How to be an accepting Catholic

crfcaio · 09-07-2012 9:19am #1

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting here!

So, as some of you might know, Catholicism in South America is HUGE - thank you (I guess) Spaniards and Portuguese colonizers -, and I was "raised" a Catholic - after all, I come from a country where almost 70% of its people are Catholics.

I sometimes feel like there's something missing in my life - I always thought it was religion and faith. The problem? Well, according to what I know, the bible says several things are wrong, include homosexuality. I am not homosexual, but I've met people who are, and there's nothing wrong with them, and I can't understand why God would create something that is against His will. Aren't all men made after His image?

So, for this reason, I've never dwelt deep enough in Catholicism - because of what it says is okay and what's not.

Is there any way I can exert the religion while still holding on to my personal opinions about certain subjects? I've always liked how being in a religious group - at least that's my idea of it - you don't feel "alone" anymore - there are people who share the same views and faith as you do.

Any and all help is appreciated.

Actor · 09-07-2012 9:55am

crfcaio wrote: »

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting here!

So, as some of you might know, Catholicism in South America is HUGE - thank you (I guess) Spaniards and Portuguese colonizers -, and I was "raised" a Catholic - after all, I come from a country where almost 70% of its people are Catholics.

I sometimes feel like there's something missing in my life - I always thought it was religion and faith. The problem? Well, according to what I know, the bible says several things are wrong, include homosexuality. I am not homosexual, but I've met people who are, and there's nothing wrong with them, and I can't understand why God would create something that is against His will. Aren't all men made after His image?

So, for this reason, I've never dwelt deep enough in Catholicism - because of what it says is okay and what's not.

Is there any way I can exert the religion while still holding on to my personal opinions about certain subjects? I've always liked how being in a religious group - at least that's my idea of it - you don't feel "alone" anymore - there are people who share the same views and faith as you do.

Any and all help is appreciated.

The Church have reasoned for a long time and come to the conclusion that homosexuality is morally wrong for good reason: the act involves the use of the sexual organs contrary to their design (i.e. self-gratuitous, non-reproductive actuation -- Buddhists also teach this), those of homosexual inclination have a greater risk of mental illness, and there are long-term physical side-effects of anal penetration; to name but a few. The Church recognises Platonic love between two of the same sex - but if this crosses over into homosexual acts, then a distortion of this love occurs and the physical aspects of the bond infect the collegiate relationship. There are many priests in Platonic love with their peers, but they are certainly not homosexuals.

It sounds to me that you are Catholic-by-name, yet reject its teachings. There is no such thing as an "accepting Catholic". You either are one or you aren't. Perhaps a Protestant church would be to your liking? There is a myriad of them for you to choose from.

I, as a Catholic, also have many friends who engage in homosexual acts. God gave us free will and I can only demonstrate to them that I believe that what they are doing is wrong by practicing my faith and trying to lead a good Christian life every day. They've never asked me straight-out about my feelings, nor do I care too much about what they get up to in the bedroom, as there are bigger moral issues currently facing humanity. It's the LGBT community who have a hang-up about the Church and make the most noise, not the other way around.

I was at Mass a couple of weeks ago and the priest spoke about a man who came to him looking to be baptised. The priest said sure, and after a couple of months, he was baptised into the Church. After a while, he said he wanted to be confirmed -- he accepted all the teachings of the church, except for one thing: the matter of transubstantiation. The priest said he could not be confirmed as a result of this (fair play to the priest). Many years later, the man came back and explained to the priest that he had experienced an extraordinary beauty when at Mass one day. He said that from that moment he realised that something transcendent was happening at the holy sacrifice of Mass and that he now fully believed in transubstantiation. He was baptised shortly thereafter. The priest is today a monseigneur.

What I'm trying to get at is this: if you're not in communion with the Church (i.e. accept all her well-thought-out teachings and are in a state of grace), then you ought not to receive Holy Communion. It never ceases to amaze me how holy my local congregation must be as they march up in their Sunday best to receive Holy Communion in the hand. I'd say I only ever receive a dozen times a year.

