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Water charges

135

Comments

  • #62
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,299 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    I don't see in the minds of Irish People that IW should be a credible company in the future of this country. It will be a company that is regarded as corrupt, that is self-serving to it's own employees (regardless of the public mood saying no to this every single time) and that is unaccountable to the Irish Government including the committees.

    Staff getting paid bonuses IMO should be the last straw for this company to go to hell and suffer for their deadly sins. Yet Phil Hogan says no to that, with the debacle of the HC and LPT going awry, he doesn't care of any real reform as he loves the temptation of us getting screwed in our finances every time we try to live our lives on this island.

    It should be his remit to go and resign if he wants to along the rest of IW and just let the councils do the work themselves. I am fine with that.

    After that, FG and Labour should go for an election and see how they like it for themselves.


  • #63
    Gotham
    Registered Users Posts: 406 ✭✭Gotham


    So I'm a bit confused on the water charges thing.

    Before all of this, I presume our taxes paid for water, how else would it be funded?
    Now I don't mind paying tax on water, but now it's a fee and we get directly billed for it (instead of it being taken out of our wages).
    So, are we going to charged the fee AND taxed? Because I don't ever expect to see my taxes going down on my payslip...

    I've heard someone complain that this is basically double taxation, so is it?


  • #64
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,078 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    The problem in this country was that in 1977 a fianna fail government led by jack lynch bought an election by promising the removal of residential rates and motor tax.
    And what is worse he made good on his promises.
    Motor tax was bought back, but until the household charge there hasn't really been any residential charges like rates.

    That meant that local government were more screwed and since then commerical rates and central government have been funding local councils.

    And a fair few people reckon that the lack of residential rates was a contributory factor to our property bubble some 30 years later.

    A lot of other countries have had property taxes and water charges, etc but we as a people have always been prone to the idea that your income taxes and indirect taxes pay for all these services as well as policing, health, education and social welfare.


    BTW the 1977 fianna fail election win saw the first time election of such luminaries as bertie ahern, padraig flynn, liam lawlor and charlie mccreevy.
    That was indeed a sad day for this state.


  • #65
    For Reals
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,964 ✭✭✭For Reals


    Sadly, I've seen many posts from people who believe we've been getting 'free' water all these years and the new water charges will not be a double tax, basically paying for what we should have been paying for all along.

    The truth is we've not had a water charge in name for years. The money always had to come from somewhere.

    In my view the water tax will obviously be a double tax, unless, (and I can't see how) they can deduct any charges previously allocated to water supply from borrowings, motor tax or where ever they've been taking it.

    Honestly with all the hype, bluster and bull is it insane to ask why any new charges brought in can't simply go to local Councils so they can improve upon the job they are familiar with and they've been doing for generations rather than starting from scratch with this Irish Water bollocksology? My only answer is they are setting the whole system up for sale down the road.


  • #66
    emo72
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭emo72


    For Reals wrote: »
    Sadly, I've seen many posts from people who believe we've been getting 'free' water all these years and the new water charges will not be a double tax, basically paying for what we should have been paying for all along.

    The truth is we've not had a water charge in name for years. The money always had to come from somewhere.

    In my view the water tax will obviously be a double tax, unless, (and I can't see how) they can deduct any charges previously allocated to water supply from borrowings, motor tax or where ever they've been taking it.

    Honestly with all the hype, bluster and bull is it insane to ask why any new charges brought in can't simply go to local Councils so they can improve upon the job they are familiar with and they've been doing for generations rather than starting from scratch with this Irish Water bollocksology? My only answer is they are setting the whole system up for sale down the road.

    thats totally for real. we could have saved billions by not setting this up, and leaving it to the councils. now, some people will argue with us that its not going to be privatised. that doesnt make sense. the imf wanted it done this way so its a nice convenient lump sum (my favorite term today:() for them to take from us in the future.

    remember its not their money they're spending, its ours, and they dont give a crap about it because its perceived as infinite.


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  • #67
    randomperson12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 226 ✭✭randomperson12


    if you have money get a well dug your own water supply and you control it not the goverment although the water is good from the council treatment areas in some places i cant get it..... plus people are paying too much tax for every thing plus vat


  • #68
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    jmayo wrote: »
    The problem in this country was that in 1977 a fianna fail government led by jack lynch bought an election by promising the removal of residential rates and motor tax.
    And what is worse he made good on his promises.
    Motor tax was bought back, but until the household charge there hasn't really been any residential charges like rates.

