The Sub 3 Support Thread

and still ricky villa · 19-12-2016 4:07pm

Another 43 miles in the bag
I like the Hanson's intervals, fast but not vomit inducing
(I know, they'll get harder as distance increases)
Looking back on last year's logs, I started the plan at week 5 and actually handled it quite well.
I'm cautiously optimistic for good results after starting the plan 8 weeks earlier this year

noelearly · 19-12-2016 4:40pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Another 43 miles in the bag
I like the Hanson's intervals, fast but not vomit inducing
(I know, they'll get harder as distance increases)
Looking back on last year's logs, I started the plan at week 5 and actually handled it quite well.
I'm cautiously optimistic for good results after starting the plan 8 weeks earlier this year

Would you happen to have a copy of the Hanson plan downloadable, must start comparing a few plans to see what suits.

and still ricky villa · 19-12-2016 4:42pm

noelearly wrote: »

Would you happen to have a copy of the Hanson plan downloadable, must start comparing a few plans to see what suits.

Afraid not, it's directly from the book. Someone might have an illicit PDF but I couldn't find one so had to pay for the full book

noelearly · 19-12-2016 4:45pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Afraid not, it's directly from the book. Someone might have an illicit PDF but I couldn't find one so had to pay for the full book

I'll need to purchase another so. I have 5 at the moment apart from the P&D advanced one didn't fancy the others. What's the peak mileage on the Hanson plan.

and still ricky villa · 19-12-2016 4:54pm

noelearly wrote: »

I'll need to purchase another so. I have 5 at the moment apart from the P&D advanced one didn't fancy the others. What's the peak mileage on the Hanson plan.

If you follow the plan to the letter, beginner peaks at 57 and advanced at 63
The bit that might draw people in or push them away is the long run. It peaks at 16 miles
But bear in mind you will have run up to 10 miles at marathon pace (with a warm up and cooldown) earlier in the week
The theory behind the plan is to prepare you to run the last 16 miles of a marathon where traditionally your long run is up to 22 miles which prepares you to run the first 22 miles
Regardless though, I've done a crappy version of the Hanson's plan and went through halfway more comfortable than I've ever felt (the 2nd half was blighted by injury)
I figure giving the plan a serious go can't hurt if I can stay healthy and not overload the body too soon which I think is what derailed me last time out

noelearly · 19-12-2016 7:09pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

If you follow the plan to the letter, beginner peaks at 57 and advanced at 63
The bit that might draw people in or push them away is the long run. It peaks at 16 miles
But bear in mind you will have run up to 10 miles at marathon pace (with a warm up and cooldown) earlier in the week
The theory behind the plan is to prepare you to run the last 16 miles of a marathon where traditionally your long run is up to 22 miles which prepares you to run the first 22 miles
Regardless though, I've done a crappy version of the Hanson's plan and went through halfway more comfortable than I've ever felt (the 2nd half was blighted by injury)
I figure giving the plan a serious go can't hurt if I can stay healthy and not overload the body too soon which I think is what derailed me last time out

Sounds good I must have a good look at it, must build up a base before I attempt anything mind.

Itziger · 23-12-2016 9:45am

I'm thinking of going for Cork 2017 for the next sub 3 attempt. If I get into decent base shape by Feb 1st I'll look at a plan. My question is: Could I still target a mid March 10k and go for a fast time? That would mean doing some decent speed training for 6 or 8 weeks before it. Or should I just use the 10k, there may be two of them a week apart, to get in some quality work but focus on the marathon prep all the time?

On a scale, I've always been better at 10k/Half and less effective at marathon. What do you think?

conavitzky · 23-12-2016 10:31am

Itziger wrote: »

I'm thinking of going for Cork 2017 for the next sub 3 attempt. If I get into decent base shape by Feb 1st I'll look at a plan. My question is: Could I still target a mid March 10k and go for a fast time? That would mean doing some decent speed training for 6 or 8 weeks before it. Or should I just use the 10k, there may be two of them a week apart, to get in some quality work but focus on the marathon prep all the time?

