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Debaptism

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  • 07-06-2007 1:10pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭


    http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2007/06/debaptism
    MILAN -- Disgruntled Italian Catholics are increasingly turning to the internet to leave the Church by getting "debaptized" -- but typically, the Pope isn't making the process web friendly.

    Cyberspace is one of the few places lapsed Catholics can get a copy of the formal letter called "actus defectionis" that is required by Church officials to leave the faith.

    One such letter, downloaded 30,000 times, is the main attraction at the Italian Union of Rationalists and Agnostics, or UAAR, website.

    The 2,000-member group, which won a David-and-Goliath legal battle over debaptism in 2002, has no brick-and-mortar office. It relies on e-mail and the occasional phone call to keep things moving.

    "We see a traffic spike every time the Pope says something unpopular," said UAAR site manager Raffaele Carcano, who is also a banker, adding that the site recently hit new heights during a recent fray over civil unions.

    Church officials, however, view debaptism as a matter of bookkeeping. Priests are incapable of washing off the holy water that tots were dipped in for the rite.

    The actus defectionis must be snail-mailed to the parish where baptism took place. Priests note in the register that the flock member has permanently strayed -- and that's one less believer to bulk up statistics.

    There are no statistics on how many Italians have defected. Proponents claim thousands, the Church maintains a handful -- and according to at least one Vaticanista, Salvatore Mazza of the Catholic daily newspaper Avvenire, debaptists can, at best, "hope to become a niche phenomena."

    Still, there's enough buzz around debaptism to prompt the Vatican to publish a legislative text reminding the former faithful that they are committing an act of "apostasy, heresy or schism."

    The pool is a potentially large one: 90 percent of Italians are baptized but only a third are churchgoers.

    Debaptists have their anti-evangelizing work cut out for them. Reaching computer-shy lapsed Catholics may be the biggest challenge -- just 31 percent of Italians regularly use (.pdf) the internet.

    And, although the internet is great for disseminating information, downloading the letter doesn't absolve one from the infuriating Bel Paese bureaucracy, as Luca S. discovered.

    Luca, a 28-year-old who works in sales, downloaded the letter from UAAR's site and mailed it. His parish priest in Verona, who had never debaptized anyone before, demanded a face-to-face meeting.

    Describing himself as "kind of a coward and pretty lazy," but unwilling to belong to a Church that didn't represent him, Luca made an appointment. He told the priest he had never been a believer, so why belong to the flock? "A flock that included me as soon as I was born without my consent," he said.

    The priest noted Luca had formally left the religion in the baptism register, then Luca signed his name and left.

    For Carcano, 40, the battle continues. Judging from the e-mail he gets, Luca's experience is fairly common -- priests often insist on a face-to-face interview. UAAR recently uploaded a new letter with stronger legal jargon intended to dissuade priests from accepting requests by mail and encouraging them to notify relatives of the debaptism.

    "My parents didn't take it well," Luca said. "They were concerned about what people would think. But they've since forgotten about the whole thing. In a lot of families this would be seen as an immense tragedy. My mother was upset because I can't get married in church now."

    Though UAAR works mostly remotely, members meet offline to organize protests and other initiatives, including an upcoming group debaptism for the non-internet savvy.

    This has worried the Vatican so much it has put out an offical statement.

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    I always found it rather bizarre that "Catholics" who don't believe in the faith any more (or ever, having being baptised as children) still go to the trouble of officially removing themselves from the religion


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Frankly I like the idea of making it official. According to their records I'm a fully active member of their church, I really don't like that.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Zillah wrote:
    According to their records I'm a fully active member of their church, I really don't like that.
    So it's just a stats thing really?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Right, 3rd time trying to post this, but Boards is in a mood today :(

    I don't see the point in taking my name off any register for the simple reason that I assume that if I meet a girl stupid/desperate enough to marry me, that she will quite likely want a fancy church wedding. If I get debaptised, then I can't do that. Simple as that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 413 ✭✭8kvscdpglqnyr4


    humanji wrote:
    I don't see the point in taking my name off any register for the simple reason that I assume that if I meet a girl stupid/desperate enough to marry me, that she will quite likely want a fancy church wedding. If I get debaptised, then I can't do that. Simple as that.
    Not true. I've renounced my Catholic "faith" in an official letter to the diocesan secretary in Galway. I got a reply from him and from my parish priest saying it had been noted on the baptisimal records in my home parish.

    I'm getting married in a Catholic Church this summer.
    As an atheist, I had to get dispensation from the bishop to marry in a catholic church (I think the official term is "disparity of cult"!!!). But all is OK and the church cermony is going ahead.

    "disparity of cult" ... interesting that the RCC use the word CULT!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Hmm, didn't know that. I suppose maybe it's a Catholic conspiracy of disinformation :D

    Sadly, if I do ever get married, I'd like to get married in the Church my parents tied the knot in. And with it being in the Vatican, I think it may be best not tto chance it :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    So it's just a stats thing really?

    Not necessarily.

    As far as I can remember, Italy is one of those nations that have a "religious tax" (as is Switzerland, my current domicile).

    If you're a registered member of a religion, as far as I know your money goes to your religion. If you're not a registered member, it gets treated differently - you may, in Italy, actually have a say in where it goes.

    So while in Ireland, it may not be such a deal, if someone gets p1ssed enough with the church that they want out in some mainland European nations, they're almost certainly p1ssed enough that they don't want their hard-earned sheckels going to said church even if they have to pay them regardless.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    bonkey wrote:
    As far as I can remember, Italy is one of those nations that have a "religious tax" (as is Switzerland, my current domicile).

    Germany also has a religious tax. Its understandable with so many different smaller Christian churches in many parts of europe that taxation and official opt outs are normal practise.

    In Catholic Ireland officially leaving is probably more of an angry atheist thing. I can appreciate the rebellious kick than many may get out of doing it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭rockbeer


    humanji wrote:
    I don't see the point in taking my name off any register for the simple reason that I assume that if I meet a girl stupid/desperate enough to marry me, that she will quite likely want a fancy church wedding. If I get debaptised, then I can't do that. Simple as that.

    Sounds like a strong argument in favour of debaptism to me - Sorry dear, I just can't have a church wedding, I'm debaptized you see :D


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,515 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Church Weddings are over rated awyway. I have a friend getting married on a yacht this weekend.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,437 ✭✭✭Crucifix


    You can always get dedebatised I'm sure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,986 ✭✭✭Red Hand


    Its a pity that they don't have a ceremony associated with it. Like sprinkling them with unblessed, deionised water, and then getting a hair-dryer, and blowing off the water...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    As long as you didn't have to wear that white, pleated dress thingie again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,457 ✭✭✭Cactus Col


    Thaedydal wrote:

    That read to me more like the Vatican was clarifying the situation, rather than actually being worried about it. The problem seems to be that the clergy don't know too much about "debaptising" a person.


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