    So they need domestic rates AND water rates as well?
    jmayo wrote: »
    That meant that local government were more screwed and since then commerical rates and central government have been funding local councils.

    Commercial rates have been fairly punishing alright. I don't see them coming down any time soon, mind you.
    jmayo wrote: »
    And a fair few people reckon that the lack of residential rates was a contributory factor to our property bubble some 30 years later.

    That and other measures designed to drive the bubble, like tax dispensations in property sector, lax lending rules (or adherence to), etc.
    jmayo wrote: »
    A lot of other countries have had property taxes and water charges, etc but we as a people have always been prone to the idea that your income taxes and indirect taxes pay for all these services as well as policing, health, education and social welfare.

    Well they did up until 2008. Of course, the economy was over-reliant on tax generated through property development and sale, but still.
    jmayo wrote: »
    BTW the 1977 fianna fail election win saw the first time election of such luminaries as bertie ahern, padraig flynn, liam lawlor and charlie mccreevy.
    That was indeed a sad day for this state.

    So in 1977, Fianna Fail making a promise to the electorate, keeping that promise, and cutting taxes, was the epoch of bad politics in the state?


  • #69
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Randomname and Randomperson ...... Are you guys related ? :)


  • #70
    randomperson12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 226 ✭✭randomperson12


    theres alot of randoms around but ive seen about three of them on fouroms


  • #71
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,468 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    randomperson12 wrote: »
    if you have money get a well dug your own water supply and you control it not the goverment although the water is good from the council treatment areas in some places i cant get it..... plus people are paying too much tax for every thing plus vat

    or simply collect it from the roof and store it - it's not like it doesn't rain a lot.
    of course there is still the issue of waste water but I guess the water metres can't cope with measuring out as well as in?


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  • #72
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    raymon wrote: »
    Randomname and Randomperson ...... Are you guys related ? :)


    10 times removed


  • #73
    donegal__road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 953 ✭✭✭donegal__road


    The real Irish Water scandal is the announcement that water charges will be increased if people are not using as much as expected.

    Water metering's initial purpose was for environmental purposes according to the E.U. Meters were meant to encourage people to be more careful with their usage. We can see now clearly that it is instead focused on revenues.


  • #74
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,078 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    So they need domestic rates AND water rates as well?

    Well water rates should pay for water.
    Why should someone who isn't get any public funded water supply pay for it with their domestic rates would be my question.
    Pay for what you use would be my motto.
    Granted with that in mind the supply should be usable and guaranteed and the money raised would be earmarked for improvement of the water system and not into the general kity of government.
    RandomName2 wrote: »
    That and other measures designed to drive the bubble, like tax dispensations in property sector, lax lending rules (or adherence to), etc.

    I did say it was a contributory factor and not the only or major one.
    RandomName2 wrote: »
    So in 1977, Fianna Fail making a promise to the electorate, keeping that promise, and cutting taxes, was the epoch of bad politics in the state?

    That era was the begining of our eventual entry into bailout.
    That era resulted in one of the most dodgy characters ever in Irish politics being rehabilated after his arms trial and his eventual rise to both leadership of fianna fail and leader of this country.
    After that the dodgy types and chancers got promoted.

    Ever heard the adage about the trouble with political manifestos is when they are implemented.

    To me good government is not caving into eveything that the public and vested interests want.
    Good politics is looking at the longer term, but sadly the vast majority of democratically elected politicans only care about the next election.
    It is like caving in to a child in the supermarket or in a toyshop and allowing them have everything they want.


  • #75
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    jmayo wrote: »
    Well water rates should pay for water.
    Why should someone who isn't get any public funded water supply pay for it with their domestic rates would be my question.

    Actually, tbh, I agree with you. However, that isn't what the point of the water charges are, no more than domestic rates were to pay for services local to the person who is paying such rates.
    jmayo wrote: »
    That era was the begining of our eventual entry into bailout.
    That era resulted in one of the most dodgy characters ever in Irish politics being rehabilated after his arms trial and his eventual rise to both leadership of fianna fail and leader of this country.
    After that the dodgy types and chancers got promoted.

    30 years is a fairly broad brush in all fairness. You could equally say that it started with Lemass because that was where Haughey got a shoe-in.
    jmayo wrote: »
    Ever heard the adage about the trouble with political manifestos is when they are implemented.

    To me good government is not caving into eveything that the public and vested interests want. [...]

    It is like caving in to a child in the supermarket or in a toyshop and allowing them have everything they want.

