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Maths postgrad in trinity vs courses in UCD

  • 20-12-2014 11:26am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 39


    Hi guys,
    I appreciate this is going to be a long post but i would really be grateful for your opinions/experiences with what I have to say as I am seriously stressed and desperate at this stage! Its also worth noting that i have done tonnes of research but am even more confused if anything.
    I am seriously considering the three courses i mentioned above however i cannot make a final decision. I am quite mathematically brained and hope to get about 590 points in the leaving this summer. I would love a career that would command a challenge and also offer a significant salary (please dont tell me its not all about the money im 100% aware of that and that college is for studying something that interests you) as i am quite set on the math industry. Id love to be a quant and work with stocks but i also think id like to be an actuary. Also im 99% certain that i want to emigrate so a degree (preferably just an undergrad) that can take me to the likes of the US, Canada or Australia is a must!

    My main worries are:
    1. economics and finance seems to be a great course but im not convinced that the jobs the graduates get are really that good despite the big names involved. Also im worried that abroad unfortunately Trinity is regarded farrrr superior to UCD which does have an effect on an employer deciding between two equally qualified candidates imo. However im really interested in this course as a lot of high achieving students in the CAO apply for this course and id love to truly know why!

    2. I do actuarial maths in UCD and end up getting my exemptions but dont get a job with a a great salary as i expected (€100k+) after fully qualified ofc, and i also worry that it will be difficult going abroad with this degree. Also i am aware that i will have to study very hard for several years but how much will i genuinely have to study if im good at taking exams and will the studying cease once qualified? Is the fus about actuaries really warranted?


    3. Maths in TCD will obviously open more paths (or will it?) but im petrified that this degree will be extremely difficult to do well in and that the content wont6 be of interest to me. Although ive only been to UCD once, i am in love with Trinity, the location, buildings, library and ultimately the reputation is so tempting (Why not go for the better college if you can) Also im aware TCD us 15th or whatever in the world but thats just for research and i heard some of the lecturers are appalling. basically is the course in whole too difficult and are the prospects greater? also is there any opportunity for internships and do TCD try help you get jobs or have good partners etc.

    AGAIN I STRESS i am really desperate and grateful for your time in helping me! Are there any other courses you would recommend studying? I dont have the money to go to the UK to study and i want a 3 or 4 max year course that will take me around the world with a good job, money and work life balance. Dont bother replying id you're going to lecture (excuse the pun) me on how everyone wants all that but i can achieve a really good LC ( 625 isnt impossible it is attainable if i put my head down) and think itd be a waste for me not to grab this opportunity! THANK YOU SO MUCH


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭sganyfx


    Maths and Economics is basically a feeding course to Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan e.t.c. all your typical Wall Street and City banks, they pay rather nicely... It all keeps all the options for you as you have mathematics and economics in your degree, so if you specialise in 4th year you can do a masters in either one of them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭LLMMML


    It doesn't really matter what degree you do that much. All these financial companies take science and tech graduates as well as business. Actuarial exams can be done by anyone who finds a trainer position. At 16/17 you probably think these choices are so important. They're really not. Take other things into consideration such as quality of life (it sounds like you already favour tcd in this regard. There are bad lecturers in every single course, not just tcd. You are guaranteed to encounter some awful ones and part of college will be self-learning to get through their classes. And even if employers are slightly aware of the rankings, they probably won't know the exact positions, or that it's based on research output, etc. It sounds like you'll be going for the graduate programmes of financial institutions and what seems to impress these people is getting a first class honours in final year and some extra curricular stuff to make yourself sound well rounded. They really won't give a crap if you did maths in tcd or business in ucd. I can't emphasise enough how little they will care.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    LLMMML wrote: »
    They really won't give a crap if you did maths in tcd or business in ucd. I can't emphasise enough how little they will care.

    Given OP wants to do a quantsy job, then that distinction really matters a lot. There are lots of jobs in finance which specifically require a degree in a 'numerate' discipline, and business is not that,

    Re. the OP:
    1. economics and finance seems to be a great course but im not convinced that the jobs the graduates get are really that good despite the big names involved. Also im worried that abroad unfortunately Trinity is regarded farrrr superior to UCD which does have an effect on an employer deciding between two equally qualified candidates imo. However im really interested in this course as a lot of high achieving students in the CAO apply for this course and id love to truly know why!