On a scale, I've always been better at 10k/Half and less effective at marathon. What do you think?

On a personal level I would keep your training relevant to 10k training right up to 8-9 weeks out but keeping your long run in or around 25-28k per week and including LT-HM pace work in a weekly tempo run (no break).
The last 8 weeks or so start getting more mp specific with less emphasis on 10k pace. From 4-5 weeks out instead of straight up tempo runs include sections at MP and sections at HM pace. You dont have much time to improve your threshold in last few weeks and more time should be dedicated to MP running with 100m and 200m repeats thrown in on easy days to keep leg speed intact. Thats what worked for me anyway!
If you have been more effective at 10k and HM then endurance is probably your limiter at MP. Plenty of miles midweek (building up to 21-25k and incorporating MP sections for the last 8 weeks) I also think if you concentrate on doing your long run faster than is usually advocated around here. 4:14/k is in or around sub 3. I think you need to be doing your LR no slower than 4:35/k in the last 8 weeks. I will probably be savaged for saying that.

and still ricky villa · 06-02-2017 12:07pm

Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Totals
Week # Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Distance
-3 Easy 1.61 4:57 139 Easy 3.22 4:58 140 Easy 3.22 4:56 135 Easy 3.22 4:49 137 Easy 4.83 4:52 136 Easy 6.44 4:37 148 22.54
-2 None None None None Interval 7.64 4:49 144 Easy 6.44 4:51 147 Tempo 6.44 4:03 160 Easy 6.44 4:40 143 Easy 9.66 4:31 147 36.62
-1 Easy 8.05 4:54 NA Interval 8.84 4:34 NA Easy 8.05 4:41 NA Tempo 8.05 4:05 160 Easy 5.65 4:45 156 Easy 11.27 4:33 146 49.91
1 Easy 9.66 4:45 142 Interval 8.84 4:40 144 Easy 9.66 4:27 133 Tempo 9.66 4:05 160 Easy 9.66 4:34 144 Easy 12.87 4:33 150 60.35
2 Easy 9.66 4:44 140 Interval 16.04 4:42 143 Easy 9.66 4:52 128 Tempo 11.27 4:05 156 Easy 9.66 4:31 140 Easy 12.87 4:34 143 69.16
3 Easy 9.66 4:48 140 Interval 14.44 4:41 142 Easy 11.27 4:52 123 Tempo 16.09 4:07 159 Easy 9.66 4:39 134 Long 19.31 4:24 148 80.43
4 Easy 9.66 4:44 141 Interval 13.64 4:38 143 Easy 9.66 4:43 141 Tempo 16.09 4:08 157 Easy 12.87 4:33 143 Easy 16.09 4:49 133 78.01
5 Easy 9.66 4:42 140 Interval 13.44 4:31 141 Easy 11.27 4:10 126 Tempo 16.09 4:07 159 Easy 9.66 4:29 143 Long 22.53 4:23 153 82.65
6 Easy 9.66 4:42 139 Interval 12.84 4:30 137 Easy 9.66 4:53 127 Tempo 17.7 4:12 148 Easy 16.09 4:30 140 Easy 16.09 4:30 140 82.04
7 Easy 9.66 4:49 132 Interval 16.04 4:41 142 Easy 11.27 4:39 134 Tempo 17.71 4:05 158 Easy 12.87 4:28 142 Long 25.75 4:25 153 93.3
8 Easy 9.66 4:42 138 Interval 13.04 4:32 135 Easy 9.66 4:36 136 Tempo 19.31 4:06 155 Easy 16.09 4:35 147 Easy 19.31 4:28 144 87.07
9 Easy 12.87 4:42 141 Interval 13.64 4:49 137 Easy 11.27 4:43 138 Tempo 19.31 4:07 143 Easy 12.87 4:35 132 Long 5.44 4:20 143 75.4

This copied and pasted a lot easier than I thought it would so I ain't messing with it.
Not much being posted here of late so I thought I'd give an update as I hit the official halfway point of the Hanson's plan. A couple of people mentioned they'd be interested to know how the Spring marathoners are getting on so blame them
All has been going unbelievably well but I got knocked out with a cold on Saturday and had to abandon the 18 miler planned for then.
Other than that, I've been aiming to stay healthy. Keeping out of the very worst of the weather and suffering the treadmill when I have to.

