Redundancy, redemployment - please help!

kapi13 · 09-10-2013 8:41pm #1

Hi,

I have been with the company for 9.5 years and have been told I would be made redundant. So officially 'the 30 day consultation process' started, followed by 30 day notice period.

Today, after 3 weeks from then, I have been told I might be redeployed to some other position. I have got a list of positions and none of them are suitable for me (perhaps they would be from the employer's standpoint to avoid redundancy payment).

The problem is that I would be happy to accept the redundancy, I have found an alternative employer closer to home for a better pay. However, the HR put pressure on me to choose some position or refuse it in writing. This is quite suspicious, as if I put this in writing, I will not get any redundancy, I think. I was also told not to consult this with any third party.

What should I do to avoid being redeployed? Would calling in sick and avoiding them for 1-2 weeks solve it? Or pretending being deaf and ignorant at the interview for a new 'redeployment' position? At first I was surprised by the redundancy, but after consideration I would be very happy with the package and leave!

Please advise. Really appreciate any comments.

Ray Palmer · 10-10-2013 9:20am

I am not an expert on this but I think you are OK. The 30 day notice of redundancy is a period where the deals are worked out. You do not have to take a job that is different from your original. If you refuse it they have to make you redundant AFAIK. They need this in writing.

There should be an employee representative that is there to put any questions to the company about details. This would certainly be the type of issue they should be there to address. If they do not have one they aren't following procedure.

THE HR department should answer these questions anyway.

Eoin · 10-10-2013 1:34pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You do not have to take a job that is different from your original. If you refuse it they have to make you redundant AFAIK.

It does not have to be the exact same role. If the conditions are the same and it's not a massively different role, then you may not be entitled to redundancy should you refuse it.

kapi13 wrote:

Would calling in sick and avoiding them for 1-2 weeks solve it?

I would say it wouldn't (for most scenarios, let alone this one). How different are the new roles? Are the benefits etc the same? Acting the eejit in an interview might not help either. How long can you string out the job offer that's closer to home, and pays more?

Edit - from this page. Unfortunately it looks like "unreasonable" refers more to the conditions than the role itself, but it's hard to tell from the little information they give there.

Alternative work
As with any dismissal, an employer must act reasonably when dismissing an employee in a redundancy situation. This requires prior consultation with you before the decision is made. In addition, your employer should consider all options including possible alternatives.

If your employer makes you a reasonable offer of alternative work, and you refuse it, you may lose your entitlement to a redundancy payment. Generally speaking, alternatives which involve a loss of status or worsening of the terms and conditions of your employment would not be considered reasonable. Similarly, you may be justified in refusing an offer that involves you travelling an unreasonable distance to work.

You may take up an alternative on trial for up to 4 weeks. Where the alternative involves a reduction of 50% or more in hours or pay, working under the new arrangements for up to 52 weeks will not count as an acceptance.

If you accept a new contract or re-engagement with immediate effect and the terms do not differ from those of the previous contract, you will not be entitled to claim redundancy. This also applies if you refuse such an offer unreasonably.

If you accept an offer in writing from your employer for a new and different contract which will take effect within 4 weeks of the ending of the previous contract, you will not be entitled to claim redundancy. Equally, if you refuse such an offer unreasonably, you will lose your right to a redundancy payment.

Your justifiable refusal of an offer of alternative work, followed by dismissal, may, depending on the circumstances, entitle you to seek statutory redundancy or make a claim for unfair dismissal.

Any offer of alternative work should be given to you in writing and you are entitled to full information concerning the details of the offer.

kapi13 · 10-10-2013 8:13pm

Does sending me a list of all open positions in the company count as making me a reasonable offer?

kapi13 · 10-10-2013 8:17pm

Would being upset, depressed and out of the office for a period of time help in any way (say they would realize that they really do not want me there anymore)?

The roles office jobs, similar in a way that I still would be sitting in front of MS Outlook and Excel, but doing completely different things.

kapi13 · 10-10-2013 8:19pm

The conditions (pay, working hours, location) would not be changed. It does not look good then, right?

SC Kevin · 10-10-2013 8:36pm

Why not just tell them that when they said that they were making you redundant, you started looking for and found another job that is closer to home and has better pay. You can then add that you no longer wish to work for your present employer and to send your redundancy cheque to your home address! Sorted

kapi13 · 10-10-2013 8:38pm

If I say that, will they not tell me that I refused their 'reasonable' offer and resigned?

It is a large multinational, trying to save on redundancy packages and offering positions nobody wants (the rotation in the other departments is very high and people leave - therefore so many openings...).

Wendolene · 10-10-2013 8:46pm

Hi OP,

I went through something very similar to this a few years ago. However, it sounds like your HR dept. haven't laid out the terms and conditions of the redundancy/redeployment scheme very clearly.

Where I worked, HR produced a document that detailed the redundancy/redeployment process and how it would be carried out.

Specifically, they should explain a number of things in writing to everyone, to ensure that the entire process is conducted transparently and fairly for everyone affected :

- exactly on what terms redundancy will and will not be offered;
- what criteria must an employee meet in order to qualify for redundancy, e.g. attempting to secure an alternative role within the company;
- the criteria outside of which an employee will be deemed to be leaving the company of their own volition;
- the terms by which an employee can refuse an alternative role within the company, i.e. how are roles deemed to be exceptionally different, and still qualify for redundancy.

Without those details nobody can make a fair and informed decision on redundancy or redeployment.

Telling you to not discuss it with a third party is unfair. You're entitled to dicuss it with your workplace reps (if any) or to obtain some independant legal advice if you so wish.

