsa · 06-04-2006 5:16am

What might also be of interest are Irish legends that predate the British occupation hundreds of years ago. Legends contribute to culture and a sense of identity. For example, the romantic legend of Diarmiud and Grainne. The Kingdom of Tara was said to be south of the River Shannon, and where this legend begins, although the beds of Diarmiud and Grainne are said to be throughout rural Ireland.

nuttz · 06-04-2006 5:18am

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

My point? Didn't you read my post? :eek:

I have also lived and worked in the UK for 3 years+ and disagree. It's your opinion, not fact. You over-exaggerate and sensationalise worse than your average tabloid.

So what if English people are taught the above, the people I knew over there had the common sense to see past all that, and would nearly go so far as to say that some were probably ashamed of colonisation and their history, full stop.

nuttz · 06-04-2006 5:49am

Banphrionsa wrote:

Legends contribute to culture and a sense of identity. For example, the romantic legend of Diarmiud and Grainne.

I’m not sure what to say to that

, legends do contribute to culture and a sense of national identity to an extent. But you raise a valid point so far as to say that our identity lies in our Celtic roots, but also that major parts of our culture do not lie within one country, i.e. Scots Gaelic and Gaelige are Celtic languages and are not specific to any one country, same as the welsh language being spoken in Patagonia.

Hobbes · 06-04-2006 7:34am

Did some of my early years schooling in England and that is pretty much correct in regards to Irish history (if it was touched on at all).

Although Irish history in classes is pretty much as bad. Glosses over the people killed by the IRA.

WhiteWashMan · 06-04-2006 8:27am

the phrase 'southern ireland' is descriptive, rather than a political entity.

besides, most english people i know dont really give a monkeys about ireland in the same way that most irish people i know dont give a monkeys about the UK.

and so what if many british people think what you have written. so what?
as someone asked, whats your point?

and by the way, the scottish people didnt ceom from ireland. i think you will find that people made their way across landbridge from the continent through the uk and into ireland.
at what point can we claim that these scottish people were once 'irish'? sure if this was the case, the english have a pretty good argument to say that the irish people came from them?

nuttz · 06-04-2006 8:33am

thank you WWM

Dyr · 06-04-2006 8:44am

nuttz wrote:

I have also lived and worked in the UK for 3 years+ and disagree. It's your opinion, not fact. You over-exaggerate and sensationalise worse than your average tabloid.

So what if English people are taught the above, the people I knew over there had the common sense to see past all that, and would nearly go so far as to say that some were probably ashamed of colonisation and their history, full stop.

thats, like, you opinion, not fact lol

When englsih types use southern ireland to me, i just look confused and say "ehh no I live on the east coast not in the south". In fairness, most of those fiendish english types use the term simply becaused their conditioned to do so, rather than out of any malice

nuttz · 06-04-2006 8:54am

Bambi wrote:

thats, like, you opinion, not fact lol

I wasn't stating fact or making a case that what I said was factual. The initial poster implied that all he said was gospel, I disputed that. So like most other posts on this website my posts could/should be interpreted as opinion.

Macha · 06-04-2006 9:13am

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

Why do the Brits censor their shameful history? The Germans are taught EVERYTHING about their history - I respect the Germans in that they know the TRUTH about their country’s history. I also respect the Dutch because they are taught MORE about Irish history than the Brits– I cannot count the amount of times the Dutch have apologised for mistaking me as British!

I know that in France, they're pretty bad at teaching kids about WW2. The glaring but painful fact that France collaborated with the Nazi's is skimmed over, while the Resistance is blown way out of proportion.

National pride can be a dangerous thing, especially when the truth gets covered up.

And nuttz, I do think what people in the UK think matters. Like it or not, the UK still is a huge influence in Ireland, culturally, economically (not so much now, thanks to the EU), etc. Not everyone is balanced enough to see that what they're being taught is biased, perhaps because they are children when this is taught to them. The people you met in the UK may very well realise this, but maybe you were moving in Irish cirlcles? I mean, I could say the same thing, but I'd be referring to my relatives who live over there (who obviously are aware of the facts of Irish history)

nuttz · 06-04-2006 9:31am

taconnol wrote:

And nuttz, I do think what people in the UK think matters. Like it or not, the UK still is a huge influence in Ireland, culturally, economically (not so much now, thanks to the EU), etc. Not everyone is balanced enough to see that what they're being taught is biased, perhaps because they are children when this is taught to them. The people you met in the UK may very well realise this, but maybe you were moving in Irish cirlcles? I mean, I could say the same thing, but I'd be referring to my relatives who live over there (who obviously are aware of the facts of Irish history)

I never said that the opinions of people in the UK didn't matter, yes the UK has and is a good influence on us, as are we (the Irish State)on them.
True, not everyone is balanced enough to see that what they're being taught is biased. And no, I was in a very much non Irish circle of friends.

