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Dept paying (not entitled to) allowances....then taking it back. A warning!

  • 09-10-2014 9:09pm
    #1
    IrishTeacher
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭


    Sorry for the terrible thread title. Couldn't word it properly.

    Basically just want to highlight this as it may be relevant for anyone who graduated since 2012. I was talking to payroll this week about my address. The guy noted I wasn't getting the Dip allowance but was getting the Masters allowance. You're not entitled to the masters allowance if you're not entitled to the Dip. But you are entitled to the Degree allowance. So I'm getting money I'm not entitled to, and they want it back.

    We figured out this is a flaw in the DES system. And there has to be way more people than just me this is happening to. He has seen people lose entire lump sums after 35 years service as they were getting something they were not entitled to. There's no point in trying to hide here, they'll get the money back whatever way they want.

    I didn't tell anyone I had a masters, didn't send in transcripts, didn't tell Teaching Council. I knew I wasn't entitled to it so didn't waste the time. But every year schools are asked to send in the qualifications for their teachers, and they found out that way, and duly started paying me.

    There's nothing in the DES system that tells them this person is not entitled to this money, they just pay it.

    Oh! And it goes on the payslip as DEGREE ALLOWANCE. So for the past two years I've stupidly (!) been presuming that degree allowance meant BA degree allowance. It can also stand for Masters Degree Allowance. I am entitled to a degree allowance.

    So there you have it. I would say get it checked if you have a masters and are not entitled to the allowance. If I'd have left this go I'd have owed more than the €1k or so I now owe.
    Tagged:


Comments

  • #2
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,475 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    Then you contact the DES and agree to repay ooohhh, €2 per paycheque.


  • #3
    IrishTeacher
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭IrishTeacher


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    Then you contact the DES and agree to repay ooohhh, €2 per paycheque.

    What do you think my reason for posting this was?


  • #4
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,381 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    So you were getting an allowance you weren't entitled to, you knew you were getting it and weren't entitled to it, and now that the DES have copped on to this fact, you are put out that you have to pay it back.

    Why shouldn't they ask for the money back?


  • #5
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    It's happening frequently. . . They're going back seeking to find money wherever they can.

    II'd say they are only contacting those who them money rather than the other way around.

    A colleague received a phone call stating he owed them 2 and a half grand. . . .for being on the wrong point on the scale.

    During the conversation he was told he was "lucky". . . as some have been contacted and told they owed 40-50 grand.


  • #6
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    So you were getting an allowance you weren't entitled to, you knew you were getting it and weren't entitled to it, and now that the DES have copped on to this fact, you are put out that you have to pay it back.

    Why shouldn't they ask for the money back?

    Are they arranging for the tax paid on that income to be returned. . .

    F them - Their mistake.

    I wouldn't pay them. . . Or I'd pay them as another poster put it . . . At €2 a pay check.

    "Take it out of the free S&S" would be my response . . . After which they'd hear the sound of a disconnected phone.


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  • #7
    IrishTeacher
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭IrishTeacher


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    So you were getting an allowance you weren't entitled to, you knew you were getting it and weren't entitled to it, and now that the DES have copped on to this fact, you are put out that you have to pay it back.

    Why shouldn't they ask for the money back?

    I had absolutely no clue that I was getting money I wasn't entitled to. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
    The payslip only says Degree Allowance. I am entitled to that. But I was getting a Masters Allowance. I presumed the allowance I was getting was a BA allowance.

    I'm just saying, this is common. People are being caught for big amounts.


  • #8
    TheDriver
    Registered Users Posts: 12,390 ✭✭✭✭TheDriver


    Peter Flynt wrote: »
    Are they arranging for the tax paid on that income to be returned. . .

    F them - Their mistake.

    I wouldn't pay them. . . Or I'd pay them as another poster put it . . . At €2 a pay check.

    "Take it out of the free S&S" would be my response . . . After which they'd hear the sound of a disconnected phone.

    in fairness Peter, you think that would solve it. They then would write you a sarky letter and start taking it from your pay packet which unfortunately you wont have a leg to stand on.
    OP is giving good advice as i have heard people caught with things like widows and orphans part of pension and suddenly cant retire due to a bill.


  • #9
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    TheDriver wrote: »
    in fairness Peter, you think that would solve it. They then would write you a sarky letter and start taking it from your pay packet which unfortunately you wont have a leg to stand on.
    OP is giving good advice as i have heard people caught with things like widows and orphans part of pension and suddenly cant retire due to a bill.

    I'm not sure they can legally do that. . but hey. . If they can start taking property charges from your pay-packet then you're probably right.

    I'd definitely visit a lawyer and seek legal advice.

    The mistake is on their part and it shouldn't be a case of the DES deciding how much you pay and when.


  • #10
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    TheDriver wrote: »
    OP is giving good advice as i have heard people caught with things like widows and orphans part of pension and suddenly cant retire due to a bill.

