Separate uniforms for GR.. Yes/No....

msg11 · 23-04-2014 12:56pm

Hooch wrote: »

Am I right in saying this is how the UK police identify Reserves? (Ignore my ignorance, I'm not too well up on the UK system)

It depends, the SCs wear the same uniform as the PCs and actually can do undercover work and drive cars (no pursuit or blue lights), then again the SCs in England are a well established part of the Police and is more so like a unit like traffic, drugs. Assigned tasks and tasked to help other units as far as I know.

Then there are the PCSOs, again similar to the Reserve but more powers independent patrol. Police style uniform, but with something like you mentioned.

One thing I have noticed from watching the British cops on TV is there seems to be more assistance calls from PCSOs.

Scouser · 23-04-2014 6:22pm

WilcoOut wrote: »

I actually work for a living

:cool:

bluetop · 23-04-2014 8:17pm

msg11 wrote: »

It depends, the SCs wear the same uniform as the PCs and actually can do undercover work and drive cars (no pursuit or blue lights), then again the SCs in England are a well established part of the Police and is more so like a unit like traffic, drugs. Assigned tasks and tasked to help other units as far as I know.

Then there are the PCSOs, again similar to the Reserve but more powers independent patrol. Police style uniform, but with something like you mentioned.

One thing I have noticed from watching the British cops on TV is there seems to be more assistance calls from PCSOs.

PCSO have "NO" powers what so ever they are only support nothing more.

bluetop · 23-04-2014 8:23pm

bluetop wrote: »

PCSO have "NO" powers what so ever they are only support nothing more.

Sorry my mistake was looking at something else to this.

westcoastboy · 25-04-2014 6:32pm

Specials don't get paid, wear the same gear as the Regular police, PCSO's ae full time and get paid,

Yogi Bear · 28-04-2014 11:09am

Thank You

bluetop wrote: »

A lot of FT members have a very high opinion of PT members QUOTE]

Just on this and some of the full time members have said also that there are some very good GR's and they work very well with them.

It's actually nice to hear this and it is very appreciated by GRs'

AlfaDelta · 29-04-2014 9:24pm

bluetop wrote: »

Same uniform and same insignia on the shoulders as GR theirs say SC

A lot of UK forces have dropped the SC insignia and a special can only be identified by the first digit of their collar number. A member of the public would not be able to tell from the uniform the difference between a regular or special constable.

The big difference between a UK special & a Garda Reserve is the lack of powers. A UK special is able to follow through with action if they get abused on the street as they have exactly the same powers as a regular officer. However a Garda Reserve is only able to grin and take it at present, as they don't have any power of arrest for public order offences. I think there would be less of an issue in being identified as a reserve if there was an increase in powers.

One of the most effective uses I saw of specials in the UK was a van driven & crewed exclusively by specials on Friday & Saturday evenings. They would get dispatched to any anti social behaviour calls, such as under age drinking, large groups congregating & making a nuisance etc. which would leave response cars (often crewed by 1 regular + 1 special) to deal with more serious calls. I feel the current situation with the reserves is that we have a large number of people who've had basic training (which should be ongoing), bursting with enthusiasm & the equipment to do the job, who just aren't being utilised effectively.

bluetop · 30-04-2014 1:58pm

AlfaDelta wrote: »

A lot of UK forces have dropped the SC insignia and a special can only be identified by the first digit of their collar number. A member of the public would not be able to tell from the uniform the difference between a regular or special constable.

The big difference between a UK special & a Garda Reserve is the lack of powers. A UK special is able to follow through with action if they get abused on the street as they have exactly the same powers as a regular officer. However a Garda Reserve is only able to grin and take it at present, as they don't have any power of arrest for public order offences. I think there would be less of an issue in being identified as a reserve if there was an increase in powers.

One of the most effective uses I saw of specials in the UK was a van driven & crewed exclusively by specials on Friday & Saturday evenings. They would get dispatched to any anti social behaviour calls, such as under age drinking, large groups congregating & making a nuisance etc. which would leave response cars (often crewed by 1 regular + 1 special) to deal with more serious calls. I feel the current situation with the reserves is that we have a large number of people who've had basic training (which should be ongoing), bursting with enthusiasm & the equipment to do the job, who just aren't being utilised effectively.

