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A discussion on the rules.
Comments
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We are currently discussing the preparations for dealing with the upcoming elections. I will add these concerns to the agenda.0
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Probably been asked before but I'm asking anyway, simple yes/no answers would suffice - I'm making no accusations, merely asking the questions which I'd like answered and will accept whatever the answers may be...
1) Do the rules of boards and these forums apply to all users or is there some lee-way or special dispensation to not have the rules applied to users who continually bring any topics related to SF in particular, off topic at (it seems) every opportunity ?
2) In relation to the above, if reports are made, sometimes many reports made against these users who continually bring topics related to SF off topic at every opportunity - are these reports just ignored and fobbed off out of hand by the mods or Cmods on politics or are you being ordered in any way to do so (ignore these reports) by Boards themselves ?
3) In relation to point 2 above, do the reports made by users have a private, I suppose mod/cmod/admin only viewable section, where action or inaction is viewable to other mods responsible for Politics forums - to prevent/deter any opportunity if ever such a heinous deed was attempted by any type of rogue admin/mod ignoring, taking no action and then deleting such reports before any other mod/cmod/admin got a chance to view same ?
4) Lastly, Is Boards in any way funded or associated with Fine Gael, it's Youth wing or any any other inkling of association with FG in any way ?
Thanks.0 -
Probably been asked before but I'm asking anyway, simple yes/no answers would suffice -
1. All rules are applied equally - if you feel we've missed something, report the post.
2. We aren't ordered to do anything by anyone. We judge each report based on the charter and rules, if someone is walking the line, we note it, we won't infract or ban based on a reported post.
3. a log of all moderation is available for any post.
4. Are you seriously asking that? NO and it's a ridiculous question.
[personal opinion]
It should be noted that too many posters take the view of "if you don't agree with me, you must be one of them".
This is, in my view, an arrogant and childish view that plagues this forum. I've been accused of being pro-sinn fein and pro-FF in the same thread (I'm not even eligible to vote in Ireland), pro/anti-Israel, pro/anti PRC etc often on the same page.
People need to grow up and realize that just because they don't get their way, there isn't some huge agenda against them.0 -
1. All rules are applied equally - if you feel we've missed something, report the post.
I have, many times. I don't report willy nilly, I report in particular a few users who continually at every opportunity bring threads relating any way to SF off topic. I don't think there's a single thread relating to SF on politics forum that has not been brought off topic by the same few people.
No (publicly viewable) action is ever taken against these people who continue to do the same thing again and again, hence my perception is that those few people and rule breaking in general if aimed against anything SF is fair game.
I have given up reporting these users as I felt it was a waste of time and now just no longer participate in those threads as what starts out with what you might read on page 1, click the last post button and the thread has descended into farce (usually from page 2 onwards).
I however accept your reply and shall say no more. I had to ask, you've answered I believe honestly and therefore I'm content in that I was wrong in my perception.
However, I will still refrain from participating in same discussions once the Irish version of Godwins law has once again been invoked and the threads then descend into farce from thereon.2. We aren't ordered to do anything by anyone. We judge each report based on the charter and rules, if someone is walking the line, we note it, we won't infract or ban based on a reported post.
3. a log of all moderation is available for any post.
Thanks.4. Are you seriously asking that? NO and it's a ridiculous question.
Yes. I felt the need to ask and I accept your response, thank you.[personal opinion]
It should be noted that too many posters take the view of "if you don't agree with me, you must be one of them".
People need to grow up and realize that just because they don't get their way, there isn't some huge agenda against them.
It wasn't about "getting my way" or anything to do with others not agreeing. I had honest grievances in the lack of moderation as I saw it, particularly in relation to SF threads and again, a few users intent on bringing said threads off topic at every single opportunity, even when said users are reported for doing same, yet continue on it would seem, unabated and without a care as to breaking any rules the rest of us have to abide by.
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.0 -
I'm not a Sinn Feiner, and in fact I have a serious problem with the party from a policy perspective alone, but I would have to reluctantly agree with the poster Nehaxak on the issue of Sinn Fein threads being constantly derailed.
The party should be discredited for its policies, absolutely; while that could often be done quite easily, threads relating to SF inevitably descend into the same sort of rubbish about kneecappings and Enniskillen. In my mind, that's allowed to happen in a way that would be considered way off topic for other parties like FF or FG. Imagine a thread on FG economic policy where all anybody could talk about was Fine Gael taxing children's shoes in the 1980s.
