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Pleas vote 4 no - we have already been domesticated in Germany

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  • 11-06-2008 9:26pm
    #1
    Vote4NoGermany
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭


    Hello Neighbours

    I am writing you from the middle of Germany. I am 28 years old and my girlfriend besides me is currently executing works in the household - quite normal you would think.

    But I as a German are already domesticated and treated like a slave by my corrupt authoritarian rulers who decided to force a new currency on me and take my new freedoms away and that although I appreciated my new freedoms since I raised in communism (eastern part of Germany).

    You have the right to vote on the 12th. Please vote for my loved ones here in SACHSEN-ANHALT. We are not allowed to vote against this EU-TYRANNY (just everyone knows).

    I love your people and your dairy products ;). You are really nice even if you have no standing army (sorry 4 this one ;)).

    Please visit my (German) blog http://www.propagandaschock.blogspot.com to see that I am no tinfoil hat but have reasonable concerns for all Germans. Please help us in the fight against the EU-Dictatorship that is arising rapidly and vote no.

    Thanks and take care!

    Faithfully
    Bugs


Comments

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    #2
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Just fyi, Germany has made referenda illegal because they were a tool the nazis used to gain power. So he is not being denied a vote by his government but by his constituiton. That doesn't reflect on any concernes he might have but if he want's an issue dealt with he should deal with his Government and not be asking us to do something we can't.


  • Options
    #3
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    Vote4NoGermany wrote: »
    Hello Neighbours

    I am writing you from the middle of Germany. I am 28 years old and my girlfriend besides me is currently executing works in the household - quite normal you would think.

    But I as a German are already domesticated and treated like a slave by my corrupt authoritarian rulers who decided to force a new currency on me and take my new freedoms away and that although I appreciated my new freedoms since I raised in communism (eastern part of Germany).

    You have the right to vote on the 12th. Please vote for my loved ones here in SACHSEN-ANHALT. We are not allowed to vote against this EU-TYRANNY (just everyone knows).

    I love your people and your dairy products ;). You are really nice even if you have no standing army (sorry 4 this one ;)).

    Please visit my (German) blog http://www.propagandaschock.blogspot.com to see that I am no tinfoil hat but have reasonable concerns for all Germans. Please help us in the fight against the EU-Dictatorship that is arising rapidly and vote no.

    Thanks and take care!

    Faithfully
    Bugs
    I personally think that it's such a pity that all EU citizens didn't get to vote on this very important document because of a name-change, but there you go :(

    Expect many replies saying that what your country does is your business. But it really is awful for ye though.

    Edit: Sink you were aware I assume that they were going to have to vote on the constitution. (Am I wrong here?)


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    #4
    PH01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,120 ✭✭✭PH01


    sink wrote: »
    Germany has made referenda illegal because they were a tool the nazis used to gain power.

    Sounds like a good idea. Maybe we should do that here?


  • Options
    #5
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Edit: Sink you were aware I assume that they were going to have to vote on the constitution. (Am I wrong here?)

    You are wrong. The did ratify it by parliament.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_European_Constitution#Ratification


  • Options
    #6
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Sorry I'm voting No but I dont think outside influences should effect peoples decisions. This as much as I sympathize is an issue for you to raise with your government. Which I strongly suggest you do.


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    #7
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    micmclo wrote: »
    Go on, got anything else you want to say about our country?

    Man you have to allow for banter lost in translation which may be the case here. I doubt the guy intentionally insulted us while imploring for our help.


  • Options
    #8
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    sink wrote: »
    You are wrong. The did ratify it by parliament.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_European_Constitution#Ratification
    Ok i'm not going to argue this point - it's not important
    but all your link says is that they were talking about changing their constitution to allow a vote and then on the diagram "referendum postponed indefinately". That doesn't exactly equal parliament passed it, but that doesn't really matter atm


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    #9
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Ok i'm not going to argue this point - it's not important
    but all your link says is that they were talking about changing their constitution to allow a vote and then on the diagram "referendum postponed indefinately". That doesn't exactly equal parliament passed it, but that doesn't really matter atm

    As well it's not important but they did actually ratify fully. If you look at the map of Europe you will see Germany is in medium green, meaning ratified through parliament.


