Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

eastwest · 17-03-2012 1:09pm

Tuam Greenway Project wrote: »

Declan Tierney from The Connaught Tribune has nailed his colours to the mast.
Western Rail Corridor simply isn't coming down the tracks | Connacht Tribune | galwaynews.ie
www.galwaynews.ie

It may take some time though for this message to sink in. People in the west have been fed a diet of rash promises for generations by politicians; it started with draining the Shannon and moved on to nonsense like that spouted by WOT.
The nub of this issue is the triumph of politics over common sense. WOT and the inter county railway committee is made up mostly of county councillors plus the obligatory cleric. Politicians like Ring and Kenny need these bottom-feeders to run their election machines, and they won't risk alienating any of them. Therefore the smart thing to do, if you're a politician, is to do nothing. In that way you let everyone live in hope, while the entire region depopulates because nobody will inject a bit of life into indigenous industries like tourism.
It's depressing, the way that moronic thinking keeps us all mired in the rut we are in. Somebody needs to find an antidote to county councillors and their plodding mentality.

dowlingm · 17-03-2012 8:37pm

The funny thing is I could have expected scepticism before the Westport-Achill project got going but now they have an example to look at and still the dream won't die.

eastwest · 18-03-2012 9:43am

They know it works, but they reckon that the smartest thing to do is to do nothing. Politicians like Ring don't necessarily act in Ireland's best interests, they look at every decision on the basis of "how will this affect my vote at the next election?". In the case of the abandoned railway, their instincts tell them that they will lose the least number of votes by sitting on the fence.

westtip · 18-03-2012 1:39pm

The thing is East West the leader article in the Tribune is very encouraging as the tide is turning in the thinking; if the local rags that do influence thinking here are coming out with this kind of stuff then this is positive. I agree about Ring though - he continues to sit on the fence on this issue, I have written to him several times and he simply doesn't answer any letters or emails, at least Varadkar does that and is taking note of the other view on the WRC. The emergence of the Tuam Greenway group is very encouraging, hopefully all this talk about a Greenway on the route will finally begin to sink into the mindset of people like Ring and maybe even a few of the county councillors; some of them in Sligo, Mayo, Roscommon and Galway are finally beginning to question the WOT stance and say well hold on - there is the chance to actually do something with this line on our watch, and it will give the politicians a chance to actually deliver something they can claim the credit for. East West the tide is turning in our favour - believe me.

dowlingm · 18-03-2012 3:09pm

Don't talk to Ring then. Look for the fella most likely to give him a run at the next election - get that guy talking about it and Ring will put 50km of it in just to snatch the issue away.

Markcheese · 18-03-2012 4:18pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

dowlingm wrote: »

I think the problem with Varadkar is that a lot of people have made up their mind on him, that he basically is a b@stard offspring of Margaret Thatcher and Michael MacDowell. Hopefully he will surprise us with something really innovative.

Couldn't have put it better about the smug git but I would probably have been banned. I await proof that he is actually some use but I won't hold my breath.

Yeah what does he think he's doing trying to make a difference when the traditional norm works so well... Shouldn't he be an old school politician that sits on fence and tells everyone a little of what they want to hear....

Christ what a nation of begrudgers and backbiters ...a friend of mine always says if YOU think it's so easy YOU do it... Infuriating answer but he's right

dowlingm · 18-03-2012 4:39pm

Markcheese if he wants to present an image of politics not as usual he should put manners on his junior who is blowing a couple of thousand of euro a weekday on a poorly planned and implemented rail service from his home patch.

Ted Mosby · 18-03-2012 8:03pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Markcheese if he wants to present an image of politics not as usual he should put manners on his junior who is blowing a couple of thousand of euro a weekday on a poorly planned and implemented rail service from his home patch.

Jeez boys ye'll want to have a spare pair of pants handy then whenever Ennis-Athenry is scrapped, ye'll be so excited.

corktina · 18-03-2012 9:42pm

who said anyone on here wants it scrapped?

I think most of us would like to see the people who wast4ed €106 millon (plus the subsidies) on it be brought to account. ALso we'd mostly like to see it improved so that it makes sense, but I've yet to hear anyone suggest it be closed, but thanks for your contribution

eastwest · 18-03-2012 10:55pm

corktina wrote: »

who said anyone on here wants it scrapped?