All that irrelevant derailing with history lessons actually achieves is to serve as a distraction from how loony Sinn Féin really are, in my opinion. I understand that politics must be a demanding forum to moderate, but really I think it's safe to say that a troublemaker would feel a lot more safe bashing Sinn Finers on here than he would feel bashing the Fine Gaelers or even the Greens.0 -
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It wasn't about "getting my way" or anything to do with others not agreeing. I had honest grievances in the lack of moderation as I saw it, particularly in relation to SF threads and again, a few users intent on bringing said threads off topic at every single opportunity, even when said users are reported for doing same, yet continue on it would seem, unabated and without a care as to breaking any rules the rest of us have to abide by.
There is a difficulty with 'derailment' from a moderator perspective, which is that in some cases it is obvious, while in others it's not very cut and dried.
There are quite a few people whose objections to Sinn Fein are precisely those that are being described here as derailment - kneecappings and Enniskillen. Whether those objections are relevant to the topic in hand depends on the exact topic under discussion. They're fairly irrelevant when the thread intends to discuss, say, the potential impacts of a specific item in Sinn Fein's economic policies, but they're not automatically irrelevant in a discussion of Gerry Adams' chances of taking a seat in Louth - some people won't vote Sinn Fein for those reasons, and think other people should not vote Sinn Fein for those reasons.
In respect of other parties, it's not so much of an issue, except where Green Party threads get derailed by people who don't accept climate change is actually happening. It's not even so much of an issue that every discussion of Fianna Fáil tends to wind up with people complaining about NAMA and the bank bailout, because NAMA and the bank bailout are part of the recent record of Fianna Fáil in government.
If we don't allow people to express their genuine reasons for objecting to Sinn Fein, we are effectively intervening in support of Sinn Fein, because their association with terrorist acts in the relatively recent past is a very large factor for a good proportion of the electorate, and we'd be in effect saying that people cannot put forward that point of view. The price of that is, indeed, derailment of threads into trench warfare, their eventual closure by the mods, and a rash of red spots.
Another one of those cases where there isn't a perfect solution, I'm afraid.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
I take your points/views Scofflaw and I do understand that side of things, but do we have to put up with this in every single thread in relation to SF ?
Also, labelling a whole party (and thusly, it's supporters/voters) merely by perceived association is unfair and wrong.
I support, admire and vote SF - yet I do not nor ever did support the IRA, nor will I ever.
While I understand your wording or intentions when saying "their association with terrorist acts" may not have meant to come across in a way meant to be insulting to me as a voter/supporter of SF, it nonetheless did and hence another wrong perception is thrown about which is all too common on here.
I do however take some comfort in the belief that if the only thing to be constantly thrown around here in opposition of SF, is their perceived association and involvement with wrongful deeds carried out in the past by the PIRA - Then an awful lot of you who are opposed merely on those grounds, are just wasting opportunities to discuss actual policies.
If there's anything I've picked up and learned from SF supporters and those who would possibly consider voting for them, it's that they know damn well what the perceptions and perceived associations are in regards the PIRA - and it doesn't effect them to reconsider their voting either way.
The only thing you're (not you personally Scofflaw, I'm addressing this in general...) doing by constantly whacking out the same old stuff is just pissing people like me off who post here as I can see past all of that and would rather discuss policies and politics - yet I'm left to either place people on ignore or just ignore a whole thread once it's descended into farce.
Which is a shame as an election is looming large, SF should up their vote significantly in same and if the last few months is anything to go by, you really cannot be certain what way things will turn out once the election is over and a government needs to be formed.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond and though I could go on arguing "my side of the fence" as I see it, I shan't - merely because I hope people themselves at some stage rise above the usual and we can discuss actual policies and politics.
Which will probably be after Gerry Adams is declared Taoiseach...0 -
I take your points/views Scofflaw and I do understand that side of things, but do we have to put up with this in every single thread in relation to SF ?
Also, labelling a whole party (and thusly, it's supporters/voters) merely by perceived association is unfair and wrong.
I support, admire and vote SF - yet I do not nor ever did support the IRA, nor will I ever.
While I understand your wording or intentions when saying "their association with terrorist acts" may not have meant to come across in a way meant to be insulting to me as a voter/supporter of SF, it nonetheless did and hence another wrong perception is thrown about which is all too common on here.