I think you missed the points of the previous posts.

Canis Lupus · 06-04-2006 9:35am

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

What he said

Which books are these as a matter of interest?

Finally in this day and age who gives a ****? Anyone with a modicum of sense knows better or can't be arsed about the entire thing. Sure we're all friends now anyway

Boggle · 06-04-2006 9:52am

Anyone with a modicum of sense knows better or can't be arsed about the entire thing

But how do you learn from the mistakes of your past if you just gloss them over?

And anyway - whats the point of history if your only gonna remember what suits??

englander · 06-04-2006 9:56am

I am English and have been living in ireland for several years.

I was taught absolutely nothing of Irish history in school in England. (I do recall the famine was touched on for half a lesson)

Our history lessons consisted of more about the Romans and how they invaded us, Henry VIII and all his wives and different Kings/Queens of the past, The Vikings etc.

I wasn't even taught much about WWI or WWII.

Irish history is your history here.
To England, Irish history is a very small part of all the history relevant to England.

As someone said above (unfortunatley it is true) that a lot of people in England would not give a flying toss about Republic of Ireland or whats going on in Northern Ireland etc It is nothing to do with them.
(Like Celtic/Rangers games - very few people give a toss in England)

BTW - I have heard Irish people (including Mrs Englander (who happens to be Irish)) use the phrase 'Southern Ireland' before. Ususally in a conversation where I might ask whether the event took place in northern Ireland and they will come back with

"No, that was Southern Ireland"

or

"No that was in the South"

Maybe they are just dumbing it down for the uneducated Brit ?

I could rant (for a very long time) about Irish ignorance towards England that I have come across in Ireland, but I wont.

If you come across 'da Brits' saying something that you dont believe to be right, like 'Southern Ireland' why not see it as an opportunity to educate them rather than playing the daft arse like the OP, confusing people further and coming across like a tit.

Hobbes · 06-04-2006 9:59am

Canis Lupus wrote:

Which books are these as a matter of interest?

School history books. As I recall Ireland was pretty much ignored when it came to British History, instead we were told of the Spinning Jenny, Industrial revolution, Victorian age (when England actually owned most of the world) and other wonders. But anywhere England got up to something nasty or asses handed to them is more or less glossed over.

But as I said revisionism is hardly localisaed to one country. Nearly every country does it.

Macha · 06-04-2006 10:23am

nuttz wrote:

I never said that the opinions of people in the UK didn't matter, yes the UK has and is a good influence on us, as are we (the Irish State)on them.
True, not everyone is balanced enough to see that what they're being taught is biased. And no, I was in a very much non Irish circle of friends.

I think you missed the points of the previous posts.

Ur..no I didn't we're discussing biases in how history is taught in the UK and the effect it has on the opinions of those pupils. I got it

Oh and....

nuttz wrote:

If the majority of the British public want to delude themselves with the above rant so what

Yes you did say that you don't care if the UK have a history education that is biased against Ireland....

On a slight tangent (but still on topic, sort of), I went to Trinity and I remember one of the admin staff referring to Britain as the "main land". :eek:

Louisiana · 06-04-2006 10:28am

WhiteWashMan wrote:

and by the way, the scottish people didnt ceom from ireland. i think you will find that people made their way across landbridge from the continent through the uk and into ireland.
at what point can we claim that these scottish people were once 'irish'? sure if this was the case, the english have a pretty good argument to say that the irish people came from them?

there were definetly Irish settlements in Scotland during the Early Medieval period, one major one being Dalriadh and the irish did bring the language. there were no blood baths in its making though.

Hobbs your right thats most countries like to put a slant on telling they're histories. your slant on 'when England actually owned most of the world' is a total indication that the proper teaching of history could make a big difference in how well cultures interact.

Sleepy · 06-04-2006 10:43am

I don't see how we can complain given the republican biases in our own history books tbh.

fly_agaric · 06-04-2006 11:08am

Hobbes wrote:

But as I said revisionism is hardly localisaed to one country. Nearly every country does it.

Yes - don't the Japanese for e.g. try and gloss over their disgusting wars of aggression and atrocities in Asia? Just a minor detail in the noble Japanese attempt to "liberate" (from the West) and then "civilise" (i.e. impose Japanese language + culture) the rest of the far east.
Failure to face up to the hard facts when educating your young people about their country's history is not a good thing IMO but neither is trying to make them feel burdened with guilt about things their forebears (maybe as close as grandparents for the Japanese say) did in the past.

Anyway - I don't see anything wrong with the phrase "Southern Ireland" or "the South" as used in conversation but addressing a letter there rather than to "Ireland" or "Republic of Ireland" would be a little bit dim.

lodgepole · 06-04-2006 11:12am

englander wrote:

The stuff of reason...