I think most of us would like to see the people who wast4ed €106 millon (plus the subsidies) on it be brought to account. ALso we'd mostly like to see it improved so that it makes sense, but I've yet to hear anyone suggest it be closed, but thanks for your contribution

I think that sums up the views of most people here. We'd like to see them make a success of it, but more importantly we'd like to feel certain that the mistakes of Limerick-Athenry are not repeated again on an even less likely prospect. There may come a time when a railway on Claremorris-Collooney makes sense, but in the meantime we need to sweat the asset to create jobs and keep people living in Mayo and Sligo. If a railway ever makes economic sense, the greenway will have preserved the route; the alternative is wholesale land-grabbing. In the intervening couple of decades we will have ample opportunity to sort out any issues around sharing the corridor with both services.
This is all so blatantly obvious, it's hard to understand why the politicians can't get their heads around it.

galwaycyclist · 19-03-2012 10:13am

eastwest wrote: »

This is all so blatantly obvious, it's hard to understand why the politicians can't get their heads around it.

I suspect a lot of it is a form of self sustaining snobbery. There is an element in Irish society that seems to feel threatened by the idea that walking or cycling has any value. This is accompniedby an almost compulsive need to portray people who walk or cycle as members of some form of social out group - as people who don't pay taxes or probably don't have jobs. To invest in greenways you have to acknowledge that in fact people who like to walk or cycle may have "status", may have jobs, may have money to spend. I suspect that at some visceral level those who administer infrastructure would have to find that threatening since the general thrust of infrastructure provision and planning in this country is based on denigrating these modes of travel in favour of car use (or dare I say it rail - look at how the luas sterilised certain streets for cycling.)

westtip · 19-03-2012 12:19pm

eastwest wrote: »

This is all so blatantly obvious, it's hard to understand why the politicians can't get their heads around it.

Particuarly Michael Ring when he said things like this last year:

Michael Ring TD and Minister of State for Tourism and Transport commenting about the impact The Great Western greenway was having on Mayo Tourism, in the Mayo News 4th May 2011

“The Great Western Greenway is a perfect example of the type of innovative project which this country needs for a sustained economic recovery. This project, which has crucially involved the local community in its development, is now generating extra visitors, revenues and jobs for Mayo.”

Mr Ring seems to be playing with one foot in one camp and one in the other - afraid of the old guard in the councils in particlar who have built careers on promising the WRC would happen. He needs to get off the pot on this one or Varadkar needs to wake him up and tell him the Greenway is now about the only show in town as a practical solution (especially for Collooney to Kiltimagh - lets leave Claremorris out of it.)

There is a huge need to wake up to the economics of "Baby boomer tourism" - the fastest growing sector of tourism and in particular in baby boomer cyclists;

check this out: http://goodlifemississauga.com/107-gl-2011/cycleboom.html

eastwest · 19-03-2012 10:32pm

Obviously Ring was just reading out a speech written by an assistant, otherwise he's being very disingenuous indeed.
Still, I suppose it wouldn't be the first time a politician said one thing and did something completely different.
There's no doubt though that Ring isn't suitable ministerial material. He's behaving like a county councillor, taking a view of a situation from the perspective of the parish pump and not from a national standpoint. A big finger nees to be pointed at him on this issue, to shame him into looking beyond Westport when spending his supposedly national budget.
I really thought we had got rid of this kind of attitude at the last election, but it seems we just swopped one kind of gombeen mentality for another.

westtip · 20-03-2012 11:09am

Ted Mosby wrote: »

Jeez boys ye'll want to have a spare pair of pants handy then whenever Ennis-Athenry is scrapped, ye'll be so excited.

Tut tut, but will get excited when they say they are going to put in a parallel greenway alongside the rail line and read these kind of ideas in this paper:Attachment not found.

MayoForSam · 12-04-2012 12:29pm

Well, after emailing Minister Varadkar a month ago, I received a reply from his private secretary today regarding the Greenway from Tuam northwards:

12th April 2012

On behalf of the Minister I wish to acknowledge receipt of your email regarding Greenway for the West.

The Minister is aware of the proposals put forward for a Greenway and would like to thank you for your input, however, in the first instance this is a matter for the Local Authority.

Yours sincerely

xxxxxxx

___________________

Private Secretary to Minister Varadkar.

So it seems that pass the buck is alive and well in this country :rolleyes:.

eastwest · 12-04-2012 12:56pm

MayoForSam wrote: »

Well, after emailing Minister Varadkar a month ago, I received a reply from his private secretary today regarding the Greenway from Tuam northwards:

So it seems that pass the buck is alive and well in this country :rolleyes:.