Gumbi · 09-07-2012 11:14am

Are you serious? It's due to the very stigma created by religion that gay people are afraid to walk down the street, opening holding the hand of another of the same sex. How dare you shift the blame on them.

Moreover, the fact that something is unnatural (I don't necessarily agree with this) or unhealthy doesn't doesn't give one the right to force one's beliefs on someone else.

OP, you seem like a genuine person. You can see past the bigotry of the CC. I will simply say this: look for something else to fill the hole left by religion. The morality of the CC, as you've aptly noticed, is, to say the least, lacking.

I'm interested to hear the views of other Catholics who are wholly accepting of homosexuality.

Doc Farrell · 09-07-2012 11:35am

crfcaio wrote: »

Is there any way I can exert the religion while still holding on to my personal opinions about certain subjects? .

Of course there is, the world is a big place. You have a duty to work things out for yourself. You won't find much wisdom here on boards as many posters are extremists. If you are easily influenced by others I would advise against reading this forum. Anonymity breeds bigotry.
Take your time and read about charities who help others. They will direct you properly. Homosexuality is only really being understood in this generation. Try not to be too swayed by extreme views on either side. Religion is supposed to be concerned with a deeper aspect of a person than their sexuality. Those who are obsessed with this subject are unwise.
Get involved with groups in the real world, but use your own intelligence and education constantly and wisely.

Benny_Cake · 09-07-2012 11:36am

OP, I'm from a Catholic background myself, and like you, I struggle to understand the same teachings. I can only say that I've come to the conclusion that you can only follow your conscience - I cannot accept that all homosexuality relationships are wrong. It would be very dishonest to say that I felt otherwise. Happily there are plenty of Christians who feel the same way. There is some great material regarding the scriptural basis available online which I'll post up when I get the chance. The late Rev. Peter Gomes, a Baptist who was professor of Christian Morality at Harvard Divinity School wrote quite a bit on the matter from a progressive perspective.

coffee_cake · 09-07-2012 11:44am

Actor wrote: »

The Church have reasoned for a long time and come to the conclusion that homosexuality is morally wrong for good reason: the act involves the use of the sexual organs contrary to their design (i.e. self-gratuitous, non-reproductive actuation -- Buddhists also teach this), .

the dalai lama might, buddhism in general does not

totus tuus · 09-07-2012 12:03pm

My husband and I couldn't have children of our own, and I was looking into the option of having IVF treatment. Believe me I would have done almost anything to have children of our own. Eventually I discovered that IVF was against my faith and what the moral implications of what IVF entails, one must have an informed conscience to make the right choice. My faith won! I couldn't in all conscience go for it. Instead, God sent me down a different path, adoption, and I couldn't have been more happier - I know that I made the right choice I could live with!

Jesus said we must take up our cross and follow Him!

eviltwin · 09-07-2012 12:20pm

I was raised Catholic and found it very hard to marry my faith with my liberal beliefs.

I know a lot of people are able to have points of views at odds with church teachings and still go to mass etc but I couldn't do that. I had to leave. That was about 10 ago now and I'm very glad I did it, things have changed in the years since I have left - my daughter came out earlier this year - and I couldn't be involved with a religion that has that view of one of the people I love most in this world.

I feel sorry for people whose faith holds them back or stops them from being all they can be.

I wish you the best of luck OP in whatever you decide to do and hope you find a path that works for you x

Gumbi · 09-07-2012 12:27pm

totus tuus wrote: »

My husband and I couldn't have children of our own, and I was looking into the option of having IVF treatment. Believe me I would have done almost anything to have children of our own. Eventually I discovered that IVF was against my faith and what the moral implications of what IVF entails, one must have an informed conscience to make the right choice. My faith won! I couldn't in all conscience go for it. Instead, God sent me down a different path, adoption, and I couldn't have been more happier - I know that I made the right choice I could live with!

Jesus said we must take up our cross and follow Him!

It seems to me like you would have gone down the IVF route if you hadn't known about the Church's teachings. One can conclude than you are therefore blindly following them - how is that healthy?

Actor · 09-07-2012 12:29pm

Gumbi wrote: »

It seems to me like you would have gone down the IVF route if you hadn't known about the Church's teachings. One can conclude than you are therefore blindly following them - how is that healthy?