Thank you.

Imagine the horror of a country not being taught another country's history in depth... Your average English person has no interest in Ireland, or Northern Ireland and why should they? And why should we care?

The term "the south" is used extensively. It's not an example of English ignorance anymore than calling the North "the north" is. It's just a reference.

Irish bias towards the English in the year 2006 far outweighs any that the English have towards us. I lived in a house in Canada with two English lads and by virtue of the fact that they celebrated St. Patricks day with us, we decided to celebrate in a similar fashion on St. George's Day. The abuse I got off some Irish people when I told them...

The war with England is over... Time to move on. The only people still causing problems on this island are the ones living here.

Slutmonkey57b · 06-04-2006 11:29am

The content of Irish history books is at least as revisionist as British ones. And for the record, I don't recall being taught an awful lot about Irish history in history class either. In fact I don't recall being taught much of anything in school apart from preparing for exams. As for "British Isles", this is a phrase that refers to landmasses, not political entities, just like we refer to "the continent" instead of listing every country in the landmass of Europe. Its amazing to me, as englander said, that so many Irish people give out about "anti-Irish" bias in england, when in fact english people (rightly) couldn't care less about Ireland, and Irish people are so rabidly abusive towards the English.

WhiteWashMan · 06-04-2006 1:07pm

so should we give ireland back to england and tell them were sorry for making amess of the country?

rubadub · 06-04-2006 1:20pm

Bond-007 wrote:

I get so annoyed when i see it scrawled on letters I receive from the UK.

If you are replying to an english letter, put the address as southern scotland, or eastern wales. They may soon get the message.

Goodshape · 06-04-2006 1:33pm

"Southern Ireland" and even "Northern Ireland" both annoy me quite a bit. I'm from northern Donegal, so where does that fit in? Most "Northern Ireland" lies to the south east of me.

I usually just answer that I'm from the north of the country... if I feel the person deserves it I might add that its still the republic. It may not be politically correct (in the truest sense of the phrase) but I still like to think of this island as one country most of the time.

06-04-2006 1:42pm

I can't see what the big deal is actually. Often I hear Ireland as being described as the South or the North. Irish people do this aswell. I certainly do.

I'm Irish and I live in the Republic of Ireland. I do live in Cork, so southern Ireland isn't going to grind my gears at all.

redmagic wrote:

As i've come to understand that history is written by the conquerors, that my country was taken from its rightful people by the greedy British, just as they took land from others, I have become more and more angry at them. I understand that it was not the fault of the British today, however, they are the ones who should be fessing up and teaching the true history of the the Republic of Ireland and the UK

So you'd prefer to see Irish History dwell on the Irish Noble families that helped the English to settle here.... The Irish themselves did much to help the English take this country from our ancestors.

Its so easy to pass all the blame to England, and ignore our own history in letting this happen.

Boggle wrote:

Quote:
Anyone with a modicum of sense knows better or can't be arsed about the entire thing
But how do you learn from the mistakes of your past if you just gloss them over?

And anyway - whats the point of history if your only gonna remember what suits??

But every country does this.

Have you ever read in depth about what happened in WW2? We hear loads about the atrocities the Germans did, but its rare we hear about Allied Sailors gunning down drowning German Sailors, or the shooting of prisoners after Normandy, or the rapes and Mass graves the Russians did in their march on Berlin...........

Its the same with Ireland. We're taught about the famine, but no effort is made to point out how we could have avoided it.... We're taught about our glorious failures with rebellions, but we don't really teach what rebels did to loyalist families, or the acts against those who sided with the crown.....

I've lost count of the number of times I've read something that either counters what I was taught in school, or wasn't even mentioned at all.

R0ot · 06-04-2006 2:04pm

Well im from the north (geographicly) and i have to cross the border nearly everyday to go to uni in derry. No a common misconception is that its the City of Derry, this is untrue it is the City of Londonderry. But then people that know this make a further mistake by calling it County Londonderry which again is incorrect it is County Derry or Doire. Further more where i come from there is a butt load of resentment to the north (political) but some of this is playful between people. As in a few of my mates in uni joke about have i got electricity down there yet or are we still working on steam. But this is playful as already said.

In regards to the OP's post i never actually knew that they taught that kind of stuff in england but to say the least im not surprised. I have friends of many different religions and i even have a few mates that are in the orange order, but the strangest comment ive ever come across is "There are only 6 counties in ulster" ive never reacted stronger to something in my life, i actually got a lecturer of history to talk to the person in question and finally prove to them that ulster has 9 counties!

The person that i had to use this drastic measures on wouldn't believe a word i said about how ulster isnt 6 counties, i don't know if she was taught that in school or not but thats a disgrace!

"Southern" Ireland... do you mean 'Ireland'?

Comments