Now you have hit the nail on the head, this will never happen until AGS gets fresh Management Blood from outside its ranks, they are now and always will be stuck in time and are very much afraid of change, do people ever wonder why.

Santa Cruz · 30-04-2014 6:41pm

bluetop wrote: »

Now you have hit the nail on the head, this will never happen until AGS gets fresh Management Blood from outside its ranks, they are now and always will be stuck in time and are very much afraid of change, do people ever wonder why.

Why not get a crowd of wannabees that will do the job free altogether and get rid of the full time Gardai? A few Noddy's come in and do 4 hours a week and the next thing they think they are running the show. It's no wonder the full time lads are fed up with them. If management came in from outsde the first thing they would do is to get rid of the four hour a week waste of spacers.

bluetop · 30-04-2014 9:06pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Why not get a crowd of wannabees that will do the job free altogether and get rid of the full time Gardai? A few Noddy's come in and do 4 hours a week and the next thing they think they are running the show. It's no wonder the full time lads are fed up with them. If management came in from outsde the first thing they would do is to get rid of the four hour a week waste of spacers.

And you have first hand experience of this ? as for the 4hrs a week, i have not seen any reserves i know only do a 4hr shift, another person that knows it all just like Raider.

If management came in from outside rest assure the reserves would most likely get the powers they need fit for the purpose intended.

Tell me Santa Cruz are you even a member ?? or just merely a spectator airing your views on here.

redsurfer · 30-04-2014 9:08pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Why not get a crowd of wannabees that will do the job free altogether and get rid of the full time Gardai? A few Noddy's come in and do 4 hours a week and the next thing they think they are running the show. It's no wonder the full time lads are fed up with them. If management came in from outsde the first thing they would do is to get rid of the four hour a week waste of spacers.

I see someone is trying to be the new raider / **** stirrer

AlfaDelta · 30-04-2014 9:48pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

If management came in from outsde the first thing they would do is to get rid of the four hour a week waste of spacers.

I think your crystal ball must be playing up pal. Of course the first thing any manager in their right mind would do would is ditch a cheap resource that's ready to bolster numbers during busy weekend shifts and major events. But don't let reality get in the way of your little rant. Sounds like you really need to vent, so crack on.

Santa Cruz · 01-05-2014 8:44am

AlfaDelta wrote: »

I think your crystal ball must be playing up pal. Of course the first thing any manager in their right mind would do would is ditch a cheap resource that's ready to bolster numbers during busy weekend shifts and major events. But don't let reality get in the way of your little rant. Sounds like you really need to vent, so crack on.

"pal" ? Shouldn't you be out getting a few fares?

msg11 · 01-05-2014 3:29pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Why not get a crowd of wannabees that will do the job free altogether and get rid of the full time Gardai? A few Noddy's come in and do 4 hours a week and the next thing they think they are running the show. It's no wonder the full time lads are fed up with them. If management came in from outsde the first thing they would do is to get rid of the four hour a week waste of spacers.

Chill out, your quite anti reserve. No one wants to take anyone's full time job if anything I would want to be full time myself someday.

I don't think I am running the show personally in fact I think the full timers I go out with do an excellent job and it would be something I would aspire to be, there great role models, they know there stuff and are polite to people.

That shouldn't change, the only changes I would like are a few more basic powers not because I want to start arresting every single person that gives me an evil look but I think I would fit in a bit more.

No management would ever clear out free workers. In fact most jobs are going 15/20 hours a week contracts due to Tax and PRSI been cheaper for the company.

Hooch · 01-05-2014 3:56pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Why not get a crowd of wannabees that will do the job free altogether and get rid of the full time Gardai? A few Noddy's come in and do 4 hours a week and the next thing they think they are running the show. It's no wonder the full time lads are fed up with them. If management came in from outsde the first thing they would do is to get rid of the four hour a week waste of spacers.