Everything reads as Workout Type, Distance, Average Pace and Average HR apart from Thursday's Tempos where it's a 2 mile warm up/cool down and the Average Pace and HR are for the MP portion of the workout
All distances are in km

Any comments, criticisms or advice welcome

averagejoe123 · 06-02-2017 1:42pm

Very solid 12 weeks there Ricky. What is your target time for Rotterdam? I ask because your slow paced runs seem to be a fair bit faster then I anticipate I will be doing mine at when marathon training.

Also do you know your max HR? I have recorded 210 on a few occasions during races which would be higher than most. I would have been doing my easy runs for Dublin 16 between 140-150 BPM which converted to 8.15-8.45 pace p/m.

My sub 3 attempt will hopefully be in Berlin by using P&D 18/70 plan starting in May. Between now and then I hope to bring down my 5k 10k & half times whilst averaging 45-50 miles a week.

I have used treadmills a lot in January too. For me they are fine for easy running but I find they are not a good gauge for faster times. I have a t/m 10k time that I wouldn't get near on the roads.

and still ricky villa · 06-02-2017 1:56pm

I'm targeting 2:55 for Rotterdam
My easy runs actually feel really, really slow and I struggle to maintain them especially now that the plan/pace have 'bedded in'
The Friday and Saturday easy runs are encouraged to be a little quicker following the recommendation in the book so I aim to hit them between Easy and Long pace
The Long runs are where I tend to double check things as the pace chart says 7:17 per mile (translates to 4:31 per km) so I am definitely running those a bit quicker than I probably should
But that said I'm coping well with the mileage and paces (apart from the cold I've got now but that's more to do with the 3 year old disease magnet that lives in my house and coughs directly into my face)

Max HR isn't something I've looked at so I still have the Daniels' ranges implanted in my head and I use them in this plan just to keep an eye on things. You can tell when I've been on the treadmill cos the HR drops way down

Any marathon I've run at HR has been at about 155bpm so I'm happy at where the Tempo runs have landed so far

EC1000 · 06-02-2017 2:30pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

I'm targeting 2:55 for Rotterdam

Great going so far. I'm targeting sub 3 in Rotterdam but only managing a fraction of your mileage. I would be an injured mess if I did all that! Outside of my 3 core weekly runs of speed, tempo and long run I'm mainly cross training with swimming, S&C, etc. Managed 61:5X in Trim yesterday so hoping that I'm on track.

Out of curiosity, which start pen did you get in Rotterdam? I was put in the 3.00-3.10 pen as was told that I would need a sub 3 time to get into the sub 3 pen. A sub 1.23 half would do either so hoping to tick that box between now and then.

averagejoe123 · 06-02-2017 2:33pm

Happy days, there seems to be a number of way to skin the sub 3 cat so whatever works for you. I don't know a huge amount about the Daniel's plans so will do some reading up on them.

Do you have any races scheduled between now and Rotterdam? I am looking at a few 10k's March/April. I'll hopefully get a half in May at some stage but may have to be Limerick on April 30.

and still ricky villa · 06-02-2017 3:12pm

EC1000 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, which start pen did you get in Rotterdam? I was put in the 3.00-3.10 pen

Where did you find your pen? I had added my predicted finish time but fair enough if I don't start in the sub 3 pen. I plan to not panic about where I start (as I've done in the past) and have a little bit of a redundancy built in should I get caught in crowds in the early miles. 2:55 is the plan but 2:59:59 will do me fine!

averagejoe123 wrote: »

Do you have any races scheduled between now and Rotterdam? I am looking at a few 10k's March/April. I'll hopefully get a half in May at some stage but may have to be Limerick on April 30.