I did originally have slightly different phrasing there which made it clearer that I meant the association in the public's mind, and I probably should have kept that, although it made the sentence more awkward.I do however take some comfort in the belief that if the only thing to be constantly thrown around here in opposition of SF, is their perceived association and involvement with wrongful deeds carried out in the past by the PIRA - Then an awful lot of you who are opposed merely on those grounds, are just wasting opportunities to discuss actual policies.
If there's anything I've picked up and learned from SF supporters and those who would possibly consider voting for them, it's that they know damn well what the perceptions and perceived associations are in regards the PIRA - and it doesn't effect them to reconsider their voting either way.
The only thing you're (not you personally Scofflaw, I'm addressing this in general...) doing by constantly whacking out the same old stuff is just pissing people like me off who post here as I can see past all of that and would rather discuss policies and politics - yet I'm left to either place people on ignore or just ignore a whole thread once it's descended into farce.
Which is a shame as an election is looming large, SF should up their vote significantly in same and if the last few months is anything to go by, you really cannot be certain what way things will turn out once the election is over and a government needs to be formed.
I appreciate you taking the time to respond and though I could go on arguing "my side of the fence" as I see it, I shan't - merely because I hope people themselves at some stage rise above the usual and we can discuss actual policies and politics.
Which will probably be after Gerry Adams is declared Taoiseach...
I'm afraid that it's unlikely to be any time in the conceivable Irish future at all.
Also, just looking at the Jean McConville thread there, I have to say that while there are people who are very visibly pursuing the question of Adams' involvement in the killing, there are also people who are defending her killing on the basis that she was a tout, while denying Adams' involvement in it. More or less a post a minute, 13 ruddy pages of it, and into the trench warfare by the end of page one.
The problem there is that Jean McConville's daughter is standing because her mother was shot by the PIRA, on the orders, she believes, of the man she's running against. How is the discussion supposed to "rise above the usual and...discuss actual policies and politics" when the politics of the situation itself revolve around questions of culpability in murder?
It's not up to the mods to square that circle for Sinn Fein.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
Also, as per the rules of the charter, ANYONE celebrating murder or death, be it of a soldier, informant, IRA member or anyone alleged to be one of these, will be removed from the forum.0
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I take your points/views Scofflaw and I do understand that side of things, but do we have to put up with this in every single thread in relation to SF ?[/SIZE]
There's a horrible issue here in that SF's past is horribly relevant to the question of SF in the present for much and many of the electorate. It's extremely difficult to come up with anything other than an extremely narrow topic where it doesn't become relevant enough for someone to genuinely bring it up in a thread.
Now there is very understandable annoyance on the side of SF voters/supporters because they have to defend against the same old type of accusations over and over in every thread, but the exact same thing could be said of FF and Green threads where they are constantly derailed into stuff about NAMA etc even when the topic is actually something completely separate.
This is an extremely difficult issue to moderate on because people do have a right to complain about SF's relationship with the IRA as much as they have the right to complain about FF's bringing about of NAMA or the IMF deal or whatever. In fact, we're probably going to be dealing with IMF and NAMA issues on FF threads on sites for a decade at least if FF remain around as a party in their current form and FF canvassers will have it thrown in their faces for longer similar to how SF canvassers are hunted from doorsteps in some areas for their history with the IRA.
I'd honestly love if people were able to stick narrowly to the topic at hand in threads but really human nature just isn't made up that way and people will constantly drag threads off on relevant tangents and there's not much we can do to change this without draconian measures that will blatantly favour one side or the other (picture us banning all discussion of Budget, Banker dealings, Financial misregulation, NAMA and the IMF deal outside of threads that specifically include them as topics if you want to see how this looks from the perspective of a party you don't support).0 -
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It would also be of benifit to us the ordinary members if boards admins mods etc did not do so much navel gazing in public,it is a discussion board and outside of the outrageous should be allowed to flow without constant interruptions and closing of threads.
high standards are really welcome, overegulation is a pain in the .....0 -
It would also be of benifit to us the ordinary members if boards admins mods etc did not do so much navel gazing in public,it is a discussion board and outside of the outrageous should be allowed to flow without constant interruptions and closing of threads.
high standards are really welcome, overegulation is a pain in the .....
Overregulation is in the eye of the beholder. We've a sizeable group complaining that we're too lenient on this forum.
With respect, this forum has always been more tightly moderated than the rest of the site in many ways and if you wish a more handsfree experience then one of the other forums like After Hours may be more to your tastes.0 -
Overregulation is in the eye of the beholder. We've a sizeable group complaining that we're too lenient on this forum.