Santa Cruz, you're posting in the Garda RESERVE forum calling them waste of spacers??!! Really?

If you cannot be civil and debate issues then you will be banned from the forum. One warning only. I don't have time to babysit people, so please refrain from trolling or the next time you will go on holiday from the forum for a while.

WilcoOut · 09-05-2014 1:36pm

Reserve to be featured on Joe Duffy today apparently

realdanbreen · 09-05-2014 2:18pm

WOW!
I got slated here way back for highlighting the opinion that regular guards have for the reservists.

Two Cent · 09-05-2014 7:49pm

Surprised this hasn't happened before given the treatment alot of Reserve Gardai get from the members they try help!

I wonder will anything happen or change given now that this is public now.

bluetop · 10-05-2014 2:04pm

Two Cent wrote: »

Surprised this hasn't happened before given the treatment alot of Reserve Gardai get from the members they try help!

I wonder will anything happen or change given now that this is public now.

Well fair play for the guy making it public a lot of reserves are getting the same treatment throughout the country, they have no were to turn to do anything about it so they just accept it and try to work thru it, as the person said on the radio been left in the station hours on end is nothing new to reserves, FT refusing to work with them or ignoring them if they are out on a shift with them, they would rather be texting on their phone then talk to them, when they have also been assigned to a mobile with others when they go to get their PPE gear when they come back only to find out they have been left behind becsuse they dont want them in the car or van, i could go on and on from the stories i here from different Reserves around the city and country, after all we do talk just like fulltimers members do, so word does spread.

Maybe now with a new commissioner and justice minister things might change and someone will take charge of the lower rank and file members ie the reserves, as it is now they are left in a state of limbo with nobody knowing what to do with them, as for the public order powers its been over seven months since the up-skilling and still no role out, they should either make the reserves fit for purpose and give them the tools needed or disband them altogether as it is they are in no mans land.

sorry for off topic but as it has been highlighted now on the Joe duffy show lets see will the higher rank and file take any notice.

Santa Cruz · 10-05-2014 2:51pm

I'd be in favour of disbandment myself. Resource the full time service properly with increased recruitment. There are clearly loads of Reserves who want to go full time but due to low recruitment numbers will not get the chance. The Guerin Report has shown that lack of supervision of Probationers was a big part in the problems highlighted. Supervisors have their hands full doing that alone without having to worry about Reserves. This is where the Police Authority will do their job. The present nodding dogs of senior management will do nothing to embarrass their political bosses and will always repeat parrot like "we have adequate resources to do the job" when clearly that is not the case.

Two Cent · 10-05-2014 3:10pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

I'd be in favour of disbandment myself. Resource the full time service properly with increased recruitment. There are clearly loads of Reserves who want to go full time but due to low recruitment numbers will not get the chance. The Guerin Report has shown that lack of supervision of Probationers was a big part in the problems highlighted. Supervisors have their hands full doing that alone without having to worry about Reserves. This is where the Police Authority will do their job. The present nodding dogs of senior management will do nothing to embarrass their political bosses and will always repeat parrot like "we have adequate resources to do the job" when clearly that is not the case.

Well as for been under resourced all I can say is that this is true only for equipment . This is not only happening in AGS but in ALL public bodies!
The reserves does NOT contribute to holding back the purchasing of new equipment . Anyone with an eye to the countries finances can see that this is the reason.

With all that is happening within AGS the one bit of advice I could give the GRA and AGSI is they should have had only one item on their agenda and that was
How are we going to clean up the corruption within AGS , how are we going to restore the publics trust in us!
Yet they propose the reserves to wear a different unform!