I've nothing else booked for the year as I'm seriously taking this as my last go at sub 3. Though I'd like to stick a half in sometime in March. If there's nothing that doesn't suit though, no sweat

EC1000 · 06-02-2017 4:20pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Where did you find your pen? I had added my predicted finish time but fair enough if I don't start in the sub 3 pen.

I put in 2.59 as my predicted time and was then emailed asking for confirmation of having done this time in the last 12 months. When I didn't have it they put me back in the next pen... they said sub 3 or a sub 1.23 half in the last 12 months is required.

MrMacPhisto · 06-02-2017 4:23pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Totals
Week # Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Run Distance Avg Pace Avg HR Distance
-3 Easy 1.61 4:57 139 Easy 3.22 4:58 140 Easy 3.22 4:56 135 Easy 3.22 4:49 137 Easy 4.83 4:52 136 Easy 6.44 4:37 148 22.54
-2 None None None None Interval 7.64 4:49 144 Easy 6.44 4:51 147 Tempo 6.44 4:03 160 Easy 6.44 4:40 143 Easy 9.66 4:31 147 36.62
-1 Easy 8.05 4:54 NA Interval 8.84 4:34 NA Easy 8.05 4:41 NA Tempo 8.05 4:05 160 Easy 5.65 4:45 156 Easy 11.27 4:33 146 49.91
1 Easy 9.66 4:45 142 Interval 8.84 4:40 144 Easy 9.66 4:27 133 Tempo 9.66 4:05 160 Easy 9.66 4:34 144 Easy 12.87 4:33 150 60.35
2 Easy 9.66 4:44 140 Interval 16.04 4:42 143 Easy 9.66 4:52 128 Tempo 11.27 4:05 156 Easy 9.66 4:31 140 Easy 12.87 4:34 143 69.16
3 Easy 9.66 4:48 140 Interval 14.44 4:41 142 Easy 11.27 4:52 123 Tempo 16.09 4:07 159 Easy 9.66 4:39 134 Long 19.31 4:24 148 80.43
4 Easy 9.66 4:44 141 Interval 13.64 4:38 143 Easy 9.66 4:43 141 Tempo 16.09 4:08 157 Easy 12.87 4:33 143 Easy 16.09 4:49 133 78.01
5 Easy 9.66 4:42 140 Interval 13.44 4:31 141 Easy 11.27 4:10 126 Tempo 16.09 4:07 159 Easy 9.66 4:29 143 Long 22.53 4:23 153 82.65
6 Easy 9.66 4:42 139 Interval 12.84 4:30 137 Easy 9.66 4:53 127 Tempo 17.7 4:12 148 Easy 16.09 4:30 140 Easy 16.09 4:30 140 82.04
7 Easy 9.66 4:49 132 Interval 16.04 4:41 142 Easy 11.27 4:39 134 Tempo 17.71 4:05 158 Easy 12.87 4:28 142 Long 25.75 4:25 153 93.3
8 Easy 9.66 4:42 138 Interval 13.04 4:32 135 Easy 9.66 4:36 136 Tempo 19.31 4:06 155 Easy 16.09 4:35 147 Easy 19.31 4:28 144 87.07
9 Easy 12.87 4:42 141 Interval 13.64 4:49 137 Easy 11.27 4:43 138 Tempo 19.31 4:07 143 Easy 12.87 4:35 132 Long 5.44 4:20 143 75.4

This copied and pasted a lot easier than I thought it would so I ain't messing with it.
Not much being posted here of late so I thought I'd give an update as I hit the official halfway point of the Hanson's plan. A couple of people mentioned they'd be interested to know how the Spring marathoners are getting on so blame them
All has been going unbelievably well but I got knocked out with a cold on Saturday and had to abandon the 18 miler planned for then.
Other than that, I've been aiming to stay healthy. Keeping out of the very worst of the weather and suffering the treadmill when I have to.

