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Voting Rights For Irish Born Living Abroad
Comments
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Cavehill Red wrote: »No representation without taxation!
nnnnmmmmggghhhhhh!!:mad::mad::mad:
It is NOT "No representation without taxation".
It is actually No Taxation without representation. They mean very different things. I have said this about 10 times on this board yet I see people post the wrong version time and time again!! FFS, get it right first of all.
Right, anyway as I pay tax in Ireland does that mean I should get a vote. Is taxation equating ones right to vote? What about people who live off the government, should they be given a right to vote, should we means test someones right to vote? Should we be really looking back instead of forward? Should we go back to the Victorian era where only men of property had a vote, or the Roman era where men who owned land were allowed a vote?0 -
Cavehill Red wrote: »Please identify for me someone in Ireland who pays zero tax. There aren't any.
This is Ireland. We are, despite rumours to the contrary, a sovereign nation. What other countries do is not of concern.
The USA demands tax returns from all its overseas citizens in return for the right to suffrage. I see no reason why Irish ex-pats should enjoy influence over somewhere they do not live without, as residents do, paying taxes towards the state.
Again, this has been ill quoted and bent out of context to death. Only Americans who earn more than $92,000 must submit a tax return. The USA is the ONLY country in the world requireing their citizens to do this. This has more to do with rich americans lving in places like Mexico and Bermuda with huge incomes and Oil workers in the Gulf. It has nothing to do with a civic trade off.
All other OECD countries offer votes to its citizens abroad, apart from Ireland. Are they all wrong?
Please try again!0 -
Dear Jank,
You are twice the fool.
Firstly, I deliberately inverted the statement to counter demands from expats to have representation without taxation. That appears to have been obvious to all but you.
Secondly, you're wrong about the income threshold for US citizens abroad. All must make returns, even if zero returns. I know because I have US citizens in my immediate family who have to do so every year in order to vote for Obama.
Thanks for playing.0 -
Really? My friend must be lying to me then so when he voted for Obama from Australia and hasnt submitted a tax return in about 6 years even though he probably should have. My point seems lost on your that the aim of this tax return is tax not a "buy your vote" scheme that you think its about.
Posting up false statements then "claiming" it was a joke and that it was intentional is a nice ploy alright
I see you are on the WUM trail and have no interest to discuss this topic so I will leave you go on your way.0 -
Really? My friend must be lying to me then so when he voted for Obama from Australia and hasnt submitted a tax return in about 6 years even though he probably should have. My point seems lost on your that the aim of this tax return is tax not a "buy your vote" scheme that you think its about.
Posting up false statements then "claiming" it was a joke and that it was intentional is a nice ploy alright
I see you are on the WUM trail and have no interest to discuss this topic so I will leave you go on your way.
I won't rise to trolling. I posted no false statement. I inverted a well-known cliche to make my point - if you don't pay taxes to this country you don't deserve to vote to influence its future. You're the only person apparently incapable of understanding this.
And yes, your friend must be lying.
I have no idea what a WUM trail is, and can only assume it's as fantastical as your imaginary friend and your paranoiac incapacity to understand rhetorical inversion.
Thanks for playing.0 -
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Cavehill Read and jank, cool it. Not only are the two of you disturbing the peace, but both of you are wrong. If you want a mindbending experience, visit www.irs.gov. In the meantime, cut it out; you're destroying the thread.
SSR0 -
Cavehill Red wrote: »if you don't pay taxes to this country you don't deserve to vote to influence its future
So what if you're a net drain on the country's resources? What if you're on the dole and the only tax you pay is consumer-related (fuel, alcohol, VAT, etc)? Should you be denied the vote then? Because I live abroad yet I pay those taxes any time I come home.
Also, for the person saying you should only vote if you live with the consequences of your vote. I live with the consequences of successive FF governments every day I'm not back in Ireland. Especially this week when I can't get back for my grandfather's impending funeral.
What is the harm in having one or two TDs for ex-pats, thereby diluting the power of their vote? Or allowing them to vote for the president, which has nothing to do with the day-to-day running of the country and everything to do with the image of Ireland in a global context?