With respect, this forum has always been more tightly moderated than the rest of the site in many ways and if you wish a more handsfree experience then one of the other forums like After Hours may be more to your tastes.
I know this site for many years,are you saying that the politics forum is for the intelligent members and AH's are for those shall We say erm more ignorant in these matters?
Sounds like underestimating the plain people of Ireland to Me and wanting to be well a sort of ruling elite on boards?
With respect0 -
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I know this site for many years,are you saying that the politics forum is for the intelligent members and AH's are for those shall We say erm more ignorant in these matters?
Sounds like underestimating the plain people of Ireland to Me and wanting to be well a sort of ruling elite on boards?
With respect
Nah, not saying that at all. Merely that the two forums operate under different rules and one may suit you better than the other. When I moderated AH many years ago I encouraged its use during elections precisely because a lot of people prefer a more loosely moderated venue to express political opinions.0 -
Nah, not saying that at all. Merely that the two forums operate under different rules and one may suit you better than the other. When I moderated AH many years ago I encouraged its use during elections precisely because a lot of people prefer a more loosely moderated venue to express political opinions.
Good for You nesf!!! it is straight talking like that without taking it personal that shows your metal!
any hope you will run in this election because as you well know we need straight talkers,as a people we are feeling lost......
Cheers and thanks for the reply0 -
I rarely visit this forum anymore as I find that far superior and more informed debate can be had on Politics.ie. because of the following reasons:
P.ie has established itself as a news source to be reckoned with. It broke most of last week's minister's press conferences even before RTÉ and provided us with live coverage of what was being announced. I found out about the resignations from there first. RTÉ's civil servant-run website doesn't appear to be updated after 9pm or at weekends.
There is no "thanks" system on P.ie, so the cliques and circle jerk clubs have not formed over there as they have here. Which leads me on nicely to my next point...
P.ie doesn't suffer from the block of Sinn Féin/IRA members that dominate every second thread in here, making civilised discussion impossible as they shout down everybody else using their sheer numbers. They proclaim that it's ok to murder to achieve a political goal - how can you argue with that? Some of these people are obviously mentally ill, as evidenced by some of the disgusting comments on the "Jean McConville's daughter" thread, which was thankfully locked. The fact that Sinn Féin comprises only 3% of the Dáil yet accounts for half the posters here suggest that there are plants among us. I have my suspicions but I won't mention names or specific posts without a mod's permission.
Overall, I find the posters on P.ie to be more informed. Probably because it is a dedicated politics site and so would only attract those who have a genuine interest. Whereas any goon from After Hours can wander over to the boards.ie politics forum and start yet another thread calling for a protest (without aims, goals or solutions).
Just two cents. For the record, I find the mods of this forum to be very fair and balanced. It's the posters that drag the standard down.0 -
Please see the many posts above for the other side of the story.
The SF posters feel censored and victimized, the non-SF posters feel the SF posters are allowed to run wild.
I think that puts us firmly in the center, which imo is a good place for us to be.
Regarding the standard of the posters, there is only so much we can do. The political spectrum, from a voting perspective, is comprised of not just the politically-minded elite, but also the "AH crowd" and their vote and their voice is, in political currency terms, worthy every bit as much as anyone else's.
Maybe the "everyman" opinion can be seen as a strength rather than a weakness?
Either way, we can't tell someone how to think, we can merely insist they express themselves in an adult and civil manner. We are currently reviewing how to deal with threadspoiling in some of the more partisan topics.
As you point out, we are a small, but busy section of a much larger site, we cater for all tastes and I am sorry that it is not to your taste.0 -
The last time I used a political message board was about 2006, 2007, and I was registered on politics.ie. At that time, I gave up posting on there because of the amount of republican nonsense that was posted at the time. That has now changed. I don't know (a) if boards was always so republican or (b) if they migrated from politics.ie but perhaps it wouldn't hurt to look at why there is so much of this diehard form of republicanism on boards.ie and not on politics.ieP.ie doesn't suffer from the block of Sinn Féin/IRA members that dominate every second thread in here, making civilised discussion impossible as they shout down everybody else using their sheer numbers. They proclaim that it's ok to murder to achieve a political goal - how can you argue with that?
For the record, I prefer this site overall because of the breadth of forums it can provide and I think the ''thanks'' system is great, it means you don't have to block up a flowing discussion to mention how much you agree with a poster who has managed to portray a point more clearly than you might have done yourself. I think this is a great forum but there is an awful lot of focus on republicans and kneecappings and the like.0 -
There is no "thanks" system on P.ie, so the cliques and circle jerk clubs have not formed over there as they have here. Which leads me on nicely to my next point...