The problem with the attitude of politicians like Varadker is that this kind of infrastructure can never be delivered by county councils; by its nature it is national infrastructure that crosses county boundaries, and needs leadership from the centre to make it happen. Varadker doesn't care about tourism business in the west of Ireland though, why should he? His only concerns are the voters in Dublin West, he couldn't give a sh1te about anything west of the Shannon.

westtip · 12-04-2012 2:11pm

MayoForSam wrote: »

Well, after emailing Minister Varadkar a month ago, I received a reply from his private secretary today regarding the Greenway from Tuam northwards:

So it seems that pass the buck is alive and well in this country :rolleyes:.

Varadkar is turning out to be a waste of space, he emailed the same to sligomayogreenway campaign. It seems we have to gnaw away at the councillors so they can finally be dragged away from the moribund mindset that seems to think a railway is going to happen between claremorris and Collooney - it appears West on Track have the councils sown up with councillors on the Western Inter county railway board protecting their right to claim expenses for totally useless meetings, instead of seeing what an opportunityt he SM Greenway represents for the West. One day someone in the Department of Transport TOURISM and sport will realise the opportunity - SADLY I don't think it's going to be leadership from the top though.

dowlingm · 12-04-2012 3:08pm

Can someone remind me who owned the land the Achill-Westport greenway was done on - was that a Mayo Co Co project or did CIE own some of the land?

Varadkar was a bit abrupt there - the LA have no control over what CIE do with the alignment - you just have to ask Limerick Co Co who were taken to the High Court by IE who told a judge "a heritage designation is inappropriate yer honour, 'tis a working railway!"

end of the road · 12-04-2012 4:59pm

dowlingm wrote: »

the LA have no control over what CIE do with the alignment - you just have to ask Limerick Co Co who were taken to the High Court by IE who told a judge "a heritage designation is inappropriate yer honour, 'tis a working railway!"

maybe the lines ghost appears with ghostly locos and carridges running up and down it with ghostly people on the ghost of the track? (sorry not funny) IE just didn't want limerick co co to have it. we don't want it but you can't have it, thats how IE works.

eastwest · 12-04-2012 7:30pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Can someone remind me who owned the land the Achill-Westport greenway was done on - was that a Mayo Co Co project or did CIE own some of the land?

Varadkar was a bit abrupt there - the LA have no control over what CIE do with the alignment - you just have to ask Limerick Co Co who were taken to the High Court by IE who told a judge "a heritage designation is inappropriate yer honour, 'tis a working railway!"

In the case of the Westport greenway, the land had long since reverted to farmers along the route, and they agreed to give it back in many cases; for the rest of the way it diverted on to small roads or over commonage etc. I understand that while no money was paid to the farmers who did allow access, there was a fair bit of making walls, farm access roads, etc.
It should be noted that the Westport-Achill route is far from being a continuous route; large sections are on road or diverted away from the original rail track. Claremorris/Collooney could be a much better route if it was done soon before it is lost to squatters. The route is technically in the ownership of CIE, but already some sections have been squatted on and will likely be lost to adverse possession in the near future, if that hasn't already happened. CIE seems uninterested in defending the route in the courts, which is a good indication of how they see the future of rail travel in this area.
While many of the councillors on the inter county railway committee do actually believe the West on Track gospel of the imminent arrival of trains, there may well be a few who are interested in allowing the line to slip into private ownership in some places. There is a devious strand within local politics that is capable of such trickery.
The only way that this cycle way can be built is for the relevant minister (Michael Ring) to approach CIE and free up the corridor for the construction of a path by the various local authorities, but he won't cross swords with the local Taliban warlord, so nothing will happen except the continuing erosion of the route by land-grabbers.

westtip · 13-04-2012 10:23am

We have to think of a way to tackle Varadkar - From the top down by taking the idea to Enda a bit more. and from the bottom up to pressurise him locally. West on Track have always taken the "moral high ground" on this railway and behaved as if they are the only spokespersons worth talking to or taking comment from re this track - as we all know there is a growing body of opinion - in the west - that does not agree with WOT on pragmatic grounds (ie it ain't going to happen), on economic grounds - the greenway will contribute to the local economy, and preference grounds - a lot of people would actually prefer to see the greenway as a new leisure facility on their own doorsteps. Varadkar is being rather obtuse on this whole matter and making it hard work for us to "prove" there is local support - I am dam sure at this stage - the mass support and emotional attachment to the whole idea of a railway north of Claremorris at least has long since dissipated and now we have to prove it to Varadkar.

westtip · 01-06-2012 10:58am

letter in todays Irish times folks

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224317058460

Sir, – Your Editorial (Bicycle boom, May 23rd) said The Great Western Greenway has meant “more than €1 million to the local economy since it was opened two years ago”. Greenways are the expected norm in other European countries, we have finally woken up to the tourism spending they create but we are playing catch-up. A 2006 Fáilte Ireland report showed the infrastructure deficit in this area. A national greenway network is needed and could be achieved for relatively little cost. Ireland is losing out to countries catering for long-distance cycling and walking tourists; tired, hungry tourists – who spend money.