The Church have thought long and hard about the issue of "disposing" of "unwanted" embryos. It's a moral minefield.

Fair play to totus tuus for following God's will.

Gumbi · 09-07-2012 12:34pm

Actor wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

It seems to me like you would have gone down the IVF route if you hadn't known about the Church's teachings. One can conclude than you are therefore blindly following them - how is that healthy?

The Church have thought long and hard about the issue of "disposing" of "unwanted" embryos. It's a moral minefield.

Fair play to totus tuus for following God's will.

First of all, that's not the point. From what I could extrapolate from the post, totus would have used IVF if it had not been for what the Church believes. How's that for thinking for oneself ^^ This kind of behaviour is dangerous, as has been demonstrated in Ireland in recent years.

I like the way you equated the beliefs of the Church with those of God.

Actor · 09-07-2012 12:34pm

Gumbi wrote: »

Are you serious? It's due to the very stigma created by religion that gay people are afraid to walk down the street, opening holding the hand of another of the same sex. How dare you shift the blame on them.

What? Where do the Church teach that it's ok to slander people?

I suppose you have medical evidence to back up your claim that homosexuals are more likely to suffer from mental health issues "due to the very stigma created by religion"? There are plenty of studies on the mental health of homosexual persons and they all point to increased levels of suicide, depression, anxiety, etc. Why this is the case is not clear. But certainly there's a correlation between homosexuality and mental health difficulties. To blindly claim that this is the church's fault really just emphasises your prejudices.

Actor · 09-07-2012 12:36pm

Gumbi wrote: »

First of all, that's not the point. From what I could extrapolate from the post, totus would have used IVF if it had not been for what the Church believes. How's that for thinking for oneself ^^ This kind of behaviour is dangerous, as has been demonstrated in Ireland in recent years.

"Thinking for oneself" does not always bring about the correct decision. This is why we consult professionals in our day-to-day lives. On moral issues, Catholics consult priests.

eviltwin · 09-07-2012 12:38pm

I think its so sad to read someone would give up on a dream of being able to have their own child because of religion.

Gumbi · 09-07-2012 12:39pm

Actor wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

Are you serious? It's due to the very stigma created by religion that gay people are afraid to walk down the street, opening holding the hand of another of the same sex. How dare you shift the blame on them.

What? Where do the Church teach that it's ok to slander people?

I suppose you have medical evidence to back up your claim that homosexuals are more likely to suffer from mental health issues "due to the very stigma created by religion"? There are plenty of studies on the mental health of homosexual persons and they all point to increased levels of suicide, depression, anxiety, etc. Why this is the case is not clear. But certainly there's a correlation between homosexuality and mental health difficulties. To blindly claim that this is the church's fault really just emphasises your prejudices.

Perhaps I misspoke. It is not my claim that the Church is to blame for all gay peoples' woes.

It seems to me that if not religion, homosexual people would be able to live a lot more freely in our society. They are denied rights based on what the Church believes.

Actor · 09-07-2012 12:39pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I think its so sad to read someone would give up on a dream of being able to have their own child because of religion.

What's "sad" about adopting a child?

What's even sadder is to see a child aborted due to the "lifestyle choices" of its parents.

Gumbi · 09-07-2012 12:41pm

Actor wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

First of all, that's not the point. From what I could extrapolate from the post, totus would have used IVF if it had not been for what the Church believes. How's that for thinking for oneself ^^ This kind of behaviour is dangerous, as has been demonstrated in Ireland in recent years.

"Thinking for oneself" does not always bring about the correct decision. This is why we consult professionals in our day-to-day lives. On moral issues, Catholics consult priests.

That was not my claim. But that's not the issue. Totus seems to have blindly adhered to the will of the Church. It is my claim that this is wholly unhealthy.

Gumbi · 09-07-2012 12:42pm

Actor wrote: »

eviltwin wrote: »

I think its so sad to read someone would give up on a dream of being able to have their own child because of religion.

What's "sad" about adopting a child?

What's even sadder is to see a child aborted due to the "lifestyle choices" of its parents.

Who said that was sad? What's sad is giving up on a dream of having one's own child based on the beliefs of the Church.