I agree that those not born in or naturalized to Ireland should not get a vote, we don't want important decisions made by millions of third-generation Americans, but you can't exclude the entire diaspora. There has to be a way to allow them to have some say in how their homeland is run.0 -
Cavehill Red wrote: »I won't rise to trolling. I posted no false statement. I inverted a well-known cliche to make my point - if you don't pay taxes to this country you don't deserve to vote to influence its future. You're the only person apparently incapable of understanding this.
And yes, your friend must be lying.
I have no idea what a WUM trail is, and can only assume it's as fantastical as your imaginary friend and your paranoiac incapacity to understand rhetorical inversion.
Thanks for playing.
How about discussing the topic without resorting to abuse?
Regarding the part in bold, I pay taxes in Ireland, there fore you agree that I should have a vote, right?
Also by "inverting" that cliche you destroy the argument of what that cliché actually is. The premise in on democracy first not taxation you on the other hand equate taxation first then democracy which opens a whole can of worms which I raised which you have yet to address at all.0 -
Robinson set a - to my mind somewhat unconstitutional - position for the presidency vis-a-vis ex-pats. In that context, and its continuation and extension towards the citizens of occupied Ireland by her successor, and the fact that the presidency is largely ceremonial, I could potentially be persuaded that ex-patriates might be permitted a vote on the presidency.
However, it is notable that worldwide the number of potential Irish passport holders is a number of factors greater than the population of the Republic. To have policy in Ireland set by those who do not live here is not democratic at all, which is why I oppose voting in Oireachtas elections for those who do not live here. So fundamentally, I disagree with you. As an Irish citizen AND Irish resident, I do not want people abroad having any say in how the country is run if they are not at least prepared to contribute in terms of taxation.
I appreciate your appeal to emotion in relation to your grandfather. That can't be pleasant. Nevertheless, you were not exiled. You chose to leave, for presumably your own good reasons. In matters as diverse as attending your relative's funeral, or voting, you presumably were aware of the potential ramifications before you chose to depart these shores.0 -
So what if you're a net drain on the country's resources? What if you're on the dole and the only tax you pay is consumer-related (fuel, alcohol, VAT, etc)? Should you be denied the vote then? Because I live abroad yet I pay those taxes any time I come home.
Also, for the person saying you should only vote if you live with the consequences of your vote. I live with the consequences of successive FF governments every day I'm not back in Ireland. Especially this week when I can't get back for my grandfather's impending funeral.
What is the harm in having one or two TDs for ex-pats, thereby diluting the power of their vote? Or allowing them to vote for the president, which has nothing to do with the day-to-day running of the country and everything to do with the image of Ireland in a global context?
I agree that those not born in or naturalized to Ireland should not get a vote, we don't want important decisions made by millions of third-generation Americans, but you can't exclude the entire diaspora. There has to be a way to allow them to have some say in how their homeland is run.
Thats the usual red herring that pops out ad finem when this topic is raised. "Sure why should I let some douche bag yank have a vote when he is 1/26th Irish and hasnt a clue about the place..."
Seriously, nobody is saying that we should let the entire 60+ million Irish Diaspora have a vote so lets get that one out of the way first!0 -
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How about discussing the topic without resorting to abuse?
Pot, kettle, etc.Regarding the part in bold, I pay taxes in Ireland, there fore you agree that I should have a vote, right?
Should anyone who crosses the border from Newry to buy petrol or smokes be entitled to a vote? What about those visiting from Holyhead on the ferry for a day? Or someone transiting through Shannon? Clearly this is a mockery of the concept of holding a meaningful stake in the society in which you claim suffrage. Such a meaningful stake could only be attained by either being a permanent part of this society as a resident, or emulating that status by filing a full tax return.Also by "inverting" that cliche you destroy the argument of what that cliché actually is.
Slowly, light dawns. That's exactly what I was doing. The tea party (original version) resented being taxed without being represented. I resent the concept of ex-pats being represented without being taxed. This really needn't to have been spelled out, and didn't have to be for anyone else.The premise in on democracy first not taxation you on the other hand equate taxation first then democracy which opens a whole can of worms which I raised which you have yet to address at all.