Everything reads as Workout Type, Distance, Average Pace and Average HR apart from Thursday's Tempos where it's a 2 mile warm up/cool down and the Average Pace and HR are for the MP portion of the workout
All distances are in km

Any comments, criticisms or advice welcome

Hi Ricki,

Very solid stuff. I followed this plan last year and it worked well.

I enjoyed the speed work but by week 10 I was getting tired of them. The "strength" workouts were a welcome change in week 11 and, for me, probably the most enjoyable of the workouts in the entire plan.

I see you switched the rest day from Wednesday to Sunday. My only comment would be to be careful with the EASY day between the SOS workouts. Make sure it is definitely easy pace or tending towards recovery pace for you.

Keep up the good work. By race day you will have plenty of marathon pace mileage and you will hit your target comfortably if you continue your current trajectory injury free:)

and still ricky villa · 06-02-2017 5:02pm

MrMacPhisto wrote: »

I enjoyed the speed work but by week 10 I was getting tired of them. The "strength" workouts were a welcome change in week 11 and, for me, probably the most enjoyable of the workouts in the entire plan.

I see you switched the rest day from Wednesday to Sunday. My only comment would be to be careful with the EASY day between the SOS workouts. Make sure it is definitely easy pace or tending towards recovery pace for you.

Yes, I never thought I'd say I was looking forward to running at about 4min per km pace but the Strength workouts will bring welcome relief. I read a blog post from Luke Humphrey recommending the speed workouts aren't done on the track so I've been flying around the roads near work. Thankfully I haven't vomited once during these! The slow down to Strength pace will be a nice change

Family reasons meant I switched the rest day to Sunday. I make the Wednesday easy run a deliberately slow treadmill affair. So far it's left me fairly fresh for the Thursday tempo but Hanson's fresh, which is half knackered most of the time but still somehow hitting the paces

Ferris B · 06-02-2017 9:48pm

Looks like a nice block of training. I'm also following Hanson and am currently in week 8 en route to London. Target time is not too far off yours. So far so good.

I note you have upped the LR distance by couple of miles compared to what is prescribed. Any reason why?

Ferris B · 06-02-2017 9:55pm

MrMacPhisto wrote: »

Hi Ricki,

I enjoyed the speed work but by week 10 I was getting tired of them. The "strength" workouts were a welcome change in week 11 and, for me, probably the most enjoyable of the workouts in the entire plan.

I'm with you on this also. Can't say I enjoy the speedwork stuff. 3 weeks of it left. Am looking forward to the slower strength work already.

and still ricky villa · 06-02-2017 11:12pm

Ferris B wrote: »

Looks like a nice block of training. I'm also following Hanson and am currently in week 8 en route to London. Target time is not too far off yours. So far so good.

I note you have upped the LR distance by couple of miles compared to what is prescribed. Any reason why?

Honestly? I've always felt 'qualified' to run the full distance after doing at least 18 on a long run. It's a major confidence builder for me personally. I bailed on the 18 miler on Saturday but know for a fact that a non-cold me would have nailed it.
I'm planning on two 20 milers as the last long runs in Weeks 13 and 15 and then hit the start line knowing I couldn't do anymore to prepare

and still ricky villa · 10-03-2017 11:01am

Looking for some opinions here (though I think I know what I'm going to do)

I ran 11 miles at 2:52 pace last night. I need to slow down cos I don't want to overshoot, even if it's only by 3 minutes.

The thing I'm struggling with is fuelling. I have done all of my training to date unsupported. No gels or water stops. I want to adapt as much as possible before looking at any fuelling strategy for the marathon itself.
I have ran the occasional treadmill run with some carbohydrate drink as a treat and have sipped the same a couple of hours before longer runs but have generally used nothing else in training.

I have ran all of my previous marathons with gels, settling on 1 x High5 Isogel every 5km in recent years. And sipping water as it's given out of course.

So, I plan to stick with that strategy but should I start to introduce gels to training runs now that 'the hay is largely in the barn' as the saying goes? I don't want to interrupt any adaptation that may still take place in the next few weeks but don't want to suffer anything gastro on race day

noelearly · 10-03-2017 11:23am

My only advise it try nothing new, I dropped a gel during Chicago marathon and tried a free powerbar caramel gel they handed out during the race. Lost 2 minutes puking my guts up.

