Is it cruel to hold a small dog by the scruff?

the iceman come · 19-12-2009 4:36pm #1

I have a lovely little jackihuaua (cross jack russell chiuahua) 3 yrs old who has a lovely temprement,however sometimes he gets a bot spoiled and we let him sleep on our bed when its cold and let him eat with us and as well as his own dog food we give him some of our scraps etc(he would kill for sausages):D. Now he has developed this habit of snarling a bit when we try to put him out if it dosent suit him. He will tell us when he wants a wee and he will tell us if he simply wants some fresh air,but when we try to put him out and he dosent agree the snarling begins,even though he is quite small he is quite intimidating:eek:.
I have tried everything from shouting at him(makes him worse) to ignoring him when he does it but then he just thinks he has won.
Now today I have found the 1 thing that seems to work but I am a bit concerned it might be cruel. This morning when I awoke I wanted to put him out and he had just woke up himself so rather than going through all the usual rigmorole I simply picked him up by the scruff of the neck(he has ridicoulously loose skin in this area and it dosent hurt him of that I am certain) Dont ask me where I got this idea from maybe because I know cats dont mind it so I tried it on my little fella. Normally I would just carry him out but when he sees the kitchen door thats when he starts all the snarling,but today ...nothin:pac: he was literally as meek as a kitten and it was as if he was just totally paralysed! When I let him down in the garden he was bloody furious all barking and snarling at me so I just left him for a while and he calmed down. Later on we let him back in and just as an experiment I tried it again,and hey presto it worked again:pac: only difference was when I put him down this time he didnt as much as whimper at me and just went on his merry way quite happy in himself.
Does anyone else do this?
Why does it work so well?
It dosent hurt him as I have said but is it a little cruel anyway?
I dont want to hurt the little fellas feeling but it really seems to work,if you would like I will take a photo and show you how placid he is when I do this,infact I actually am thinking that he likes it!
Thats my story any constructive comments would be most welcome.

Whispered · 19-12-2009 5:26pm

Well done for recognising the problem and doing something about it. I'd say the temptation is there to let him away with it because he's so small.

I'm not sure about picking him up by the scruff, but you definately have the idea right. No messing, no conversation, you want him out and thats it. Could you do the same thing, but pick him up by the body?

doctor evil · 19-12-2009 7:53pm

I wouldn't be letting sleep in your bed or feed him scraps, he could get too big for his boots.

If you try to lift by his body (esp when he starts to growl) you increase the risk of getting a bite.

votejohn · 19-12-2009 9:44pm

Cesar Milan does grab dogs by the scruff of the neck as he says it reminds them of their mothers carrying them, and puts them into a relaxed state.

you know your dog, and if the working, its working!!

My friend has a chiuahua and he sometimes picks him up by the scruff and the dog doesnt mind it at all either.

Sigma Force · 19-12-2009 11:08pm

It sounds like the dog is getting mixed messages and it would be kinder to the dog to start treating him more like a pooch and so avoiding having to hold him by the scruff of the neck.

Dogs and cats hold their babies a certain way, and when they are babies they don't generally hold their babies once they are adults.

It's very tempting to baby and spoil a dog esp. a small dog, they seem so delicate and sorroful sometimes. Big mistake, the smaller the dog the more independant and stubborn they seem to be esp. because people baby them too much and then they get confused.

Best thing to do is never to be tempted to feed scraps, instead of bringing the dog to the bed get a snuggle safe heat pad to put in his bed at night. Small dogs like that can feel the cold so a heat pad is handy, they're available on zooplus.

No harm in enrolling him in classes though if you can, only one that uses humane methods. Would help with any behaviour problems and is fun as well.

As helen said it's probably your reaction rather than the way you are carrying him that is making the difference so ignoring the bad behaviour and rewarding the good, whilst holding him by the body.
Obviously you don't want to get bitten, having the dog used to more handling and random times of the day.

Let the dog know you are going to pick him up, by saying 'up' just before you do, having a big human looming over a little dog can be intimidating for them and some do get narky if they don't want to be disturbed.

I found the 'up' thing worked great when we got our pup he was starting to get a little fussed about being lifted despite his regular handling but he's well used to it now.

Make being picked up a nice experience, using treats perhaps. After you say 'up' and pick him up then give him a reward either a little treat or probably better just a 'good boy'.

The whole thing won't resolve itself unless you can harden your heart a bit though and become a bit more strict about snacks etc.

the iceman come · 20-12-2009 1:16am

votejohn wrote: »

Cesar Milan does grab dogs by the scruff of the neck as he says it reminds them of their mothers carrying them, and puts them into a relaxed state.

you know your dog, and if the working, its working!!