    Your post implies that Economics and Finance is a course in UCD? Anyway, as far as I know, if you want to avail of opportunities abroad then TCD would be better, as it has a better reputation. Other than that, there's nothing that you can do with this degree, that you can't do with a degree in maths, or maths+economics.
    2. I do actuarial maths in UCD and end up getting my exemptions but dont get a job with a a great salary as i expected (€100k+) after fully qualified ofc, and i also worry that it will be difficult going abroad with this degree. Also i am aware that i will have to study very hard for several years but how much will i genuinely have to study if im good at taking exams and will the studying cease once qualified? Is the fus about actuaries really warranted?

    I'm not an actuary, but I work with a lot of them. From what I can tell, the pros include very good career prospects, and a very good chance of making €100k while still relatively young. The exams will be time consuming, even if you're good at taking exams. You will genuinely have to study.

    The cons - it takes a very long time to get qualified. The sheer number of exams is huge. Also, to me at least, it'd be a bit boring. You're training for a very specific role (you'll either be an actuary for life insurance, or general insurance), in a specific industry, and doing a very specific job. Are you OK with limiting your options for the sake of stability?

    3. Maths in TCD will obviously open more paths (or will it?) but im petrified that this degree will be extremely difficult to do well in and that the content wont6 be of interest to me. Although ive only been to UCD once, i am in love with Trinity, the location, buildings, library and ultimately the reputation is so tempting (Why not go for the better college if you can) Also im aware TCD us 15th or whatever in the world but thats just for research and i heard some of the lecturers are appalling. basically is the course in whole too difficult and are the prospects greater? also is there any opportunity for internships and do TCD try help you get jobs or have good partners etc.

    Anything worth doing is difficult. I'd say maths is very worth doing, because it means you can still get the jobs you'd get having done both courses you've mentioned above. You can study to become an actuary after the degree, if you like. Or, You can take up a more general quants-y role in a Bank, where they'll teach you all the finance and economics you need to know. You also have the option of combining the degree with Economics, if you especially want to singnal that you're into the finance side of things. Or, you can do an Msc. in Finance or Economics after your undergrad, and become a quant that way. In short, Maths really keeps your options open.


  • Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭LLMMML


    andrew wrote: »
    Given OP wants to do a quantsy job, then that distinction really matters a lot. There are lots of jobs in finance which specifically require a degree in a 'numerate' discipline, and business is not that,

    Having a look at ads for trainee actuary positions, some specify a maths type degree is needed, some don't. And in my experience, requirements on job applications can be manipulated and tailored to your own experience during an interview. And as you say, the OP can do a business masters after his degree, but he could also do a numerate masters after a business degree. The overall point I'm trying to make is that there are multiple ways to get into any job (even things as specialised as medicine), and the worry the OP is displaying is unnecessary.



    if you want to avail of opportunities abroad then TCD would be better, as it has a better reputation.

    While this gets bandied about a lot, in practice it will have no effect. The vast majority of people outside ireland don't have a clue what trinity is. Can you name any other country's top universities apart from UK, US and maybe France? You MIGHT get interviewed by someone in the US who was a tourist in Dublin once if you're lucky. Other than that it's not going to make any difference.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    LLMMML wrote: »
    Having a look at ads for trainee actuary positions, some specify a maths type degree is needed, some don't.

    Though at the very least you'd need to be doing your actuarial qualifications, right? Which is a numerate requirement, and one that'd be hard to do without a numerate degree.
    And in my experience, requirements on job applications can be manipulated and tailored to your own experience during an interview.

    That is, if you even get to interview. If you don't have the requirements for the job and others do, it's a lot more difficult to get an interview.
    And as you say, the OP can do a business masters after his degree, but he could also do a numerate masters after a business degree.

    The overall point I'm trying to make is that there are multiple ways to get into any job (even things as specialised as medicine), and the worry the OP is displaying is unnecessary.

    That, I think, is a lot more difficult than going the other way around. For example, I'm doing an Msc. in Economics here. I think it would be very very difficult for someone without a numerate degree to do this course. Not that the maths is very difficult, it's just that they assume a certain level of maths and don't allow for any time for someone to catch up.