We say the political class are detached from society ... Looks like the full time members of AGS are in the same place of self serving egotistic people we crave to disassociate ourselves as a sociaty from

timwynne · 10-05-2014 3:57pm

after listening to the joe duffy show and the reserve caller - I could tell that he was trying so hard to hold back

a lot more to that call than was revealed I reckon- he should have went postal!

bluetop · 10-05-2014 4:01pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

I'd be in favour of disbandment myself. Resource the full time service properly with increased recruitment. There are clearly loads of Reserves who want to go full time but due to low recruitment numbers will not get the chance. The Guerin Report has shown that lack of supervision of Probationers was a big part in the problems highlighted. Supervisors have their hands full doing that alone without having to worry about Reserves. This is where the Police Authority will do their job. The present nodding dogs of senior management will do nothing to embarrass their political bosses and will always repeat parrot like "we have adequate resources to do the job" when clearly that is not the case.

If the upper rank and file done their homework and put in place what is required to make the reserves fit for purpose they would see they have 1400 reserve members wanting to do the job, the recruitment process has only started god only knows with all the changes in the past month what is actually going to happen with that, and then you will only have 300 new members spread that across the whole of the country you might be lucky to get one new member per station, at the present time they have the use of 1400 members who are there ready to do what is required of them, why not use this to their advantage.

If this can work in the Uk and other countries it can work here with a bit of input, its the input that is lacking from above to make it work.

As for the disbandment you would be in favor god knows why as you are not even a member of either FT or PT, goes to show how little of the workings you know.

Santa Cruz · 10-05-2014 5:14pm

bluetop wrote: »

If the upper rank and file done their homework and put in place what is required to make the reserves fit for purpose they would see they have 1400 reserve members wanting to do the job, the recruitment process has only started god only knows with all the changes in the past month what is actually going to happen with that, and then you will only have 300 new members spread that across the whole of the country you might be lucky to get one new member per station, at the present time they have the use of 1400 members who are there ready to do what is required of them, why not use this to their advantage.

If this can work in the Uk and other countries it can work here with a bit of input, its the input that is lacking from above to make it work.

As for the disbandment you would be in favor god knows why as you are not even a member of either FT or PT, goes to show how little of the workings you know.

What evidence do you have to support the last comment? You know nothing about me. You admit that the Reserves are not fit for purpose. Why is that and how much resources have been wasted on them if that is the case?

Two Cent · 10-05-2014 5:52pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

What evidence do you have to support the last comment? You know nothing about me. You admit that the Reserves are not fit for purpose. Why is that and how much resources have been wasted on them if that is the case?

I will transpose your argument in another practable scenario .
AGS is found to be "Not Fit For Purpose"
So, to carry on your idea, do we get rid of AGS ?
Just because something isn't fit for purpose or not working correctly doesn't mean you get rid of it!
You fix it!!
I would say it just that type of argument that has got the organisation of AGS into so much disrepute and turmoil at present.
Instead of the relevant Garda associations looking after what is perceived as "petty self interests", maybe they should tackle the bigger issues like corruption, bullying and a poor work ethic that exists somewhat within all ranks of AGS .
But I think as long as there isn't any great shake up of AGS this attitude that we all see now will sink below the surface to reamerge at a later time again.
Does Donegal come to mind!

timwynne · 10-05-2014 6:06pm

Two Cent wrote: »

I will transpose your argument in another practable scenario .
AGS is found to be "Not Fit For Purpose"
So, to carry on your idea, do we get rid of AGS ?
Just because something isn't fit for purpose or not working correctly doesn't mean you get rid of it!
You fix it!!
I would say it just that type of argument that has got the organisation of AGS into so much disrepute and turmoil at present.
Instead of the relevant Garda associations looking after what is perceived as "petty self interests", maybe they should tackle the bigger issues like corruption, bullying and a poor work ethic that exists somewhat within all ranks of AGS .
But I think as long as there isn't any great shake up of AGS this attitude that we all see now will sink below the surface to reamerge at a later time again.
Does Donegal come to mind!

sure look at how many rep associations AGS has?

its pure segregation - all pulling different ways, its a farce

and they they go an ostracize the volunteer element - the one section of society who supports AGS fully

a rabble

Santa Cruz · 10-05-2014 6:22pm

I have always maintained that the function of GRA and AGSI is to further the salaries and conditions of employments of their members the same as a union. Where they have gone wrong is taking on the responsibilities that management should be doing.

