Ariel Sharon "close to the end"

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 11-01-2014 10:35pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Calm down.

Read some books on the six-day war and the Yom Kippur war, there's no comparison between his military skills and Mladic.

Sabra and Shatila took real military skill!
The man was, and always will be, a butcher who should have been tried by an International war crimes tribunal.

Some more of great "military" prowess as a field commander:
Sharon began his military career at a young age, when he became involved in fighting with the Israeli Haganah, leading commando units specialising in behind-the-lines raids and forcing Palestinians to flee their homes.
In August 1953, Sharon founded and led the infamous Unit 101, which carried out a series of terror raids across the Israeli borders into refugee camps, villages and Bedouin encampments.

In September 1953, he led the Unit 101 in an attack on Bedouins in demilitarised Al Auja (a 145 square km juncture at the western Negev-Sinai frontier), killing an unknown number.

October 14, 1953, Sharon led Unit 101 into an attack on the village of Qibya in Jordan. Under his command, Israeli soldiers moved about in the village blowing up buildings, firing into doorways and windows with automatic weapons and throwing hand grenades, killing 69 civilians (mostly women and children). He later claimed he believed that the demolished houses had been empty of inhabitants, but according to the UN observer who inspected the scene, “One story was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled across the threshold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them.”

In 1971 - The “Pacification” of Gaza. Under the euphemistic title the “Pacification of Gaza,” Sharon imposed a brutal policy of repression, blowing up houses, bulldozing large tracts of refugee camps, imposing severe collective punishments and imprisoning hundreds of young Palestinians. Numerous civilians were killed or unjustly imprisoned, their houses demolished and the whole area was effectively transformed into a jail.

Sand · 11-01-2014 11:18pm

I think on balance he is no worse than Yasser Arafat. Both of them engaged in forms of conflict that were at best questionable, both of them failed to negotiate a lasting peace. Both of them need to be judged in the context of the other. Many welcomed and rejoiced in Arafats death. Many will welcome and rejoice in Sharon's.

Gringo180 · 12-01-2014 12:22am

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Nah, it's trendy to hate Israel but love Cuba!

Or maybe its just common sense?

johnnyskeleton · 12-01-2014 12:58am

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

Sabra and Shatila took real military skill!
The man was, and always will be, a butcher who should have been tried by an International war crimes tribunal.

Some more of great "military" prowess as a field commander:
Sharon began his military career at a young age, when he became involved in fighting with the Israeli Haganah, leading commando units specialising in behind-the-lines raids and forcing Palestinians to flee their homes.
In August 1953, Sharon founded and led the infamous Unit 101, which carried out a series of terror raids across the Israeli borders into refugee camps, villages and Bedouin encampments.

In September 1953, he led the Unit 101 in an attack on Bedouins in demilitarised Al Auja (a 145 square km juncture at the western Negev-Sinai frontier), killing an unknown number.

October 14, 1953, Sharon led Unit 101 into an attack on the village of Qibya in Jordan. Under his command, Israeli soldiers moved about in the village blowing up buildings, firing into doorways and windows with automatic weapons and throwing hand grenades, killing 69 civilians (mostly women and children). He later claimed he believed that the demolished houses had been empty of inhabitants, but according to the UN observer who inspected the scene, “One story was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled across the threshold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them.”

In 1971 - The “Pacification” of Gaza. Under the euphemistic title the “Pacification of Gaza,” Sharon imposed a brutal policy of repression, blowing up houses, bulldozing large tracts of refugee camps, imposing severe collective punishments and imprisoning hundreds of young Palestinians. Numerous civilians were killed or unjustly imprisoned, their houses demolished and the whole area was effectively transformed into a jail.

So at a time when both sides were engaging in cross border raids, unfortunately both killing more civilians than combatants, it is still Palestine good Israel bad? Or maybe, just maybe, the situation is a bit more complicated.

Tell me something - if the militant wing of the Conservative party in the UK started lobbing rockets into Ireland and the conservative government just said "whoops, it's beyond our control", what would your response be?

johnnyskeleton · 12-01-2014 1:01am

Gringo180 wrote: »

Or maybe its just common sense?

Common sense would be looking at situations of conflict dispassionately and from the point of view of being a neutral observer. Assuming everything Israel does is wrong, and forgiving others more easily doesn't fit into that.

johnnyskeleton · 12-01-2014 1:02am

Sand wrote: »

I think on balance he is no worse than Yasser Arafat. Both of them engaged in forms of conflict that were at best questionable, both of them failed to negotiate a lasting peace. Both of them need to be judged in the context of the other. Many welcomed and rejoiced in Arafats death. Many will welcome and rejoice in Sharon's.

The important point, which seems to be lost on some posters, is that while he didn't achieve peace, he at least tried.

paulmcshane · 12-01-2014 1:07am

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So at a time when both sides were engaging in cross border raids, unfortunately both killing more civilians than combatants, it is still Palestine good Israel bad? Or maybe, just maybe, the situation is a bit more complicated.

Tell me something - if the militant wing of the Conservative party in the UK started lobbing rockets into Ireland and the conservative government just said "whoops, it's beyond our control", what would your response be?