    I agree with your overall point, it's just that I think this applies less when it comes to moving between numerate and non-numerate jobs.
    While this gets bandied about a lot, in practice it will have no effect. The vast majority of people outside ireland don't have a clue what trinity is. Can you name any other country's top universities apart from UK, US and maybe France? You MIGHT get interviewed by someone in the US who was a tourist in Dublin once if you're lucky. Other than that it's not going to make any difference.

    If they're going to know of ANY Irish college, it'll probably be Trinity though, right? So, all else being pretty much equal, may as well go to Trinity.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭metrosity


    You could try and move into something applied. There's an alarming number of people from China in particular (but also other parts of Asia) doing masters in Comp Sci. or Business in UCD or Trinity and walking straight into good jobs (certainly good experience - software engineers, data analysts) in EMEA HQ's.

    I don't resent that. They're playing the game and winning. Irish people are 3rd. class citizens in their countries behind the natives themselves, and behind American and Canadians ad an ad hominem level. Wasn't Korea in the news recently for blocking an Irish girl from getting a job because she as from a country that drinks a lot. That place is legendary for is xenophobia.

    I implore more Irish people to do a masters in something more technical if you can. Don't give the HR people any more excuses than they already have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭LLMMML


    andrew wrote: »
    Though at the very least you'd need to be doing your actuarial qualifications, right? Which is a numerate requirement, and one that'd be hard to do without a numerate degree.

    I think you'd start your trainee position before doing exams. You don't have to be in the midst of actuarial exams to get a trainee position.

    I'd really question how much a maths degree helps with actuarial exams. Things like abstract algebra, analysis, differential geometry, mechanics etc. Won't help you a bit. Stats will, and if they still have a module on financial maths that will, but BESS will teach you those things anyway.

    That is, if you even get to interview. If you don't have the requirements for the job and others do, it's a lot more difficult to get an interview.

    You might have a point here. I've no idea how hard it is to get an interview for a trainee actuary position.
    That, I think, is a lot more difficult than going the other way around. For example, I'm doing an Msc. in Economics here. I think it would be very very difficult for someone without a numerate degree to do this course. Not that the maths is very difficult, it's just that they assume a certain level of maths and don't allow for any time for someone to catch up.

    Has everyone in your course done maths? No BESS people?

    If they're going to know of ANY Irish college, it'll probably be Trinity though, right? So, all else being pretty much equal, may as well go to Trinity.

    Well if he thought his quality of life would be better in UCD or somewhere else then I'd say no, supposed international reputation would not be a good reason to pick tcd. The main reason to pick tcd is it's city centre location.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    LLMMML wrote: »

    Has everyone in your course done maths? No BESS people?

    Yeah there are BESS people (I'm one of them); in most cases they'd have done Quants in 4th year, Mathematical Econ and Econometrics in 3rd, and other Economics courses which are relatively mathsy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭metrosity


    andrew wrote: »
    Yeah there are BESS people (I'm one of them); in most cases they'd have done Quants in 4th year, Mathematical Econ and Econometrics in 3rd, and other Economics courses which are relatively mathsy.

    I'd go for an 'MSc. in Business Analytics' at Michael Smurfit Graduate Business School if I were you in that case. Non-EU citizens are marching into respectable jobs in Ireland after completing that course, not long out of undergraduate college in their home countries for the most part. It has a very strong track record. I know an Irish guy who did it and got nowhere but don't take no for an answer.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭andrew


    metrosity wrote: »
    I'd go for an 'MSc. in Business Analytics' at Michael Smurfit Graduate Business School if I were you in that case. Non-EU citizens are marching into respectable jobs in Ireland after completing that course, not long out of undergraduate college in their home countries for the most part. It has a very strong track record. I know an Irish guy who did it and got nowhere but don't take no for an answer.