My friend has a chiuahua and he sometimes picks him up by the scruff and the dog doesnt mind it at all either.

Aw thats mad I didnt realise that about Cesar Millan makes me feel much better to think the dog whisperer does it at times,and yeah I absolutely think it makes sense that he would feel at ease when he is habdled in this way especially when you consider as you say that it is the way their mums carry them:). I have tried to carry him under his little body but as pointed out I generally get closer to a nip when I try that. It is so funny though he is such a quirky little man and I guess we do spoil him a bit much,but it is so easy to do cos we just love the little bugger!
He is so bloody clever as soon as he sees us running a bath he scrathes at the door and wants to get out,then we go to find him in the garden for his doggy bath,and do you think we can find him??Clever isnt the word!
Thanx all for the great replies will post a pic soon!

the iceman come · 20-12-2009 1:53am

Guinea pig,there are some crackin tips there thanx so much for your input,we have discussed in the past about getting some lessons and I think we need them as much as he does:D again many thanx!

Santrypad · 20-12-2009 3:45am

I dont think its cruel at all depending on how you do it.

My wife has a small terrier type dog that is `hers`, think he bout 5 or 6 but was a spoilt as could be, used to run up the stairs at night and hide then get onto the bed during the night or if he was already on it would refuse to get off.

I dont agree with dogs in the bed(mainly over the hairs)so I used to remove him and like you would get nipped snarled and growled at etc even by just coaxing him off, and it could have went on back and forth.

What I started to do was just grab him by the scruff and support him under the stomach with the other hand, he wasnt in pain and if also if he did decide to snap i had a hold of his collar/scuff.

Ive never hurt him but at this stage its just a matter of clicking the fingers and he is gone as he knows he is going anyway.

My advice is just be consistant, when you want him down you make sure he gets down snarling or not and over time it should get less dramtic.

lrushe · 20-12-2009 9:16pm

I've alway been of the mind that a dog is a dog regardless of the size, my Chihuahua is treated the same as my other two dogs, a Spitz and a Rottweiler. She eats what they eat, goes for the same walk they go on, sleeps where they sleep, the only exception is she has a coat in winter as she has such a short coat. I have on occasion picked her up by the scruff when putting her in the car or bath and she has never minded ie. she doesn't shy away or crouched down. People are often surprised to see her out walking with my other two on a cold, rainy day but she insists on coming with us, she doesn't like being carried or babied, she's an independant little soul, nobody told her she was only six inches tall

Sigma Force · 20-12-2009 10:18pm

There's a lot of debate on C Milans methods of dog training.
Another option is to start crate training from scratch.

the iceman come · 20-12-2009 10:46pm

lrushe wrote: »

I've alway been of the mind that a dog is a dog regardless of the size, my Chihuahua is treated the same as my other two dogs, a Spitz and a Rottweiler. She eats what they eat, goes for the same walk they go on, sleeps where they sleep, the only exception is she has a coat in winter as she has such a short coat. I have on occasion picked her up by the scruff when putting her in the car or bath and she has never minded ie. she doesn't shy away or crouched down. People are often surprised to see her out walking with my other two on a cold, rainy day but she insists on coming with us, she doesn't like being carried or babied, she's an independant little soul, nobody told her she was only six inches tall

Hey ,

cool post i know exactly what you mean about the winter coat i have 4 differing ones for my little chap also,otherwise he would freeze!

Jules · 21-12-2009 4:13am

Not considered cruel as far as i'm concerned as long as you support most of the weight with a hand under the bum... if ya get me.

iguana · 28-12-2009 1:56pm

Can I just suggest that if you do want to feed him scraps it is possible if you do it the 'right' way. First off be sure that what you are feeding the dog isn't poisonous to it, a lot of human foods are poisonous to dogs, for example a few raisins can send a dog into kidney failure.

Secondly if you have left over sausage, meat, lettuce, etc, that you want to give to the dog don't give it to the dog when you eat or immediately after you eat. Give it to him as part of his dinner or instead of a treat at a point where you would normally give him a treat. For example on xmas day there was some left over dinner and I left it by the sink until it was time for the dogs dinner and added it to their bowls. They loved it, I didn't have to waste food and it still lets them know that my dinner isn't their dinner so they aren't to be begging/demanding food from me.

the iceman come · 29-12-2009 3:33pm

thanks folks all great advice The little chap is really behaving himself now and as it happens he now just goes out when we tell him,no messing about ...and no need of the scruff treatment:), I dont know if he just learned after a week or so but along with us not feeding him directly from the table and basically him knowing who is top dog,we are getting on fine,again many thanks:)

Is it cruel to hold a small dog by the scruff?

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