Actor · 09-07-2012 12:45pm

Gumbi wrote: »

That was not my claim. But that's not the issue. Totus seems to have blindly adhered to the will of the Church. It is my claim that this is wholly unhealthy.

"Unhealthy"? How does sticking to natural law and grounded moral principles affect ones health?

While you're at it, maybe you could let us know the psychological effects of guilt associated with letting an embryo be flushed down the loo? Why the need for so much post-abortion counseling? (oh yes, it's the nasty church's fault)

doctoremma · 09-07-2012 12:52pm

Actor wrote: »

While you're at it, maybe you could let us know the psychological effects of guilt associated with letting an embryo be flushed down the loo?

Point of order: aborted embryos are not "flushed down the loo".

eviltwin · 09-07-2012 12:52pm

People should be mature enough to think independently. If they decide something is "wrong" it should be because they have researched it, not because someone else says "because I say so".

Gumbi · 09-07-2012 12:53pm

Actor wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

That was not my claim. But that's not the issue. Totus seems to have blindly adhered to the will of the Church. It is my claim that this is wholly unhealthy.

"Unhealthy"? How does sticking to natural law and grounded moral principles affect ones health?

While you're at it, maybe you could let us know the psychological effects of guilt associated with letting an embryo be flushed down the loo? Why the need for so much post-abortion counseling? (oh yes, it's the nasty church's fault)

Unhealthy in that, ultimately, doing so does contribute positively to society. Like I've already said, look what adherence to the Church has done to this country.

Stop changing the subject. We're not discussing the morality of IVF, rather the fact the I find it disheartening that someone who seems to have bad a wish to do so was turned off it because of what the Church believes.

totus tuus · 09-07-2012 12:56pm

Gumbi wrote: »

It seems to me like you would have gone down the IVF route if you hadn't known about the Church's teachings. One can conclude than you are therefore blindly following them - how is that healthy?

Then your conclusion would be wrong! I didn't follow the teachings of the church blindly, I did my research and in the end I agreed with them - the decision was all my own. I have friends and relatives who went ahead and got what they desired through IVF, I got what I desired through a different route.

I totally agree with the poster Actor, my sentiments exactly. I'm glad that the child I have was put up for adoption rather than aborted!

Gumbi · 09-07-2012 1:02pm

totus tuus wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

It seems to me like you would have gone down the IVF route if you hadn't known about the Church's teachings. One can conclude than you are therefore blindly following them - how is that healthy?

Then your conclusion would be wrong! I didn't follow the teachings of the church blindly, I did my research and in the end I agreed with them - the decision was all my own. I have friends and relatives who went ahead and got what they desired through IVF, I got what I desired through a different route.

A little bit less concerning; only a little bit, though.

totus tuus · 09-07-2012 1:07pm

Gumbi wrote: »

Unhealthy in that, ultimately, doing so does contribute positively to society. Like I've already said, look what adherence to the Church has done to this country.

Stop changing the subject. We're not discussing the morality of IVF, rather the fact the I find it disheartening that someone who seems to have bad a wish to do so was turned off it because of what the Church believes.

I'm not saddened. I'm more saddened that those who can get pregnant and didn't want their child, aborted rather than put their child up for adoption. IVF doesn't always work!

Gumbi · 09-07-2012 1:10pm

totus tuus wrote: »

Gumbi wrote: »

Unhealthy in that, ultimately, doing so does contribute positively to society. Like I've already said, look what adherence to the Church has done to this country.

Stop changing the subject. We're not discussing the morality of IVF, rather the fact the I find it disheartening that someone who seems to have bad a wish to do so was turned off it because of what the Church believes.

I'm not saddened. I'm more saddened that those who can get pregnant and didn't want their child, aborted rather than put their child up for adoption. IVF doesn't always work!

Again, I was not talking about the morality of IVF.

doctoremma · 09-07-2012 1:16pm

crfcaio wrote: »

So, for this reason, I've never dwelt deep enough in Catholicism - because of what it says is okay and what's not.

Is there any way I can exert the religion while still holding on to my personal opinions about certain subjects? I've always liked how being in a religious group - at least that's my idea of it - you don't feel "alone" anymore - there are people who share the same views and faith as you do.