P.ie had a thanks system which imploded a few years ago with hilarious results.
As for the rest of your criticisms, i can't really add or take away from them, but as you say this forum is a sub forum of a much larger site, P.ie is specialist and well established at this stage as the premier site for Irish political discussion. There's machine nation as well which is alright and lots and lots of great blogs.0 -
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They proclaim that it's ok to murder to achieve a political goal - how can you argue with that?
You don't argue, you report the post and we ban the poster.
It's specifically against our rules for someone to proclaim such things and that was precisely the outcome of that proclamation in the thread you mentioned.0 -
I'm going to copy these issues to the feedback forum. I think this is overall feedback that goes above my paygrade and I don't want to be moderating input on how people perceive we are doing.
I'll leave this copied here in politics for politics posters who don't want to venture into the scary waters of feedback.
Admins, over to you.0 -
The last time I used a political message board was about 2006, 2007, and I was registered on politics.ie. At that time, I gave up posting on there because of the amount of republican nonsense that was posted at the time. That has now changed. I don't know (a) if boards was always so republican or (b) if they migrated from politics.ie but perhaps it wouldn't hurt to look at why there is so much of this diehard form of republicanism on boards.ie and not on politics.ie
For the record, I prefer this site overall because of the breadth of forums it can provide and I think the ''thanks'' system is great, it means you don't have to block up a flowing discussion to mention how much you agree with a poster who has managed to portray a point more clearly than you might have done yourself. I think this is a great forum but there is an awful lot of focus on republicans and kneecappings and the like.
There's a politics.ie thread on the fact that they removed their NI forum from their front page:Dave Cochrane wrote:In short the NI forum is mad, there is little to zero discussion of Northern Ireland politics, and a MASSIVE amount of off-topic attacks and trolling. Too much time is being taken by by Politics.ie mods to take up the role of quasi mental health nurses - it's not our job, and it's not the job of mods to have to deal with the horrendous anti-constructive debate which takes place there.
Sounds familiar...and, as far as I can see, their NI forum is still not back on their front page.
amused,
Scofflaw0 -
P.ie doesn't suffer from the block of Sinn Féin/IRA members that dominate every second thread in here
Please feel free to report anyone you consider a member of the IRA to the authorities, otherwise please stop with the spurious allegations as it's only showing the true nature of your own politics and the use of SF/IRA thrown in there to get whatever point it is your ranting about, just dismisses everything else you've said straight away out of hand because of that.
I'm not a member of the IRA, nor SF for that matter. I admire, support and vote SF but I have not nor ever will support the IRA nor any faction of same and I take great offence at being labelled wrongly with your self serving perceptions meant only I'm sure for scoring some childish political points.0 -
so help me, if anyone starts an IRA or SF debate in this thread.....
...lets just say, it will be the last post they ever make in the politics forum.....0 -
Thank you for the clarification edit and I agree, it was not my intention to do so either and apologies if it came across that way at all. The term upsets and disgusts me and felt the need to get my view point across on same.0
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Would it be possible to create a Northern Ireland subforum to sweep the various related threads into? I understand theres quite a few sub forums at this point ( Irish Economy, Budget 2011 and General Election 2011 for example seem to have quite a bit in common) but I think a Northern Ireland sub forum would have plenty of material to keep it going for decades, and it would allow it to be collected in the one spot for everyone who wants to discuss it.
I can see the Politics.ie crowd werent happy with the modding demands of their own subforum but perhaps a Thunderdome style relaxed moderation could be applied to that sub forum. The threads are still being created so they still need to be modded as it stands, if theyre in a subforum a specific charter could be applied.0 -
Thats been said a few times sand0
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So its got broad support...lets get to it.0
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Whats the deal with giving sources, just Reading Jolly Red Giants thread and getting flack from Eliot Rosewater for giving non linked sources, what is the official Politics stance on academic refences, considering they are generally the most accurate of sources (and generally quite easy to find academic rebuttals of them too) and citing a newspaper/magazine report on a study is often extremely uninformative due to reporters often biase and lack of understanding, but these sources are unavailable (apart from abstracts) to most users (though traditionally lot of students etc on boards.ie so still a fair few should have access).
Whats deal no academic references even though most accurate?0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0DUsGSMwZY
This discussion has been closed.
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