Does timwynne honestly believe that a Superintendents Association will look after the interests of rank and file Gardai?.
As for calling Gardai "rabble" that just display his ignorance.

One of the biggest problems in Donegal was that the Superintendents/Chief Superintendent were changing every few months with a resulting lack of an authority figure in the Division that had a long term interest in policing there rather than getting out of Donegal as fast as they could. We now see the same situation in Baillieboro. Sgt McCabe has had five or six different Superintendents in three years. If Superintendents are appointed to a District they should be obliged to stay there at least four years. The same should apply to all ranks. Gardai know when they join up that they can be transferred anywhere. A number of the posters on this site are obsessed with getting a station near home if they are recruited.

timwynne · 10-05-2014 6:24pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Does timwynne honestly believe that a Superintendents Association will look after the interests of rank and file Gardai?.

As for calling Gardai "rabble" that just his mentality.

thats EXACTLY what I expect of my boss

gardai are not a rabble - our rep associations are

bluetop · 10-05-2014 6:40pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

I have always maintained that the function of GRA and AGSI is to further the salaries and conditions of employments of their members the same as a union. Where they have gone wrong is taking on the responsibilities that management should be doing.

Try feathering their own nest first and foremost, their members interests second.

Just imagine any multinational company having 1400 people on tap free do you think they would be wanting for PPE equipment, yet the AGS could be compared to a multinational company as they employ 13000 people yet they are still short on the ground, and wont utilize the resources they have at their finger tips, shortage of Tetra radios pepper spray all the time, yet there are approx 3000 unused Tetras from members that have left or retired sitting in a closet yet they will not issue RG with these, they would prefer to just leave them there, under H&S all members should be issued with proper PPE equipment and the radios should be part of that, would a FT member go out without a radio "NO" yet reserves are put on the streets without them sure you will be ok your with a FT member, yet you could very easily become separated from them in a chase then what happens....... ?? maybe the upper echelons would be able to answer this, would they be covered by AGS as they had not got the proper equipment fit for purpose.

Two Cent · 10-05-2014 6:42pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

I have always maintained that the function of GRA and AGSI is to further the salaries and conditions of employments of their members the same as a union. Where they have gone wrong is taking on the responsibilities that management should be doing.

Does timwynne honestly believe that a Superintendents Association will look after the interests of rank and file Gardai?.
As for calling Gardai "rabble" that just display his ignorance.

One of the biggest problems in Donegal was that the Superintendents/Chief Superintendent were changing every few months with a resulting lack of an authority figure in the Division that had a long term interest in policing there rather than getting out of Donegal as fast as they could. We now see the same situation in Baillieboro. Sgt McCabe has had five or six different Superintendents in three years. If Superintendents are appointed to a District they should be obliged to stay there at least four years. The same should apply to all ranks. Gardai know when they join up that they can be transferred anywhere. A number of the posters on this site are obsessed with getting a station near home if they are recruited.

Hold on, you are saying that was the biggest problem in Donegal !
I would think the biggest problem was corruption.

Do you know what, sometimes I think AGS is like the Catholic Church
Nobody knew anything of the wrong doings, they were really only isolatied insidents and hea, let's keep this organisation like a boys club!
What happens on tour, stays on tour!

This report and the many others ones yet to be finished will cast AGS into a further dark space.

Let's hope it can emerge from this, transformed to better all citizens.

Remember, Association are maned by Gardai serving and retired!

Maybe they should be reminded of that fact when they come out with
"We will be hiding in the long grass" when refering to the introduction of the Garda reserve!

Looking back at all this stuff, I am amazed it took this long for joe public to cop on or get told of the total mess AGS has become ....

And just a last point , you say associations look after pay and conditions!

Well then they should butt out of the Garda reserve... It's insrinded in the 2005 act...

Or are the associations law makers now, trying to re write the law and go against the law, or worse still disobey the law!
That would never happen!

Separate uniforms for GR.. Yes/No....

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