HELP! Got Postgrad Grant last year now SUSI looking for money back?!!

freewilli88 wrote: »

Interesting, and also thanks for the links.
Would these have been uploaded and unchanged since 2011/2012?

Its all well and good to have the info in this document but I would love to see the information they were putting in front of us during the application process, i.e on the website proper (and not in the encyclopedia of terms and conditions), document communication etc etc. I hope I can find any pdfs I may have saved during my application because its unlikely anyone would have that!

In any case, they are chasing a lost cause! I wouldnt likely have the money to pay them back 2000 as Im still looking for work and theyl be hard pushed chasing me up for it as well! Theres people, possibly me included that may not have been in a financial position to complete a course without this grant, so to try and take it back is a disgrace! Is this nonsense happening to people who are still in college? that would be shameful!

The 2012-2013 ones are laws signed by Minister Quinn so they wouldn't have been changed since uploaded.

As regards SUSI it is unclear how they can or will recover this.

I'd suggest everyone getting advice from MABS on the issue.

Bloodfued wrote: »

I responded by email saying that it was their mistake therefore their responsibility not mine.

I got an email back which was a direct copy and paste from the letter and also to send them back the 'declaration form' which basically looks for my course details, pps no. etc.

I have no intention of giving them my info(although they have it all on file already so why would they to ask for it again - typical SUSI).

I have since replied again asking how to appeal this and I am waiting for them to get back to me.

I wonder how many people have been effected by this?

65 apparently. we have to be the 65 unluckiest people because im pretty sure every postgrad who applied made this same "mistake". In the application form (i found mine in an old email) it says "please check to guidance notes carefully" in the independent/dependent section .... the guidance notes mention nothing about first point of entry to a post leaving cert course or any of that ****e. It just says over 23 on 1st October the year before starting the course, which is the same thing it says on the student finance website, the citizens info website and the susi website back in 2012. How in any way is this our fault?

http://www.thejournal.ie/susi-post-graduate-grants-student-recovery-1269059-Jan2014/

I still have one semester left of my course, Im definitely not giving them back the money from last year but im worried they wont give me the fees for this year and I wont be able to finish my course. Has anyone been reassessed as a dependent student?

Give me back the last 2 years of my life susi and ill give you your money

freewilli88 wrote: »

Interesting, and also thanks for the links.
Would these have been uploaded and unchanged since 2011/2012?

Its all well and good to have the info in this document but I would love to see the information they were putting in front of us during the application process, i.e on the website proper (and not in the encyclopedia of terms and conditions), document communication etc etc. I hope I can find any pdfs I may have saved during my application because its unlikely anyone would have that!

In any case, they are chasing a lost cause! I wouldnt likely have the money to pay them back 2000 as Im still looking for work and theyl be hard pushed chasing me up for it as well! Theres people, possibly me included that may not have been in a financial position to complete a course without this grant, so to try and take it back is a disgrace! Is this nonsense happening to people who are still in college? that would be shameful!

yep still in college and they're not paying me for this year, and trying to get back money for last year. Do they think I have €11,000 just hanging around? The worst thing is I was 2 years out of college when I started, I would've just waited another year if I'd known about this.

mitosis wrote: »

If you get something you are not entitled to it is not yours, even if given in error. The correct way for them to resolve this is to treat it as a loan with a small repayment over a long period. So I suggest reaching an arrangement with them to pay €10 per month or something. That way, even if they can manage to get legal procedings against someone (which I doubt they could) the courts will laugh them out.

I can understand where you're coming from but this is not as simple as you think. No money was actually given to us because there are no maintainence grants available anymore for postgraduate courses- they are just full or partial exemptions from the fees, which are paid directly to the colleges. So the idea of 'recovering' the money is ridiciulous- we never had it to begin with.

I think that in the rare event that SUSI were to get their lawyers after us, we could rely on the doctrine of promissory estoppel to stop them from recovering the money (I haven't studied law but used to be a note-taker in a few law classes).

Basically where you act in reliance of a promise, but then the person/organisation who made the promise decides to go back on it, promissory estoppel can force them to keep to their word. We are all students who would have qualified for a full or partial maintenance grant if our courses were undergraduate. So, given the information that we got on the website and from SUSI's advisors, as well as the fact that we did, in fact, get fee exemptions, I think the court would side with the students. I certainly wouldn't have decided to do a masters at all if I wasn't confident that I would get the fee exemption, and would have had to drop out if I found out I would have to pay €6,000 in fees. I had read up about my entitlement on the website and spoke to an advisor from SUSI. Neither of those sources said anything about this obscure rule, and I think it would be unreasonable if we were expected to find it out for ourselves when the SUSI assessors didn't even know about it until now.

