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Belief in God versus the Evolutionist's put down
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Nonsense. I feel true love & I truly love people. I am simply saying that I got there by choice. I went through all that teenage stuff and it wasn't true love at all. It doesn't come close to what I have now with my wife.
The funny thing is that we have hundreds of youth from non-Christian homes in our church. My wife and I go away camping with them each year. Again and again they come to us and ask for advice about relationships and marriage because the love they see in our marriage is much more real than what they see in their parents' lives. Our 19-year old daughter has told me that she wants a marriage like ours.
Good for you, but your enormous success still doesn't make it the only possible option, I'm afraid. My grandparents, who eloped in a fit of passion when they were 17 and 15, were still together on loving terms 60 years later.
That you can love from an initial position of decision is obvious, since arranged marriages generally fail at the same rate as other marriages. That does not make it the only option, or even the best option, nor even the normal option for Christians.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Is it fair to say that this points to the need for people to have a common understanding of what they are getting into. In my own case, we'd both share a picture of marriage based as an irreversable step - which I'll freely admit comes from our Catholic heritage. Because we have that common picture of what it is, we find we are in the situation that we both desire.That you can love from an initial position of decision is obvious, since arranged marriages generally fail at the same rate as other marriages.
Equally, its possible to imagine that people who see arranged marriage as normal and accept the idea that they'll be partnered with someone that their family chooses as compatable will actually get behind that union. If they each fulfill their partner's expectations, clearly that would be the basis for a lasting relationship.0 -
I am sure you have a very happy marriage PDN and you seem like you are a very loving person but in the words of take that "how deep is your love?"...:D
sorry i had to throw that in.
I said in an earlier post that you did truly love your wife before you made the choice to love her. Would you disagree with this? If yes then tell me was there ever a point after all the lusting and stuff where you were both on a couch staring into eachothers eyes, completely at peace, all there is is you and her and a sense something amazing, and then!! something engulfs, a realisation about something....possibly love? If sooooo......Did this by chance happen a milli second before you made the choice to love her???
I do believe compatability is quite important to finding the perfect one but i dont think people could possibly know who is most compatable judging on a list of likes and dislikes. The human soul goes deep and it is a clicking that occurs "unknowingly" and "by surprise" between two humans that i would feel is when love emmerges...nothing logical or calculable at all.0 -
There should be an equivalent of Godwin's Law to ban anything connected to the Bee Gees. Those three ugly blokes with high voices must surely be more detrimental to intellectual discourse than one puny German corporal?I am sure you have a very happy marriage PDN and you seem like you are a very loving person but in the words of take that "how deep is your love?"...:D
No, I made the choice to love her first. I was attracted to her, but attraction is nothing like love - and as a normal red-blooded young man I was attracted to just about every female that wasn't absolutely hideous.I said in an earlier post that you did truly love your wife before you made the choice to love her. Would you disagree with this? If yes then tell me was there ever a point after all the lusting and stuff where you were both on a couch staring into eachothers eyes, completely at peace, all there is is you and her and a sense something amazing, and then!! something engulfs, a realisation about something....possibly love? If sooooo......Did this by chance happen a milli second before you made the choice to love her???
I believe I am simply being more honest than most posters here. We all have criteria in our head that we use to assess whether someone is worthy of our attentions. Jared Diamond discusses this quite well in The Third Chimpanzee. The notion of involuntarily 'falling in love' is simply a romanticising of this process. It seems to me that many of the atheists here, while pretending to be more rational than Christians, desperately want to cling onto this last little shred of magical belief.
Some of my Indian Christian friends insist that arranged (not forced) marriages tend to be much more loving and long-lasting among Christians than other marriages. Of course that may be because they occur more in societies where adultery and divorce are much less likely to be tolerated.Scofflaw wrote:That you can love from an initial position of decision is obvious, since arranged marriages generally fail at the same rate as other marriages. That does not make it the only option, or even the best option, nor even the normal option for Christians.
We should remember that the idea of marrying because people are in love has not been the norm for most of human society throughout history. Even in Western Europe it was much more common for people to choose their spouse by various criteria (often finance being uppermost) and then the happiness of the marriage depended on learning to love one's spouse.0 -
Love is so much more than an emotion. It is a choice, and emotions follow that choice.
You have it exactly the wrong way around. Love is an emotion, and this emotion effects what our choices are.We are not mere animals that are controlled by impulses and emotions.