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    #10
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Fuer meine Freunden durch ganz Europa, Ich werde nein waehlen ;)


  • Options
    #11
    johnnyq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 641 ✭✭✭johnnyq


    sink wrote: »
    As well it's not important but they did actually ratify fully. If you look at the map of Europe you will see Germany is in medium green, meaning ratified through parliament.

    Sorry sink, i was looking at poland not germany d'oh!


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    #12
    BMH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 804 ✭✭✭BMH


    micmclo wrote: »
    Go on, got anything else you want to say about our country?
    Christ...


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    #13
    Popel
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Popel


    "All state authority emanates from the people. It is exercised by the people by means of elections and voting and by separate legislative, executive and judicial organs."

    Article 20 (Basic principles of state order, right to resist).

    German Constitution

    The german constitution has been directly broken, both in the treaty, and if it was passed directly by the parliament, in the constitution too. Not only this, but Germany´s constitution does not allow its army to enter territory other than its own...EU law has pulled rank on the german constitution and the German army has entered both Yugoslavian and Afghanistan fields of war. Both of these things were illegal, and could only happen due to some grey areas in terms of EU law versus German law.

    The Lisbon Treaty introduces this grey area to Ireland too, and the Irish constitution will no longer be a basic law and rule, but instead a law that may be broken if the EU deems it so. That is...the unelected EU, as shown by Germany´s denial of their constitutional right to vote "by separate legislative, executive and judicial organs".


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    #14
    BMH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 804 ✭✭✭BMH


    Popel wrote: »
    "All state authority emanates from the people. It is exercised by the people by means of elections and voting and by separate legislative, executive and judicial organs."

    Article 20 (Basic principles of state order, right to resist).

    German Constitution

    The german constitution has been directly broken, both in the treaty, and if it was passed directly by the parliament, in the constitution too.
    You gave your government a mandate by electing them. The government is the "legislative organ" that your constitution refers to.
    Not only this, but Germany´s constitution does not allow its army to enter territory other than its own...EU law has pulled rank on the german constitution and the German army has entered both Yugoslavian and Afghanistan fields of war. Both of these things were illegal, and could only happen due to some grey areas in terms of EU law versus German law.
    Again, your government, nothing to do with the EU.


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    #15
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Popel wrote: »
    "All state authority emanates from the people. It is exercised by the people by means of elections and voting and by separate legislative, executive and judicial organs."

    Article 20 (Basic principles of state order, right to resist).

    German Constitution

    The german constitution has been directly broken, both in the treaty, and if it was passed directly by the parliament, in the constitution too.

    I'm no lawyer but that passage does not preclude the people of Germany from passing responsibility for separate areas to an inter-governmental body, so long as it is carried out by a majority under German parliamentary law.

    Popel wrote: »
    Not only this, but Germany´s constitution does not allow its army to enter territory other than its own...EU law has pulled rank on the german constitution and the German army has entered both Yugoslavian and Afghanistan fields of war. Both of these things were illegal, and could only happen due to some grey areas in terms of EU law versus German law.

    I would like to see any evidence of this. Germany is a member of NATO since it's foundation (West Germany). It would not have been able to fulfil it's obligation to the common defence block if it's military wasn't able to enter another countries. How would it be able to come to the defence of an ally?


  • Options
    #16
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Popel wrote: »
    "All state authority emanates from the people. It is exercised by the people by means of elections and voting and by separate legislative, executive and judicial organs."

    Article 20 (Basic principles of state order, right to resist).

    German Constitution

    The german constitution has been directly broken, both in the treaty, and if it was passed directly by the parliament, in the constitution too. Not only this, but Germany´s constitution does not allow its army to enter territory other than its own...EU law has pulled rank on the german constitution and the German army has entered both Yugoslavian and Afghanistan fields of war. Both of these things were illegal, and could only happen due to some grey areas in terms of EU law versus German law.