    I've heard this analogy before - I can't honesty think of any more irksome. Thinking that more power should be vested in civil servants not bound by their contractual obligations or public opinion would be akin to... I dunno... squandering €60 million on consultants fees, or telling silly members of the public who were pessimistic about the property bubble to go kill themselves.
    donegal__road wrote: »
    The real Irish Water scandal is the announcement that water charges will be increased if people are not using as much as expected.

    Water metering's initial purpose was for environmental purposes according to the E.U. Meters were meant to encourage people to be more careful with their usage. We can see now clearly that it is instead focused on revenues.

    Could someone explain to me how using a renewable resource damages the environment? Better cut back on the use of wind and solar power too!


  • #76
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,549 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    What's the big deal with this 50 milion? 12 million thrown to rebuild Syria recently.


  • #77
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    donegal__road wrote: »
    The real Irish Water scandal is the announcement that water charges will be increased if people are not using as much as expected.
    No such announcement was made.


  • #78
    raymon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Phoebas wrote: »
    No such announcement was made.

    Yes , I agree.

    There is a carefully worded media campaign in the Independent whose purpose is to misinform and predict terrible things that could possibly happen with no basis for the supposition.

    Doom sells papers!!!

    Of course charges could go up or down or stay the same . We don't know what the initial charge is yet, so it is likely that charges will go up , or down or stay the same.

    If you read the articles carefully they usually refer to " a informed source" or " an insider"

    Of course Phil Hogan is a PR disaster and makes the situation worse.

    Get off the TV Phil ! You know it yourself!


  • #79
    KindOfIrish
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭KindOfIrish


    raymon wrote: »

    Of course charges could go up or down or stay the same . We don't know what the initial charge is yet, so it is likely that charges will go up , or down or stay the same.

    Charges never go down or stay the same!


  • #80
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,468 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Could someone explain to me how using a renewable resource damages the environment? Better cut back on the use of wind and solar power too!

    clean, treated water is not a renewable resource. untreated water is but the processing & cleaning of both input water and output waste water is hardly renewable.

    Lets also not fool ourselves that 100% of waste water is properly treated countrywide and hence does cause significant environmental damage to rivers and the sea in the long term.


  • #81
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    The start up costs appear enormous - €80 million plus

    Hogan seems to have let this spin out of control - his plea that he cannot micro manage does not convince. Shocking casual approach.

    €32 mln for IT - have not seen any breakdown of this.

    The two ladies from his Dept seemed embarrassed to be covering from him.

    If left to them I suspect they would challenge a five for the sake of t he tax payer

    The lawyers and accountants appear to be off a panel formed 3+ years ago.

    Professional fees have been reduced by more than 30% since in the private sector. They should have retendered amongst a wider group of professionals.


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  • #82
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    For Reals wrote: »
    Sadly, I've seen many posts from people who believe we've been getting 'free' water all these years and the new water charges will not be a double tax, basically paying for what we should have been paying for all along.

    The truth is we've not had a water charge in name for years. The money always had to come from somewhere.

    In my view the water tax will obviously be a double tax, unless, (and I can't see how) they can deduct any charges previously allocated to water supply from borrowings, motor tax or where ever they've been taking it.

    Honestly with all the hype, bluster and bull is it insane to ask why any new charges brought in can't simply go to local Councils so they can improve upon the job they are familiar with and they've been doing for generations rather than starting from scratch with this Irish Water bollocksology? My only answer is they are setting the whole system up for sale down the road.

    I'm in agreement here. Although I personally think that they not only set up IW to create jobs for the boys and then sell for peanuts later....I also believe that another reason was our argument that the LPT should also be covering the cost of bringing clean, treated water to our homes as they suggested it was for.
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    or simply collect it from the roof and store it - it's not like it doesn't rain a lot.
    of course there is still the issue of waste water but I guess the water metres can't cope with measuring out as well as in?

    Well it's a pretty safe bet that if the water comes into your house, it's going out your drain eventually, give, or take a few litres a month taken elsewhere and turned into p1ss.


  • #83
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    goz83 wrote: »
    I also believe that another reason was our argument that the LPT should also be covering the cost of bringing clean, treated water to our homes as they suggested it was for.
    The property tax was part of the same troika MOU that brought us water charges, so I really don't think there was a suggestion that property tax was going to pay for water.


  • #84
    RandomName2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Phoebas wrote: »
    The property tax was part of the same troika MOU that brought us water charges, so I really don't think there was a suggestion that property tax was going to pay for water.