Why do you and BC keep saying that? No one is claiming we are or should be controlled by our impulses (I assume you mean sex) or our emotions.
What we are saying is that we don't control our emotions. We still control our actions
This seems to be a really difficult concept for you to get and TBH I've no idea why. If you and BC would just listen to the analogies people have using I'm sure you would understand straight away.
For example, no one controls what they think is funny. No one can decide to find something funny that they otherwise wouldn't. You either find something funny or you don't.
Now say your girlfriend makes a lame joke that you don't think is particular funny. Now you can't decide if you find it funny or not. You just don't find it funny, to you it is a bad joke. You can of course decide how you are going to react to her.
You could decide to just say "That wasn't funny". That might hurt her feelings and its a bit rude. You might give a smile, as if to say "Sweetie that was a lame joke, but you are cute for trying". Or you might give a fake laugh and try to make it seem real.
None of that changes the fact that you don't find the joke funny and there is nothing you can do to change that. But equally that in no way means you are "controlled" by that emotion, or lack of emotion.You can choose to be afraid
TBH PDN if I didn't know better I would swear, like Robin, that you are trolling.
We choose to be afraid? Are you serious? Who in their right mind would choose to be afraid of something if they could simply not choose to be afraid of something.
You can buy a T-Shirt in America supporting the NY Fire Department that has the following on the back referencing 9/11
"Were you afraid?"
"Terrified"
"They why did you do it"
"Because its my job"
Now I don't know if that is a real quote (I hope it is), but the point is the same regardless. The fire fighters at 9/11 did what they did despite the terror. They were not simple "not afraid", while everyone else was. They were afraid like everyone else. Of course they were. You would have had to have been insane not to be afraid They did what they did despite being afraid. That is why they are heroes
The idea that they decided in the truck on the way down to the towers to be afraid, when they could have decided not to be afraid, is utterly ridiculous.Nonsense. I feel true love & I truly love people. I am simply saying that I got there by choice.
Well PDN, that isn't "love" as I would understand it or have experienced it, nor I think as most people here would.
There is a difference between feeling the emotion, and simply going through the motions that one associates with that emotion. You can choose to go through the motions, but you can't choose to feel the emotion behind that, in the same way that you can pretend you really like caviar but you can't force yourself to actually enjoy it0 -
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Your arguments by analogy are particularly unconvincing. You can control what you find funny, or indeed what taste you like. Have you never heard the expression "an acquired taste" or "an acquired sense of humour"? Do you really think any one naturally likes the taste of Guinness or Marmite?For example, no one controls what they think is funny. No one can decide to find something funny that they otherwise wouldn't. You either find something funny or you don't.
Your 9/11 illustration is a poor analogy because most fear is of stuff that will never happen. For example, after I watched 'Jaws' I was afraid to swim in the sea. By reminding myself of some basic facts (no Great White Sharks in this area, more chance of getting killed crossing the road etc) I chose not to be afraid. A case of rational thinking controlling emotion.
Poor you.Well PDN, that isn't "love" as I would understand it or have experienced it, nor I think as most people here would.
This thread is a strange inversion of the usual pattern. A theist is arguing for rationality and logic whereas atheists are insisting on submitting to a magical force.0 -
No, I made the choice to love her first. I was attracted to her, but attraction is nothing like love - and as a normal red-blooded young man I was attracted to just about every female that wasn't absolutely hideous.
I believe I am simply being more honest than most posters here. We all have criteria in our head that we use to assess whether someone is worthy of our attentions. Jared Diamond discusses this quite well in The Third Chimpanzee. The notion of involuntarily 'falling in love' is simply a romanticising of this process. It seems to me that many of the atheists here, while pretending to be more rational than Christians, desperately want to cling onto this last little shred of magical belief.
Perhaps, although personally I was mostly rejecting the claims that conscious selection according to explicit criteria was the only path that leads to real love, and that Christians were somehow specially blessed in their ability to feel such love.Some of my Indian Christian friends insist that arranged (not forced) marriages tend to be much more loving and long-lasting among Christians than other marriages. Of course that may be because they occur more in societies where adultery and divorce are much less likely to be tolerated.