He wasn't trying to justify what the Palestinians have done. The thread is about Sharon. Can you deny any of what the above poster mentioned about Sharon? The targeting and murdering of women and children is horrific.....and he got away with it.

wes · 12-01-2014 1:09am

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The important point, which seems to be lost on some posters, is that while he didn't achieve peace, he at least tried.

Laughable claim:

Ariel Sharon: Peacemaker, hero... and butcher

He was respected in his eight years of near-death, with no sacrilegious cartoons to damage his reputation; and he will, be assured, receive the funeral of a hero and a peacemaker. Thus do we remake history

--SNIP--
He it was who had led Israel's catastrophic invasion of Lebanon three months earlier, lying to his own prime minister that his forces would advance only a few miles across the frontier, then laying siege to Beirut – at a cost of around 17,000 lives. But by slowly re-ascending Israel's dangerous political ladder, he emerged as prime minister, clearing Jewish settlements out of the Gaza Strip and thus, in the words of his own spokesman, putting any hope of a Palestinian state into "formaldehyde".
--SNIP--

--SNIP--
By the time of his political and mental death in 2006, Sharon – with the help of the 2001 crimes against humanity in the US and his successful but mendacious claim that Arafat backed bin Laden – had become, of all things, a peacemaker, while Arafat, who made more concessions to Israeli demands than any other Palestinian leader, was portrayed as a super-terrorist. The world forgot that Sharon had opposed the 1979 peace treaty with Egypt, voted against a withdrawal from southern Lebanon in 1985, opposed Israel's participation in the 1991 Madrid peace conference – and the Knesset plenum vote on the Oslo agreement in 1993, abstained on a vote for a peace with Jordan the next year and voted against the Hebron agreement in 1997. Sharon condemned the manner of Israel's 2000 retreat from Lebanon and by 2002 had built 34 new illegal Jewish colonies on Arab land.
--SNIP--

The only Israeli leader who was serious about peace was Rabin (he was murdered for his trouble), the rest at best played lip service, and in the case of Sharon, he opposed it every step of the way. Sharon did not want peace, and did everything within his power to make sure if never happened.

Gringo180 · 12-01-2014 1:12am

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Common sense would be looking at situations of conflict dispassionately and from the point of view of being a neutral observer. Assuming everything Israel does is wrong, and forgiving others more easily doesn't fit into that.

You said the reason to hate Israel is because its "trendy" thats just a ridiculous statement to be fair. The reason there hated is because they are an apartheid state.

AlanS181824 · 12-01-2014 1:18am

R.I.P to him.

Nodin · 12-01-2014 6:06am

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The important point, which seems to be lost on some posters, is that while he didn't achieve peace, he at least tried.

....when?

Nodin · 12-01-2014 6:08am

Sand wrote: »

I think on balance he is no worse than Yasser Arafat. Both of them engaged in forms of conflict that were at best questionable, both of them failed to negotiate a lasting peace. Both of them need to be judged in the context of the other. Many welcomed and rejoiced in Arafats death. Many will welcome and rejoice in Sharon's.

Only one of them was colonising another peoples land, however.

Mr.Micro · 12-01-2014 1:19pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Common sense would be looking at situations of conflict dispassionately and from the point of view of being a neutral observer. Assuming everything Israel does is wrong, and forgiving others more easily doesn't fit into that.

Logic does not often apply when dealing with Israel and it's leaders. When others do wrong against Israel, it's a a big deal, with big repercussions. When Israel does wrong it's no big deal. It ignores international law and does as it likes.

Brown Bomber · 13-01-2014 11:36pm

Sorry if this has been posted already, but I wanted to share the best obit that I've read of Sharon. It's by Max Blumenthal in the Nation.

How Ariel Sharon Shaped Israel’s Destiny

In a bloody career that spanned decades, he destroyed entire cities and presided over the killing of countless civilians.

http://www.thenation.com/article/177883/how-ariel-sharon-shaped-israels-destiny#

Sacksian · 14-01-2014 10:18am

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Sorry if this has been posted already, but I wanted to share the best obit that I've read of Sharon. It's by Max Blumenthal in the Nation.

Well, if anyone should be able to write an even-handed piece about anything involving Israel, it's Max Blumenthal.

Nodin · 15-01-2014 10:53pm

"A curriculum to teach students about former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, published by the Education Ministry in the wake of his death, likens the former Israeli leader to Moses and contains no mention of the controversial episodes in his life.
The material, intended for fourth- to ninth-grade classes, also asks students to compare Peres’ eulogy of Sharon with King David’s lament for Saul and Jonathan"
http://www.haaretz.com/news/.premium-1.568624

Bizarre, to say the least.

Fred Swanson · 15-01-2014 11:01pm

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Nodin · 15-01-2014 11:14pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

....to be honest, yes, though perhaps remaining light on detail, and using the word "controversial" a lot. This, however, is a bit mad.

Eggy Baby! · 15-01-2014 11:22pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Theres a major difference between omitting the negatives and idolising the man

steddyeddy · 16-01-2014 1:27am

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Of course I do. How else would they prevent their kids from repeating the mistakes of the past. You said yourself he did dodgy things why shouldn't the israeli kids know the truth?

Ariel Sharon "close to the end"

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