Any and all help is appreciated.

OP, there are many churches out there with more liberal views than the Catholic Church. You might want to explore your options. Having said that, Wikipedia quotes a survey which finds that over 50% of American Catholics are supportive of same-sex marriage, so you might not need to look far for a like-minded congregation.

Onesimus · 09-07-2012 1:20pm

crfcaio wrote: »

Hi everyone, this is my first time posting here!

So, as some of you might know, Catholicism in South America is HUGE - thank you (I guess) Spaniards and Portuguese colonizers -, and I was "raised" a Catholic - after all, I come from a country where almost 70% of its people are Catholics.

I sometimes feel like there's something missing in my life - I always thought it was religion and faith. The problem? Well, according to what I know, the bible says several things are wrong, include homosexuality. I am not homosexual, but I've met people who are, and there's nothing wrong with them, and I can't understand why God would create something that is against His will. Aren't all men made after His image?

So, for this reason, I've never dwelt deep enough in Catholicism - because of what it says is okay and what's not.

Is there any way I can exert the religion while still holding on to my personal opinions about certain subjects? I've always liked how being in a religious group - at least that's my idea of it - you don't feel "alone" anymore - there are people who share the same views and faith as you do.

Any and all help is appreciated.

No you should not leave the Church just because you find it hard to reason on a particular discipline of the Church.

I would invite you to ''ask an apologist'' at the Catholic answers forum.

Simply copy and paste your question here into the post/question area for the apologist. Questions like yours are usually answered by Fr.Vincent Serpa.

But here is my two cents. The Moral Discipline of the Church is not saying that someone who has homosexual tendencies are inhuman or twisted. It is the acts they commit that are grave. So it is not a sin to be Homosexual per se, but to perform a homosexual act.

Another factor you must take into account, is the amount of Catholics out there ( who actually have no problem making it known they are homosexual ) who accept the Moral discipline of the Church within this area and they live a life of Chastity and accept this Cross.

The church makes it quite clear that we are never to show discrimination towards homosexuals. We must never do that. However me holding a moral belief different to that of a muslim could never bee seen as ''discrimination'' therefore me holding a moral belief different to that of a homosexual person is not discrimination. Nor does it drive a wedge between our relationship. I work with people who are homosexual. We get on just fine regardless of our difference in worldviews.

If I may just kind of re-hash what I said earliar. You shouldnt leave the Church just because you find it hard to accept one area of it's teaching. But you sound like you are willing to learn, so be open to The Holy Spirit and ask him for guidance in learning more upon this subject.

God bless you

Onesimus
the religious extremist :pac:

Stark · 09-07-2012 1:25pm

Actor wrote: »

While you're at it, maybe you could let us know the psychological effects of guilt associated with letting an embryo be flushed down the loo?

No more than the guilt from eating meat I would imagine.

Actor wrote: »

Why the need for so much post-abortion counseling? (oh yes, it's the nasty church's fault)

A myth spread by Youth Defence. Studies have shown that women who have abortions don't suffer long term psychological distress.

doctoremma · 09-07-2012 1:26pm

Onesimus wrote: »

But here is my two cents. The Moral Discipline of the Church is not saying that someone who has homosexual tendencies are inhuman or twisted. It is the acts they commit that are grave. So it is not a sin to be Homosexual per se, but to perform a homosexual act.

For clarity, when you say "homosexual act", do you mean anal intercourse between men (and whatever you consider the female version to be) or any show of sexual affection between homosexuals?

Onesimus · 09-07-2012 1:31pm

doctoremma wrote: »

For clarity, when you say "homosexual act", do you mean anal intercourse between men (and whatever you consider the female version to be) or any show of sexual affection between homosexuals?

Any show of sexual affection between homosexuals albeit physical or internal ones. Same applies for us straight boys. thoughts of lust etc towards the opposite sex is a grave act as well as playing it out. But not every bad thought you get means you commited a sin, it's only when you give assent to the thought itself. You can resist the thought and in this way resist the temptation to sin.

Same applies for homosexuals.

How to be an accepting Catholic

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