    The Lisbon Treaty introduces this grey area to Ireland too, and the Irish constitution will no longer be a basic law and rule, but instead a law that may be broken if the EU deems it so. That is...the unelected EU, as shown by Germany´s denial of their constitutional right to vote "by separate legislative, executive and judicial organs".

    I realize that and some of us are voting no partially for those reasons, though I don't believe Ireland has ever truly been neutral, I still feel we have a right to not get involved in other Nation's conflicts something even the yes side has admitted we would be expected to if an EU country was attacked. Still you really should focus on raising these points with the German public and sort that issue out yourselves (Replacing the government if needs be) rather than ask us to block a treaty for you which in the long run won't fix your core issue. Again I do sympathize.


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    #17
    Popel
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Popel


    Firstly, I´m Irish, though thanks for the support, on behalf of the German populace.

    Secondly, to quote "Germany is a member of NATO since it's foundation (West Germany). It would not have been able to fulfil it's obligation to the common defence block if it's military wasn't able to enter another countries. How would it be able to come to the defence of an ally?"

    This obligation is in direct opposition to the German constitution, it is illegal, and it is only with such Grey-area-filled as this one that ANYONE can argue that the actions of the german government is not a criminal offence.

    Article 26 (Ban on preparing a war of aggression)

    1. Activities tending and undertaken with the intent to disturb peaceful relations between nations, especially to prepare for aggressive war, are unconstitutional. They shall be made a punishable offense.

    Therefore, the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty by the German Government is ILLEGAL, under their own constitution, which was put in place to never allow such dominance of power as the Nazi Regime acquired. What is this Lisbon Treaty doing? It is making this fundamental law of the German state meaningless, once some basically anonymous bureaucrats pass a ´higher´ law. The Lisbon Treaty will steal this same basic law from Ireland, and will give all such protective power, and governance, to what has been proven, an illusiary, arrogant, and power-hungry force...no, no, not Hitler this time...actually, it´s the EU!


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    #18
    sink
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Popel wrote: »
    Firstly, I´m Irish, though thanks for the support, on behalf of the German populace.

    Secondly, to quote "Germany is a member of NATO since it's foundation (West Germany). It would not have been able to fulfil it's obligation to the common defence block if it's military wasn't able to enter another countries. How would it be able to come to the defence of an ally?"

    This obligation is in direct opposition to the German constitution, it is illegal, and it is only with such Grey-area-filled as this one that ANYONE can argue that the actions of the german government is not a criminal offence.

    If that is the case and you accept that NATO was formed before the military and social aspects of the EC (known as the EU) were formed. The you also must accept that it is a fallacy to attribute Germany breaking it's constitutional neutrality to any law of the EU/EC.

    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Article 26 (Ban on preparing a war of aggression)
    1. Activities tending and undertaken with the intent to disturb peaceful relations between nations, especially to prepare for aggressive war, are unconstitutional. They shall be made a punishable offense.

    Therefore, the ratification of the Lisbon Treaty by the German Government is ILLEGAL, under their own constitution, which was put in place to never allow such dominance of power as the Nazi Regime acquired. What is this Lisbon Treaty doing? It is making this fundamental law of the German state meaningless, once some basically anonymous bureaucrats pass a ´higher´ law. The Lisbon Treaty will steal this same basic law from Ireland, and will give all such protective power, and governance, to what has been proven, an illusiary, arrogant, and power-hungry force...no, no, not Hitler this time...actually, it´s the EU!

    I don't see anywhere in that article a ban on German forming non aggressive military alliances nor entering another territory for humanitarian/peacekeeping purposes.