Other analyses have suggested that where society is both materialistic and conservative, arranged marriages are both more common and more stable, the stability of marriages on average being largely a matter of social convention.We should remember that the idea of marrying because people are in love has not been the norm for most of human society throughout history. Even in Western Europe it was much more common for people to choose their spouse by various criteria (often finance being uppermost) and then the happiness of the marriage depended on learning to love one's spouse.
That is, of course, quite true. The current rejection of such criteria has not, as far as I know, had much impact on either the stability or the happiness of the average marriage.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Your arguments by analogy are particularly unconvincing. You can control what you find funny, or indeed what taste you like. Have you never heard the expression "an acquired taste" or "an acquired sense of humour"? Do you really think any one naturally likes the taste of Guinness or Marmite?
Your 9/11 illustration is a poor analogy because most fear is of stuff that will never happen. For example, after I watched 'Jaws' I was afraid to swim in the sea. By reminding myself of some basic facts (no Great White Sharks in this area, more chance of getting killed crossing the road etc) I chose not to be afraid. A case of rational thinking controlling emotion.
Even so, I'll bet if something bumps your foot under the water you jump like the rest of us!This thread is a strange inversion of the usual pattern. A theist is arguing for rationality and logic whereas atheists are insisting on submitting to a magical force.
Feh - we're all just arguing our preferred brand of magical force, really. Your wife was chosen for you by God, Wicknight's will be selected by unconscious criteria.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Your arguments by analogy are particularly unconvincing. You can control what you find funny, or indeed what taste you like. Have you never heard the expression "an acquired taste" or "an acquired sense of humour"? Do you really think any one naturally likes the taste of Guinness or Marmite?
You can choose to drink Guinness until you like it, that isn't the same thing at all. You body will eventually become used to the chemical reactions it causes, like with coffee.
But again you are not deciding to like coffee. The coffee is physically altering your brain chemistry. You can decide to do this if you like, knowing what will happen (for example starting to smoke). But the actual process is chemical and out of your control.
For example if it was possible to simply decide not to like coffee or alchohal or cigarettes you would have no alcoholics or people who need a cup of coffee in the morning to function in work.
So you decided to be afraid of swimming in the sea?Your 9/11 illustration is a poor analogy because most fear is of stuff that will never happen. For example, after I watched 'Jaws' I was afraid to swim in the sea.
No of course you didn't.
You were afraid of swimming in the sea because you were scared. You didn't decide to be scared.By reminding myself of some basic facts (no Great White Sharks in this area, more chance of getting killed crossing the road etc) I chose not to be afraid.
You didn't choose to not be afraid. You rationally considered the odds of a shark attacking you and because that was so low you were no longer afraid because of that knowledge
Fear is not something we choose to feel or not feel. Our rational brain can attempt to calm our emotions. But again that is not the same thing at all.A case of rational thinking controlling emotion.
If you could control your emotion in the first place you wouldn't need to rationally consider the odds of a shark attacking you.
You would simply not be afraid, irrespective of whether a shark is likely to attack you
You only rationally considered the likelihood of an attack because you cannot simply stop being scared. You have to convince yourself that there is nothing to be scared about. And then you will stop being scared, assuming you are convincing.
I was about to say the same thing. But I suppose if you are content with what you call "love", that is all that matters.Poor you.A theist is arguing for rationality and logic whereas atheists are insisting on submitting to a magical force.
Its not magical, it is simple beyond our rational control. Love is an emotional response, one that is no doubt electrons in the brain, but none the less still out of our rational control. Which adds to its wonder I guess. If we could decide our emotions we would probably all end up simply being robots.
As I said "love" isn't a life style choice.0 -
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Ok if god created everything why did he create cancer? What is the design plan there? Is god punishing people? If god designed us to mutate fine. I think you can claim there is an intelligence to existence but you can't really claim god created everything in 6 days.
If you believe the theory that god designed all things then you have to ask why do such a bad job?
I can accept a theory that he set things in motion like baking a cake but not that all individual things were designed specifically. I have heard some people claim that mutation and disease are the work of the devil. Which is just belief I can't follow. In general the theories of gods tend to follow some sort of human reactions with little intelligence of superior beings. The Roman,Greek,Norse tribal gods for example. Then the Jewish god seems to be full of hate and anger and somehow becomes a god who is all wise and planned out that were can barely comprehend. It seems a lot more logical to see that as people understood more the concept of the old style gods lost popularity and the more difficult gods to discredit remained. That combined with tyrannical rule destroying old ways.0 -
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