    I'm doing the Economics Msc. part time, though I've a friend doing that analytics course. Sounds difficult, also really interesting. How come your Irish friend didn't get anywhere?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 116 ✭✭metrosity


    andrew wrote: »
    I'm doing the Economics Msc. part time, though I've a friend doing that analytics course. Sounds difficult, also really interesting. How come your Irish friend didn't get anywhere?
    I don't know. I think because he's older. He returned to college after gaining lots of experience in another area. He might eventually. It's only less than a year ago that he finished it I think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,805 ✭✭✭Rothmans


    Regarding international mobility, both the UCD business schools and the TCD school of business would be fairly equally matched internationally IIRC. Although its worth bearing the below point (regarding UCD's undergraduate business school) in mind if emigration is your ultimate goal.

    https://sisweb.ucd.ie/usis/!W_HU_MENU.P_PUBLISH?p_tag=INTDISP&SOURCE=INT&LEVL=UG&DISPCODE=BAF&LAYO=DISP_UG

    Why study at UCD?

    Accreditation: We are the only Irish business school accredited by both AACSB (the principal American accreditation) and EQUIS (the leading European accreditation). We are also a member of CEMS (an international alliance of leading business schools). This means that our degrees are internationally recognised and come with a guarantee of quality, which can give you advantages when looking for employment opportunities.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭EuropeanSon


    I don't know why you think the guys in Economics & Finance who work at big name firms aren't in great jobs. I know a few, and they are in some of the best graduate positions available at those companies.

    Of your options, I'd say that's most up your alley, as you don't sound like someone who'd enjoy the TCD Maths course (speaking as someone who did it and really enjoyed it myself).

    Ultimately, none of these courses will get you what you want unless you are at or near the top of the class in them (except maybe actuary, I'm not sure how selective actuarial firms are really). Given that, I'd advise picking the one you feel you'll enjoy most, because that increases the probability of you succeeding in it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 Ima_mokster


    I don't know why you think the guys in Economics & Finance who work at big name firms aren't in great jobs. I know a few, and they are in some of the best graduate positions available at those companies.

    Of your options, I'd say that's most up your alley, as you don't sound like someone who'd enjoy the TCD Maths course (speaking as someone who did it and really enjoyed it myself).

    Ultimately, none of these courses will get you what you want unless you are at or near the top of the class in them (except maybe actuary, I'm not sure how selective actuarial firms are really). Given that, I'd advise picking the one you feel you'll enjoy most, because that increases the probability of you succeeding in it.

    See i love leaving cert maths, other than trig.. and im pretty good i got an A2 in Christmas exams and im hoping for at leat least the same for the mocks and LC! so its not that im bad at maths im just scared that the difference in lc and university maths will be overwhelming and too difficult? What's the step up like from lc to uni maths in tcd? if i was say within the top 6 or 7 of the class what career prospects would i be facing? Thanks!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭EuropeanSon


    See i love leaving cert maths, other than trig.. and im pretty good i got an A2 in Christmas exams and im hoping for at leat least the same for the mocks and LC! so its not that im bad at maths im just scared that the difference in lc and university maths will be overwhelming and too difficult? What's the step up like from lc to uni maths in tcd? if i was say within the top 6 or 7 of the class what career prospects would i be facing? Thanks!
    See i love leaving cert maths, other than trig.. and im pretty good i got an A2 in Christmas exams and im hoping for at leat least the same for the mocks and LC! so its not that im bad at maths im just scared that the difference in lc and university maths will be overwhelming and too difficult? What's the step up like from lc to uni maths in tcd? if i was say within the top 6 or 7 of the class what career prospects would i be facing? Thanks!

    The step up is hard to define. It's not that it's vastly more difficult at first, it's just different. The focus is a lot more on understanding than on method - ie. from my recollection of LC, there was a lot of solving similar problems over and over, whereas in college it was very different, with more real problem solving and much more understanding of proof technique required. I preferred that.

    Of the people who got firsts in my year (the class just graduated) two are doing a masters in maths Cambridge, one is a PhD student in genetics in Oxford with a strong mathematical focus, one is doing a masters in Imperial College London, two are working at big 4 accountancy jobs, and another two (myself included) are working at a prop trading firm as trainee traders. I don't know what the others are up to.

    People I know from Maths & Economics TSM are working at Blackrock (a major international asset manager), Zurich (an insurance company, in an actuarial role), and JP Morgan, in Sales & Trading.


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