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Looking for some opinions here (though I think I know what I'm going to do)

I ran 11 miles at 2:52 pace last night. I need to slow down cos I don't want to overshoot, even if it's only by 3 minutes.

The thing I'm struggling with is fuelling. I have done all of my training to date unsupported. No gels or water stops. I want to adapt as much as possible before looking at any fuelling strategy for the marathon itself.
I have ran the occasional treadmill run with some carbohydrate drink as a treat and have sipped the same a couple of hours before longer runs but have generally used nothing else in training.

I have ran all of my previous marathons with gels, settling on 1 x High5 Isogel every 5km in recent years. And sipping water as it's given out of course.

So, I plan to stick with that strategy but should I start to introduce gels to training runs now that 'the hay is largely in the barn' as the saying goes? I don't want to interrupt any adaptation that may still take place in the next few weeks but don't want to suffer anything gastro on race day

Duanington · 10-03-2017 12:52pm

and still ricky villa wrote: »

Looking for some opinions here (though I think I know what I'm going to do)

I ran 11 miles at 2:52 pace last night. I need to slow down cos I don't want to overshoot, even if it's only by 3 minutes.

The thing I'm struggling with is fuelling. I have done all of my training to date unsupported. No gels or water stops. I want to adapt as much as possible before looking at any fuelling strategy for the marathon itself.
I have ran the occasional treadmill run with some carbohydrate drink as a treat and have sipped the same a couple of hours before longer runs but have generally used nothing else in training.

I have ran all of my previous marathons with gels, settling on 1 x High5 Isogel every 5km in recent years. And sipping water as it's given out of course.

So, I plan to stick with that strategy but should I start to introduce gels to training runs now that 'the hay is largely in the barn' as the saying goes? I don't want to interrupt any adaptation that may still take place in the next few weeks but don't want to suffer anything gastro on race day

I wouldn't worry too much about it to be honest, I used one of my last longish runs as a bit of a test run for Berlin last year. Wore the race gear, carried the gels, tried one ( as above...nothing new on the day etc)....

I don't think you should start introducing gels to your training runs as such - for me, I would go with a simple test of the gels you plan to use on the day...on a one off basis.

BeepBeep67 · 10-03-2017 5:36pm

What I tend to do is on my last run which has some type of extended MP effort in it, usually 2 weeks out, I use as a dry run.
Wear what I plan to wear, bring what I plan to bring with me and this ticks several boxes.

I'll wear my race shorts Brooks Sherpa, which have some small elasticated pockets for gels.
How does it feel running at MP, are the gels easily accessible at MP.
Practice opening and consuming a gel at MP.

and still ricky villa · 10-03-2017 5:42pm

Thanks all,

I'm going to test gels in some of my long easy runs coming up. Seems the safest option and I won't be kicking myself if I have to abandon due to stomach problems. I've been using them for years without issue but you never know what might have changed in the last few months without them

As for dry runs, last night I ran a warm up and then stood stock still for 15 minutes simulating waiting for the off in a crowd. That got a few funny looks especially when I did the 100m shuffle to bunch up at the start line before the gun goes

Itziger · 22-03-2017 2:04pm

Posting this here as I said I would. Shoulda known!

Ya know the way most people and most plans (maybe it's the other way around) build up their MP work in Long Runs or Medium length runs.. Say you start with 6 miles and you try to get it up to 15 or 16. Don't know of many (people or plans) that do more than that. Well I was wondering, what if you took it from a different angle. What if you started with a 25k run at say MP + 30 or 40 seconds and worked down from there towards MP but more or less keeping the distance? Not 100% sure how it would work, but basically along the lines of 25k @ 4.45, then same distance each week at... 4.40, 4.35, 4.30.... down to 4.10. What would be the negatives to that idea?

Midweek session could be a bit of snappier stuff, along the lines of T workouts or mixing M paced stuff with HM pace..........