Get things from HR in writing, and don't commit to anything in writing yourself until you've made sure of where you stand. BTW, tell HR in writing that you have concerns about the process and outline them. Bring your line manager into this paper trail also. Ask direct questions of them about the process. Get answers in writing.

In fact, adopt a total "put that in writing please" attitude and be clear and up-front about advising everyone that it's for the protection and benefit of all concerned - you, your line manager, HR and the company.

If you meet resistance to that, then I'd really get workplace reps involved (if any), or get some independant trade union representation for yourself (if not). You're entitled to it.

BTW, I'm not a trade union member, but I have seen how some individual former colleagues benefitted from getting individual representation. It really put manners on the company - i's dotted and t's crossed all the way.

HTH,
W.

SC Kevin · 10-10-2013 8:51pm

Thats exactly what they are trying to do, the dirty scum bags!

The fact that HR has been putting pressure on you, asking you to refuse in writing and also telling you not to discuss this with any third party...red flags started popping up in my head when i read that!

To me, and this is only my opinion, it defo sounds like they are trying to screw you out of your redundancy but putting you in to another position which technically you will be starting a new contract. They may then decide after a few months that you "werent quiet up to the job" and bye bye to you with nothing!

Im not saying that they will do this, i have no idea where or who you work for, but i wouldnt be trusting any company to be looking out for you these days.

Your best bet would be to ring citizens information and run it by them, i did when i was made redundant!

kapi13 · 10-10-2013 10:25pm

I am just afraid that I will not be happy and will not survive in the new position they will offer to me and leave myself, waiving the right to redundancy... I was with them for nearly 10 years and I really liked this job, but they are moving the whole dept abroad. After so many years it would be a good package helping me to pay off the negative equity at home mortgage...

So really do not know what I can do, to get the redundancy and start the new job I found?

There is this consultation period finishing in a week time and then supposedly the notice period should start.

I am having the impression that HR are bullying me to accept any of the open posts...

How can I avoid it, can I not sign off any of their offers and get away with it?

What will happen if I am sick (I am really getting upset now) for 1-2 weeks?

Nody · 11-10-2013 4:44am

If they make you a reasonable offer (i.e. as per definition above) by legal definition you can not get the redundancy and that is not bullying that's simply following the law.

Ray Palmer · 11-10-2013 9:43am

I think you have the wrong end of the stick when it comes to saving money on redundancies. A company has to have a insolvency fund by law. That money is to cover redundancies and the company cannot spend it.

In other words they aren't saving any money as they have to put it aside anyway.

Now that is just statutory redundancy so in theory if they pay more it does cost them but it is also a tax back on redundancies anyway above statutory so again not likely to cost them more. I am a little hazy on the extra payment and the limits of tax benefits for the that but sure about insolvency funds.

OP go talk to them and say you would like to be made redundant or the representative and see if it is possible.

Bandana boy · 11-10-2013 9:45am

You need to box the offer into a couple of categories
Will your place of work change (by more than 17 km I believe )
Will your terms and conditions change
Is the role a loss of status

If not then the company has not made you redundant, and Cannot be expected to pay out a redundancy.

The only other option I can see you can follow is if there are people in a similar position/role to yourself who want the job on offer but are currently being made redundant you could go to HR saying they want the role and wish to forgo their redundancy and you would be happy to take their place.

I know from previous experience that you will thrive more in role where you are happier. I have forgone redundancy twice by leaving when it was about to appear and while you will temporairly regret it when past colleagues have a big cheque in their hand I know I am in abetter postion mentally and financially by leaving when I did.

kapi13 · 11-10-2013 11:40pm

The location is the same (the same building in fact), potential jobs is similar to some extent (although a completely new area) and no loss of status

imitation · 11-10-2013 11:46pm

Surely taking it won't count as a new contract and reset your overall redundancy though ?

kapi13 · 11-10-2013 11:51pm

There will not be any other redundancy, people leave in those other departments every week and they constantly recruit... I will myself in a few months/years max.

Nody · 12-10-2013 9:50am

kapi13 wrote: »

The location is the same (the same building in fact), potential jobs is similar to some extent (although a completely new area) and no loss of status

So there's your answer; you don't have a right to a redundancy and if you want to leave then you leave with out it.

imitation · 12-10-2013 12:35pm

kapi13 wrote: »

There will not be any other redundancy, people leave in those other departments every week and they constantly recruit... I will myself in a few months/years max.

What causes the turn over ? Is it long hours, or just that the job is high pressure or something ? Maybe as somebody who has been with the company long term you will have more clout and be able to make it more bearable ? I think either way you should talk to somebody, no need to necessarily tell the company (not immediately). It is fishy how they say speak to nobody.

Ray Palmer · 14-10-2013 10:23am

kapi13 wrote: »

There will not be any other redundancy, people leave in those other departments every week and they constantly recruit... I will myself in a few months/years max.

Have you asked them to explain what your options are yet? If they refuse you have grounds to appeal later on. You have nothing to lose in getting a them to answer you questions.

It seems to me that you are worrying yourself and thinking hypotheticals without getting straight answers which you are entitled to.

Gilroy · 21-10-2013 12:14pm

Hi,

Have you been made reduntant yet? Or reployed?

brinks_18476 · 22-10-2013 4:21pm

Hi guys, jumping on here if that's ok.

if your position is made redundant after say 10 years and you are offered an alternative position within the same company and made redundant 1 year later, are you considered to have 1 year or 11 years service for redundancy?

Also if you took on a new position in the company working in another country what applies then if you are made redundant a year after new position?

Thanks

kapi13 · 03-11-2013 12:55pm

Gilroy wrote: »

Hi,

Have you been made reduntant yet? Or reployed?

HAppily redundant on 31 October

Redundancy, redemployment - please help!

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