    To be fair, that is true - although there has never been a clear indicator of what the property tax is to pay for. Wait! It's the parks!
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    clean, treated water is not a renewable resource. untreated water is but the processing & cleaning of both input water and output waste water is hardly renewable.

    Really? Like filtration or sedimentation? :rolleyes:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_purification
    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    Lets also not fool ourselves that 100% of waste water is properly treated countrywide and hence does cause significant environmental damage to rivers and the sea in the long term.

    Umm.. you know, here's a thought:

    It is predominantly human waste treatment that you are talking about here, and the compounds used to treat such waste. How on earth does using less water reduce the amount of human waste produced? Volume, sure; but more diluted does not equal more waste.

    You may have a point in relation to fertiliser run-off in agricultural use; but that's a slightly different topic.


  • #85
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    Phoebas wrote: »
    The property tax was part of the same troika MOU that brought us water charges, so I really don't think there was a suggestion that property tax was going to pay for water.

    Yeah, but I said I also believe that another reason was our argument that the LPT should also be covering the cost of bringing clean, treated water to our homes

    I don't know when, or where it was suggested, but I know it was Phil Hogan and I think it was on prime time when the whole thing was first being brought into play.


  • #86
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    goz83 wrote: »
    Yeah, but I said I also believe that another reason was our argument that the LPT should also be covering the cost of bringing clean, treated water to our homes

    I don't know when, or where it was suggested, but I know it was Phil Hogan and I think it was on prime time when the whole thing was first being brought into play.

    I presume the interviewer pulled him up on a pretty obvious misstep.


  • #87
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    32 million for IT seems huge for such a small organisation. Shouldn't there be some sort of shared government datacentre for all this stuff, out in the sticks somewhere? Looking at the start up for IT it might be something like this for 300 people in one building:

    Network infrastructure:
    3 LAN switches, 2 WAN routers
    2 firewalls

    WAN
    Dual 300~ megabit links

    Server infra:
    DNS DHCP server
    Active directory server
    Storage dual netapp?

    Printers x20

    Laptops x 200
    desktop x 150

    Wonder how come it's so high, as that is not 32 million, even if it is a 5 year agreement.


  • #88
    donegal__road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 953 ✭✭✭donegal__road


    Phoebas wrote: »
    No such announcement was made.

    According to the Marian Finucane show today, Irish Water did state that they had the power to raise the rates if people conserved their water more.

    Skip to 15:30

    http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A20508246%3A70%3A19-01-2014%3A


  • #89
    emo72
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭emo72


    Tea drinker wrote: »
    32 million for IT seems huge for such a small organisation. Shouldn't there be some sort of shared government datacentre for all this stuff, out in the sticks somewhere? Looking at the start up for IT it might be something like this for 300 people in one building:

    Network infrastructure:
    3 LAN switches, 2 WAN routers
    2 firewalls

    WAN
    Dual 300~ megabit links

    Server infra:
    DNS DHCP server
    Active directory server
    Storage dual netapp?

    Printers x20

    Laptops x 200
    desktop x 150

    Wonder how come it's so high, as that is not 32 million, even if it is a 5 year agreement.

    yeah thats the cheap bit........its the consultants that bring the figure up:(


  • #90
    Phoebas
    Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    donegal__road wrote: »
    According to the Marian Finucane show today, Irish Water did state that they had the power to raise the rates if people conserved their water more.

    Skip to 15:30

    http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=9%3A20508246%3A70%3A19-01-2014%3A

    All I hear are talking heads speculating about what the charging structure is going to be.

    The simple fact is that the CER hasn't made any decisions on any of that yet.

    http://www.cer.ie/water/water-charges


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  • #91
    emo72
    Registered Users Posts: 6,185 ✭✭✭emo72


    Phoebas wrote: »
    All I hear are talking heads speculating about what the charging structure is going to be.

    The simple fact is that the CER hasn't made any decisions on any of that yet.

    http://www.cer.ie/water/water-charges

    hhmmmm...you are right, there is no facts yet. we dont know what the pricing is going to be. however its not unusual for things to be leaked to see how the public react, to soften us up, to get us prepared. a bit of kite flying so to speak.

    there is a precedent with the pricing. the toll roads have a deal that if they dont get the projected business, the taxpayer takes up the shortfall. it would not surprise me one bit if a similar deal is arranged for irish water.

    i could be wrong. thats my best educated guess about how the pricing will be set. i base that on whats gone before. unless you can see a major shift in our public servants to look after our best interests. i doubt that.


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