Ideas?

Krusty_Clown · 22-03-2017 4:18pm

Itziger wrote: »

Posting this here as I said I would. Shoulda known!

Ya know the way most people and most plans (maybe it's the other way around) build up their MP work in Long Runs or Medium length runs.. Say you start with 6 miles and you try to get it up to 15 or 16. Don't know of many (people or plans) that do more than that. Well I was wondering, what if you took it from a different angle. What if you started with a 25k run at say MP + 30 or 40 seconds and worked down from there towards MP but more or less keeping the distance? Not 100% sure how it would work, but basically along the lines of 25k @ 4.45, then same distance each week at... 4.40, 4.35, 4.30.... down to 4.10. What would be the negatives to that idea?

Midweek session could be a bit of snappier stuff, along the lines of T workouts or mixing M paced stuff with HM pace..........

Ideas?

You mean top-down versus bottom-up? There's an element of that already in many programs (for example, long run + finish at marathon pace, progressive runs, etc.) alongside the traditional extending MP sessions. I think Canova would also align somewhat with this approach (where long runs get progressively faster).

My guess would be that it's easier to take a bottom up approach from a physiological perspective. It is assumed that anyone can run at marathon pace for short periods of time before they embark on a marathon plan, so what you're effectively doing is trying to develop the adaptions to allow you to hold on to that pace for 2-3 hours (in the case of this thread, anyway). So in the early parts of the program you're making that speed feel comfortable (threshold, reps etc), and as the plan progresses, adapting the body to hold it for longer and longer. The approach you're advocating though, is to train oneself to run a fixed distance (e.g. 28k), and gradually increase one's pace over the distance (i.e. focus is on speed adaptation only). Which beggars the question - what are you going to do in the race once you hit the 28km mark?

I wouldn't think there's any strong reason not to do what you are proposing, but it needs to be part of a larger coordinated plan that tackles all of the elements (speed, endurance, speed-endurance).

Itziger · 22-03-2017 4:27pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

You mean top-down versus bottom-up? There's an element of that already in many programs (for example, long run + finish at marathon pace, progressive runs, etc.) alongside the traditional extending MP sessions. I think Canova would also align somewhat with this approach (where long runs get progressively faster).

My guess would be that it's easier to take a bottom up approach from a physiological perspective. It is assumed that anyone can run at marathon pace for short periods of time before they embark on a marathon plan, so what you're effectively doing is trying to develop the adaptions to allow you to hold on to that pace for 2-3 hours (in the case of this thread, anyway). So in the early parts of the program you're making that speed feel comfortable (threshold, reps etc), and as the plan progresses, adapting the body to hold it for longer and longer. The approach you're advocating though, is to train oneself to run a fixed distance (e.g. 28k), and gradually increase one's pace over the distance (i.e. focus is on speed adaptation only). Which beggars the question - what are you going to do in the race once you hit the 28km mark? I wouldn't think there's any strong reason not to do what you are proposing, but it needs to be part of a larger coordinated plan that tackles all of the elements (speed, endurance, speed-endurance).

True, but isn't that the same for the runner who's built up from 6 miles @ MP to 16 miles @ MP? What does that runner do for the last 10?? No 'serious' runner does a 26.2 mile training run at MP, right???

I'm purely curious now here. I'd like to hear from anyone who's done it or has read about it. As ever, it means a year of trial and error of course but it might suit some more than the short MP to Long MP plan.

davedanon · 22-03-2017 7:39pm

Itziger wrote: »

No 'serious' runner does a 26.2 mile training run at MP, right???

Serious or not serious, an MP 26.2 isn't a training run. It's a raced marathon. Therefore no-one does it outside of that context, by definition.

Itziger · 22-03-2017 10:58pm

davedanon wrote: »

Serious or not serious, an MP 26.2 isn't a training run. It's a raced marathon. Therefore no-one does it outside of that context, by definition.

Dave, as you probably realised, I was kinda taking the Michael with that one!

The Sub 3 Support Thread

Comments