Promissory estoppel: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Promissory+Estoppel

Eveam58 wrote: »

I also received a similar letter from SUSI claiming that I was ineligible to apply last year as an independent mature student as I did not comply with the three year rule and now they are looking for the cost of the fees they covered for me from last year.
This is just a horrible situation, I don't have access to my parent's income records and now I'm faced with the possibility of having to drop out of higher education when I'm nearly half way through my course. If this requirement was highlighted in my initial application I certainly wouldn't have proceeded with the course. I am really unsure as to where I stand this year as it's been three years since I finished the plc course, so because its too late to put in a fresh grant application will my application renewal will automatically be refused?

Any advice would be appreciated!

Speak to your student union

Recieved same or similiar to everyone here. In the second year of my postgrad. I've explained to them on the phone recently that I no longer want to deal with them. I'm lucky in the sense that the second year is now being industry sponsored and therefore my fees are covered. I have no neccesity for the second fee contribution of 2000€. So that leaves me with the prospect of a reassessment for my first years fee contribution, a measly 2000€ ( measly in comparison to undergraduate fees and maintinence). To say the least I intend to give them as much hassle as they have I. I agree with others on this thread. Contact as many related organisations or relevent representatives as possible. I intend to make this disgrace public by any means, they deserve to be named and shamed. Most importantly I will lead them down a process as lengthy as theres.... from a financial point of view trying to recoup fees is simply moronic, in most cases the resulting legal costs will surpass by far anything they can possibly gain.
Final point would be that I find it hard to believe all postgrad applications from 2012 and 2013 where audited, does that mean the unlucky few where chosen from a hat...

I asked for clarification on some of those points and got this reply (she was very quick to reply and quite helpful):

"I understand your feelings toward SUSI, we have experienced the same inconsistencies through the helpdesk. On this issue though we are dealing with the top management so there is greater understanding.

When you reapply you will need to provide information on the year before your Postgrad so this should show how you were living away from home and paid your own bills etc. The same information you would have sent previously.
The issue is to do with the Grant Scheme itself. It says that unless you take a 3 year gap you keep the same 'status' of dependence/independence when applying. Though you apply under this status you are then assessed and this is where you are changed to independent if you are eligible.

What we are advising students to do is to go ahead with reapplying and get reassessed. Should SUSI make a decision that changes the grant you and others have been awarded we will then meet with them to seek resolutions again and take further action if needed."

what I want to know is why we weren't provided with this information already? Im not sure what to do now

goldengee wrote: »

I asked for clarification on some of those points and got this reply (she was very quick to reply and quite helpful):

"I understand your feelings toward SUSI, we have experienced the same inconsistencies through the helpdesk. On this issue though we are dealing with the top management so there is greater understanding.

When you reapply you will need to provide information on the year before your Postgrad so this should show how you were living away from home and paid your own bills etc. The same information you would have sent previously.
The issue is to do with the Grant Scheme itself. It says that unless you take a 3 year gap you keep the same 'status' of dependence/independence when applying. Though you apply under this status you are then assessed and this is where you are changed to independent if you are eligible.

What we are advising students to do is to go ahead with reapplying and get reassessed. Should SUSI make a decision that changes the grant you and others have been awarded we will then meet with them to seek resolutions again and take further action if needed."

what I want to know is why we weren't provided with this information already? Im not sure what to do now

As far as im concerned SUSI have all the information they required to assess me as independent for 12/13 year so to supply them with this material again as USI suggest is just not going to happen. The pain I went through for months providing them with the documentation and in one instance they had lost all my stuff and requested it all be sent again. If I understand correctly USI think that if we offer up parents income details to SUSI but consider our situation was independent then they would consider us independent? 1. SUSI are ruthless and incompetent so they will chance their arm as much as possible to get anything out of us and 2. if this was the case, they have the info already to see our situations were independent and we should not be held accountable for mistakes they made.

Take it like a man SUSI! 65 obviously financially struggling students are hardly worth chasing in an effort to salvage a shocking first year in operation! Just improve your system and recover a reputation through reduced future heartache for students! It might be more understandable if there were multiples of thousands of students awarded thousands of euro in contribution grants each but to chase just 65 is pitiful and shambolic!

Also, in a recent correspondence they have given me a 7th of feb deadline to be reassessed as a dependent! Anyone else get this deadline? I genuinely dont plan to apply to be reassessed as a dependent! theres no point, I know the household income threshold would have been exceeded (though not by much) so its a pointless step for me and a step closer for SUSI to get their incompetent way so why bother! They never made ANYTHING easy for us and now they want us to enter crippling debt to save their face. I think not!!

freewilli88 wrote: »

As far as im concerned SUSI have all the information they required to assess me as independent for 12/13 year so to supply them with this material again as USI suggest is just not going to happen. The pain I went through for months providing them with the documentation and in one instance they had lost all my stuff and requested it all be sent again. If I understand correctly USI think that if we offer up parents income details to SUSI but consider our situation was independent then they would consider us independent? 1. SUSI are ruthless and incompetent so they will chance their arm as much as possible to get anything out of us and 2. if this was the case, they have the info already to see our situations were independent and we should not be held accountable for mistakes they made.