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    #19
    Popel
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭Popel


    i´m getting sleepy, so i´m afraid i´m not going to go searching for any more constitutional articles for you...

    however, the german constitution, including the articles I quoted, were written before the founding of Nato, and the German parliament broke the law once they allowed troops enter Yugoslavia under this article, and my point was, Germany´s parliament chose to relenquish their sovereignity of constitution, and follow the shady rules which allowed EU law prevail over German law. The Lisbon Treaty will do the same to the Irish constitution, and to Irish law.

    please, search the german constitution yourself, as i have done this evening, and I am very certain the clause about entering foreign soil on non-peaceful-purposes is there somewhere... I´m not trying to squirm out of an argument, I am merely trying to get a good night sleep, but, it´s true, also to preced this with some knowledge that my voice was heard

    oh yeah, because i´m an irish citizen living abroad, I no longer have a right to vote in ANY country; not as a postal vote in ireland, and not as an Ausländer in Germany either...but that´s for another day.


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    #20
    darkman2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,633 ✭✭✭darkman2


    OP Ireland does have an army - not a big one though;)


    In the same way the French keep going on about Ireland's vote having to be yes - I disagree with outside influence on the no side aswell. I dont think either is helpful to be perfectly honest and its a bit inappropriate.


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    #21
    VoidStarNull
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭VoidStarNull


    Vote4NoGermany wrote: »
    Hello Neighbours

    You have the right to vote on the 12th. Please vote for my loved ones here in SACHSEN-ANHALT. We are not allowed to vote against this EU-TYRANNY (just everyone knows).

    Don't worry Bugs. My wife is German. She and her family and friends back in Germany are very anxious for Lisbon to be passed, and are gob-smacked that Ireland might vote NO.

    Since they outnumber you and your girlfriend, your votes are obviously cancelled out and I will be voting YES.


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    #22
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Wow cause that's definitely an accurate poll! FFS, really!! Germany needs to sort out it's own problems and we shouldn't be voting YES or NO because of them. Sad.


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    #23
    VoidStarNull
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭VoidStarNull


    I suppose I should have made it clear that my response was tongue in cheek.

    If we follow the OP's logic, and the general logic that some have proposed "that we are voting for all of Europe", then obviously we do need to start polling the population of Germany to figure out what to do today.


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    #24
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    VoidStarNull wrote: »
    I suppose I should have made it clear that my response was tongue in cheek.

    If we follow the OP's logic, and the general logic that some have proposed "that we are voting for all of Europe", then obviously we do need to start polling the population of Germany to figure out what to do today.

    That's fair enough so sorry man! Just get infuriated by people not looking at the issues pertaining to us rather than outside influences who should deal with their own issues even if I am sympathetic towards them (on both sides) instaed of asking us one way or another.

    Both sides really are missing the point here. It's not a majority vote and it's not our problem if people's governments pass these things without referendum. If we pass it, those saying we shouldn't have should focus inward and deal with their government that also passed it. If we don't other countries shouldn't winge that 3 million blocked a treaty for 200 million because it's NOT a majority vote. Every nation has to accept it unanimously.
    Whatever our decision is they should accept it as OUR RIGHT.


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    #25
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    BMH wrote: »
    Christ...

    yes he is lacking these days.
    Expect many replies saying that what your country does is your business. But it really is awful for ye though.

    yes European Union my Alpha Sierra Sierra


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    #26
    VoidStarNull
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭VoidStarNull


    johnnyq wrote: »
    Ok i'm not going to argue this point - it's not important
    but all your link says is that they were talking about changing their constitution to allow a vote and then on the diagram "referendum postponed indefinately". That doesn't exactly equal parliament passed it, but that doesn't really matter atm

    I can confirm on this point (via my german wife) that referenda are forbidden by the german constitution. And it does apparently have something to do with abuse of populist referenda by the nazis, but I don't know the details.


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    #27
    craichoe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭craichoe


    I think its a little bit ironic that the YES heads always bring up that the NO heads are screwing over the rest of europe and were being selfish not thinking about them.

    But then they turn around and say Germany is nothing to do with us, that their government is their problem.

    Nice .. way to look at our EU Neighbours.


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