The abandoned railway line from Claremorris in Co Mayo to Collooney just outside Sligo town at 70km long would make a perfect greenway. In the unlikely event of the line ever being selected for re-opening as a railway in the distant future – a greenway on the route now would protect the alignment from further encroachment and land grabs that have already taken place on the line. It would put this publicly- owned route, currently wasted, to great use today, for visitors and locals alike. If connected to the Great Western Greenway via Kiltimagh and Castlebar it would create a continuous 150km greenway from Sligo (Collooney) to Achill. Such a project would transform walking and cycling tourism in the west, with many small towns that never see a tourist benefiting.

The success of the Great Western Greenway is proof it works, the fact we are losing long distance cycling tourists to other countries is proof of the lost opportunity.

This project is “shovel ready” there are no land ownership issues – it would not cost a great deal and would pay for itself within five years through increased spend in the areas it goes through. SligoMayo greenway campaign has asked for meetings with Minister Michael Ring to discuss the potential of this project but have been continually ignored. Perhaps we just don’t want to encourage tired hungry tourists? Perhaps Enda Kenny, who is a keen cyclist might ring Michael’s bike bell to wake him up to this huge opportunity? – Yours, etc,

BRENDAN QUINN,

Sligomayo greenway campaign,

Add as a note crossing this letter is a letter from Michael Ring to the SMG campaign asking for further information about it and finally engaging with the idea...so who knows finally the message might be getting through.

eastwest · 01-06-2012 12:14pm

Says it all. There really is no conflict between the aspirations of greenway campaigners and the Taliban who want the old days of steam to come back. A greenway would protect the alignment, something that CIE is patently unwilling to do.
You would have to wonder why WOT (and more importantly, the inter-county railway committee) does nothing about encroachments on the line. I haven't seen one newspaper piece from them condemning these land-grabs, but they jump in immediately to condemn greenway campaigners who seek to keep the route in public ownership. Is it that they are just anti-tourist? Are the Taliban afraid that foreign women on bicycles might divert the minds of good catholic boys from the true path?
Relax, Taliban; this is about riding bicycles, not 'the other thing'!

westtip wrote: »

letter in todays Irish times folks

http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224317058460

Sir, – Your Editorial (Bicycle boom, May 23rd) said The Great Western Greenway has meant “more than €1 million to the local economy since it was opened two years ago”. Greenways are the expected norm in other European countries, we have finally woken up to the tourism spending they create but we are playing catch-up. A 2006 Fáilte Ireland report showed the infrastructure deficit in this area. A national greenway network is needed and could be achieved for relatively little cost. Ireland is losing out to countries catering for long-distance cycling and walking tourists; tired, hungry tourists – who spend money.

The abandoned railway line from Claremorris in Co Mayo to Collooney just outside Sligo town at 70km long would make a perfect greenway. In the unlikely event of the line ever being selected for re-opening as a railway in the distant future – a greenway on the route now would protect the alignment from further encroachment and land grabs that have already taken place on the line. It would put this publicly- owned route, currently wasted, to great use today, for visitors and locals alike. If connected to the Great Western Greenway via Kiltimagh and Castlebar it would create a continuous 150km greenway from Sligo (Collooney) to Achill. Such a project would transform walking and cycling tourism in the west, with many small towns that never see a tourist benefiting.

The success of the Great Western Greenway is proof it works, the fact we are losing long distance cycling tourists to other countries is proof of the lost opportunity.

This project is “shovel ready” there are no land ownership issues – it would not cost a great deal and would pay for itself within five years through increased spend in the areas it goes through. SligoMayo greenway campaign has asked for meetings with Minister Michael Ring to discuss the potential of this project but have been continually ignored. Perhaps we just don’t want to encourage tired hungry tourists? Perhaps Enda Kenny, who is a keen cyclist might ring Michael’s bike bell to wake him up to this huge opportunity? – Yours, etc,

BRENDAN QUINN,

Sligomayo greenway campaign,

Add as a note crossing this letter is a letter from Michael Ring to the SMG campaign asking for further information about it and finally engaging with the idea...so who knows finally the message might be getting through.

Markcheese · 02-06-2012 7:43am

Does adverse possession "kill" a right of way, or were railways not ever rights of way ..... Basically does it matter who has possession as long as unhindered passage is allowed.....