    What do you mean? I've nothing about widows or orphans on my payslip. Should I be paying that? :eek:

    OP is making a valid point, total flaw in the system. We should all be aware of what we are/are not paying and being paid. DES is not an employer that looks out for its employees. I don't know why we're all so quick to attack other teachers here.


  • #11
    happywithlife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭happywithlife


    Their payslips in general are terrible anyway I find
    You'd want a degree in the mysterious world of acronyms to understand half of the deductions :-(


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  • #12
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭solerina


    dory wrote: »
    What do you mean? I've nothing about widows or orphans on my payslip. Should I be paying that? :eek:

    OP is making a valid point, total flaw in the system. We should all be aware of what we are/are not paying and being paid. DES is not an employer that looks out for its employees. I don't know why we're all so quick to attack other teachers here.


    You are paying widows and orphans, its down as Sp & Ch now (spouses & children).....bloody insurance policy we were given no choice about joining !!


  • #13
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    solerina wrote: »
    You are paying widows and orphans, its down as Sp & Ch now (spouses & children).....bloody insurance policy we were given no choice about joining !!

    Personally I wouldnt mind helping out a colleague/family out at a time of bereavement!

    I would expect to be able to access info as to how the fund is managed though. Or is it all thrown into the tax pot, with payments coming out from another fund?


  • #14
    solerina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,433 ✭✭✭solerina


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Personally I wouldnt mind helping out a colleague/family out at a time of bereavement!

    I would expect to be able to access info as to how the fund is managed though. Or is it all thrown into the tax pot, with payments coming out from another fund?

    I have an objection to being forced into paying life assurance...yes if I die my spouse will be looked after, but it should be our own choice to take out this policy, we should not be forced into it (it adds up to quite a bit over your career)


  • #15
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Ya every week I listen to a teacher giving out about it in school as shes not married and won't be having kids... although at the same table I know there is a teacher who I presume would have benefited from it but bites her tongue (and thats her own private business)
    Sad thing is, I keep telling her she can claim it back when she retires but she won't listen.
    Same woman never bothers to vote on union ballots and says she doesn't care about CP or HR nonsense yet she's out thousands because of it!

    I can appreciate that it is mandatory and it adds up over a career, but greater good and all that (as long as the fund is fairly run!!).

    Same as with new revised sick pay arrangements, loads of us never think we'll get sick and dont have salary protection/life insurance. Having seen things go really bad for some colleagues recently I don't mind contributing a few quid if it means their family aren't stung as much when the bills arrive.

    Pension levy/USC/PAYE..... now theres something I have issue with.


  • #16
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    Just thought there, at least 5 people I knew in college had an MA, sure there were loads. You needed it to get into the Dip if you didn't have a first class honours degree. They're all probably being paid an allowance they're not entitled to and they don't know they're being paid. Going to owe a lot of money some day. But of course the unions won't have any interest in these newbie teachers.


  • #17
    eishaa
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭eishaa


    Armelodie wrote: »
    Ya every week I listen to a teacher giving out about it in school as shes not married and won't be having kids... although at the same table I know there is a teacher who I presume would have benefited from it but bites her tongue (and thats her own private business)
    Sad thing is, I keep telling her she can claim it back when she retires but she won't listen.

    You can only get a refund of the scps if you are a member of the original scheme and single, divorced or widowed at retirement. If you are a member of the revised scheme you will not receive a refund.

    OP the department will recoup the overpayment but you have options on how you wish to repay this - set deductions from salary at an amount you agree to, in one lumpsum payment. Contact payroll and ask them what repayment options are available to you - you can always ask to speak to the SO or HEO dealing with your school. It's not nice to get a bill like that bit at least it was noticed now and not at retirement and you should possibly be entitled to a tax refund on this money


  • #18
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    Slightly OT but does anyone know what the terms/conditions/payout is on the spouses and children?


  • #19
    eishaa
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭eishaa


    mirrorwall14 wrote: »
    Slightly OT but does anyone know what the terms/conditions/payout is on the spouses and children?

    Spouse (must be married) would receive approximately half of what teachers pension would be. Dependent children under age of 16 or 22 if in full time education would receive one third of spouses pension for each of first three eligible children.


  • #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    eishaa wrote: »
    Spouse (must be married) would receive approximately half of what teachers pension would be. Dependent children under age of 16 or 22 if in full time education would receive one third of spouses pension for each of first three eligible children.

    And how much of your salary does this cost? I'm in a scheme like this, and it costs about 1.5% of my salary, tax-deductible. In the event that I shuffle off this mortal coil, my family also receives a year and a half of my salary, and I've paid extra into another scheme to bring that up to 4 years. To be honest, I consider it all cheap at the price.

    Membership of these schemes wasn't always mandatory. I know three widows in their 70s who are spending their old age in really difficult financial circumstances because their husbands didn't bother their arses to pay into their optional schemes back in the day - and nobody bothered to tell the women in question until it was too late and the tight-fisted gits were in the ground.


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