Take it like a man SUSI! 65 obviously financially struggling students are hardly worth chasing in an effort to salvage a shocking first year in operation! Just improve your system and recover a reputation through reduced future heartache for students! It might be more understandable if there were multiples of thousands of students awarded thousands of euro in contribution grants each but to chase just 65 is pitiful and shambolic!

Also, in a recent correspondence they have given me a 7th of feb deadline to be reassessed as a dependent! Anyone else get this deadline? I genuinely dont plan to apply to be reassessed as a dependent! theres no point, I know the household income threshold would have been exceeded (though not by much) so its a pointless step for me and a step closer for SUSI to get their incompetent way so why bother! They never made ANYTHING easy for us and now they want us to enter crippling debt to save their face. I think not!!

I'm confused. They want to now assess you as dependent not independent.

ironingman wrote: »

I completely agree. I won't be supplying any documentation for reassessment. I queried the SUSI forum here on Boards asking do they intend to follow through on the recoup threat and if so by what means. Below is the reply.


"If the grant has been awarded to someone who is not eligible, then this will be recouped. As this is case dependent, each applicant will have a different time for repayment. A payment plan will be set up for those who are required to repay maintenance payments. Fee payments will be recouped directly from the college.

There are two options available to students who have received a recoupment letter, these are to repay the money or not to. If repayment is not made then the matter will be taken through legal proceedings.

If you have a query specific to your own application and would like to discuss it further with us, please private message us with the following details:

- (W) Reference number
- Date of birth
- Address
- Your mother's maiden name

If you have any further queries, please don't hesitate to contact us.

Kind regards,
Shane,
SUSI HelpDesk"

My attention was drawn in particular to recouping fees. Their plan is to do this directly from the college.
I will be asking the college today if they are aware of this and if they will be co-operating.
For me having already graduated from the first year of studies with a Graduate Diploma and now in the Masters course I can't see how they can get anything back from a course I have effectively finished and graduated from.
I'll update later with my findings from the college.

I spoke to my college today about this and told them about the above Boards.ie statement from SUSI. It was the first that the staff in the fees office had heard of it. Eyebrows were raised, let's say. They were totally bemused and said that payment of fees back to SUSI/local authorities was not something that had been done before and that it would be a new departure if it were to happen. They said that they also wouldn't be pursuing students for the fees.

My understanding of Irish Law is basic at best but I think this may fall under the category of a 'Uni-Lateral Mistake' on the part of SUSI.

A simplified definition is;

"Unilateral mistake occurs where one party is mistaken as to the terms of the agreement, the other party is aware of the mistake but proceeds to execute the agreement anyway."

In this specific case, grant applicants supplied SUSI with accurate information/documentation. SUSI reviewed what was supplied and should have deemed the applicant ineligible but awarded the grants anyway.

Maybe someone a little more knowledgeable of the law could double check this point?

mobrienCFR wrote: »

My understanding of Irish Law is basic at best but I think this may fall under the category of a 'Uni-Lateral Mistake' on the part of SUSI.

A simplified definition is;

"Unilateral mistake occurs where one party is mistaken as to the terms of the agreement, the other party is aware of the mistake but proceeds to execute the agreement anyway."

In this specific case, grant applicants supplied SUSI with accurate information/documentation. SUSI reviewed what was supplied and should have deemed the applicant ineligible but awarded the grants anyway.

Maybe someone a little more knowledgeable of the law could double check this point?

The only problem with that is it's a part of contract law and the agreement isn't a contract, as far as I can see. For there to be a contract there needs to be consideration- in other words, we would all need to have given SUSI something of economic value in exchange for the fee grant. As it stands, it's just a one-sided promise. So I don't think it would be covered under contract law, but equity would intervene- more specifically, promissory estoppel. I wrote to SUSI outlining that doctrine but they didn't respond, I was just sent that letter with the Feb 7th deadline, which I'm obviously going to ignore as I think everyone should.

My understanding from previous posts is that SUSI will be trying to recoup the fee grants from the college, is that right? I can't see the colleges accepting that and then having to pursue students for money.

I got same letter...now first: this wasnt my mistake so I think it should be their problem not mine, they have all my documents already, why should I have to send them again??
Also, I find this really awful: "The organisation confirmed that following an audit 65 students have received these letters, less than one per cent of the 40,000 grants awarded.". Really? We are less than one per cent and they have special unit for that??

Source: http://www.thejournal.ie/susi-post-graduate-grants-student-recovery-1269059-Jan2014/