CIE · 02-06-2012 8:38am

A national greenway network is needed

Wow, that's an ego talking; a taxpayer-funded nothingway that cannot transport goods or people at relatively high speeds (possibly the highest on land, too, in a safe manner) is "needed". OK fine; build it on the footprint of the planned M17.

And what's with the obsessed people who keep resurrecting this thread? I've seen other threads closed for the offence of bringing them back to the first page after months of silence. Get off the obsession already.

foggy_lad · 02-06-2012 10:32am

CIE wrote: »

Wow, that's an ego talking; a taxpayer-funded nothingway that cannot transport goods or people at relatively high speeds (possibly the highest on land, too, in a safe manner) is "needed". OK fine; build it on the footprint of the planned M17.

And what's with the obsessed people who keep resurrecting this thread? I've seen other threads closed for the offence of bringing them back to the first page after months of silence. Get off the obsession already.

C.I.E. Cycling Is Easier could be the slogan for the new network of greenways which hopefully will bring some much needed tourism back to Ireland. Greenways have more potential to provide more to the economy of the west than the reopened rail link between Galway and Limerick!

westtip · 02-06-2012 11:26am

CIE wrote: »

And what's with the obsessed people who keep resurrecting this thread? I've seen other threads closed for the offence of bringing them back to the first page after months of silence. Get off the obsession already.

Not debating things that arise in the media that are associated with the subject is a way of burying the head in the sand I suppose. I guess the thread could be changed in title to What shall we do with the redundant abandonned Western Rail Corridor now we know there will be no further extension of the railway

There may have been months of silence on this subject on boards.ie but the subject and the debate has not gone away and there will be more in the media to come. very soon.

CIE wrote: »

Wow, that's an ego talking; a taxpayer-funded nothingway that cannot transport goods or people at relatively high speeds (possibly the highest on land, too, in a safe manner) is "needed". OK fine; build it on the footprint of the planned M17.
.

reference the comment about a national greenway network is needed - its not "ego" talking its just plain economic sense. Do some research into the hard facts of what activity tourism brings into local rural economies. The Great Western Greenway is just one example - - look at long distance walking and cycling routes around the world - be they on old railway alignments canal banks or just ancient rights of way - they attract tourists who do get "tired and hungry" and spend money.

Re your facile argument about using the M17 footprint - unfortunately this would require spending money on land - why bother doing this when we (ie you me and the rest of the nation) already own a route that was the old railway, and this route happens to bring tired hungry cyclists right into the ailing town centres of rural towns that have not seen tourists arrive since since......well a long time.

The world has changed and harking on about resurecting old railway routes through rural west of Ireland, is the stuff of dreams. The West of Ireland economy relies very heavily on tourism - the greenway network - in part using the WRC which I have long argued for - will reinvent tourism in the west of ireland, and I am now increasingly confident its what's going to happen to the WRC. Some of us will have played a part in making it happen, through constant argument on this thread and in the pages of the media and in other forums.

This is why this thread from time to time gets resurected - because its still a relevant debate. Those that don't want to see it debated are the ones living in cloud cuckoo land about a railway being re-opened on this line anytime soon. I can assure you; on good authority the next phase of the WRC isn't even going to be considered as a potential project until the next decade (which could mean 2029) by which time there will be no route left with the amount of encroachment there has been on it - As greenway advocates have long argued, providing a Greenway now will actually give a better chance of the railway ever being re-opened - Why? because it will secure the alignment with no further encroachment for ever, and then if, and only if, a railway is considered again - maybe ten 15 or 20 years down the line - the facility to have a parallel greenway in place will be there. But please wake up and smell the coffee, the greenway is just about the only option that now exists for the WRC (both north and south of Claremorris BTW).

corktina · 02-06-2012 1:20pm

its not a Greenway thats needed as such, its jobs....thats the promise that Tourism brings with it and the myth that this line can carry passengers and freight at relatively high speed will never do that.

Having your head in the sand and wanting to revive a railway that never provided a service worth having (especially after the Motor Car was invented and superceded any need for it) and always made a loss, smacks of wanting trains for their own sake rather than any practical purpose.

dowlingm · 02-06-2012 2:31pm

I don't doubt there are tourists to be got, but am wary of how many and how accurate estimates of existing usage are. Let us for once underpromise and overdeliver.

Certainly a concentration of greenways (Athenry-Claremorris-Coolloney and shared alignments Claremorris-Westport/Ballina) might bring a scale which allows flights into NOC to offer a choice of destinations for travellers, as opposed to a greenway here and the next one being 100km away.

Hotblack Desiato · 03-06-2012 12:52am

CIE wrote: »

a taxpayer-funded nothingway that cannot transport goods or people at relatively high speeds

The Western Rail Nothingway, if you please.

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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