This sentence(s?) descends into gibberish rather quickly. Can you rephrase it, or punctuate it, so that what you mean to say is clear?0 -
Thats the usual red herring that pops out ad finem when this topic is raised. "Sure why should I let some douche bag yank have a vote when he is 1/26th Irish and hasnt a clue about the place..."
Seriously, nobody is saying that we should let the entire 60+ million Irish Diaspora have a vote so lets get that one out of the way first!
Unlike Britain, which distinguishes a number of levels or statuses of citizenship/subjectship, Ireland has only one. Therefore anyone entitled to a passport is as Irish as anyone else, place of birth, ethnicity, etc all being irrelevant if the criteria cited on the DFA website is achieved.
Now, I've asked the DFA more than once for two pieces of data, neither of which they were able to provide. One is the number of current passport holders. The other is the number of potential passport holders, ie how many people could theoretically be entitled to receive an Irish passport.
Since the DFA are incapable of answering this question, we should already be backing away rapidly from any concept of extending suffrage. However, for the interest of debate, let's play maths.
Last year, 4,581,269 people lived in the Republic of Ireland. Not all of these were Irish of course, but we don't have the national breakdowns yet so we'll have to see what we can learn from 2006.
In 2006, there were 3,706,683 Irish citizens in the Republic and 419,733 non-Irish, of whom a quarter were British and hence entitled to vote in all but presidential elections, and another 163,000 from the EU, entitled to vote in many of our elections. So in 2005, some 89% of people in Ireland were Irish, while another 6.6% of residents were entitled to vote here. Working on a similar proportion, that would mean that there are currently c. 4.03 million Irish in the Republic, plus another c. 302,000 who can vote here.
Now, not all of these are of legal age to vote. But since the CSO break down age annoyingly into a 15-19 yo age grouping, it isn't actually possible to get a voting cohort for even 2006 without asking them to custom produce the stats, which I'm not able to do at this time of night. Let's work on the assumption that, in your shiny world of ex-pat voting, all people will one day be of an age to vote. Hence we're talking potential voters for now.
So 4 million Irish and 300K non-Irish resident voters in the Republic.
Under the GFA, all NI citizens are entitled to passports unequivocally. According to NISRA, in June 2010, there were just under 1.8 million people resident in NI. 91% of these are NI born, and hence qualify under the GFA for Irish passports. I know many are Unionists; nevertheless, I've explained I'm looking at potential voters here. So that's another 1.63 million potential voters there, and let's not forget that a decent proportion of the other 9% living in NI are, guess what? Irish citizens from the Republic, around another 40-50,000. Again, as with the Republic, we are awaiting fresh census figures to be released shortly. I'm happy to reprise this with the actual figures when available.
So, in Ireland alone, 5.67 m potential Irish passport holders.
According to the Guardian, there are another 400,000 (Ro)Irish born residents in Britain. Unfortunately this does not include the no of NI born people living in Britain, all of whom are entitled to passports under the GFA. Working on relative ratios of population (even though NI born people are more likely than RoI born people to move to Britain), we can add another 160,000 NI born. So that's a further 560,000 potential passport holders in Britain. Bear in mind, I am including under 18s, but not including partners, etc, who would all become potential Irish passport holders.
You begin to see why the DFA has no idea, don't you? And we haven't even got as far as Europe yet. There are almost no stats available on this. Wiki offers a ballpark figure of 500,000 in continental Europe but offers little supporting data for that. Let's say it's half that - 250,000. Now we're up to 6.48 million potential passport holders.
Let's look further afield. 35% of Australians have Irish ancestry, but many of these don't qualify for passports currently. According to the ABC in 2006, some 60,000 residents then were Irish born. We could probably bump that up a bit now, given recent times. Let's say 75,000 conservatively. There were 21,000 NI born residents then too. We could put that up to at least 25,000 now. In 2006, between 12,000 and 15,000 New Zealand residents were Irish born. Again, with both antipodean states, we cannot filter out the NI people who currently associate or self-describe as British from the British or UK stats. So the antipodean figures are actually UNDERestimates of total potential Irish passport holders.
Before we've even got to North America, we're looking at some 6.6 million potential Irish passport holders.
In 2006, some 4.3 MILLION Canadians put their ethnicity down in the Canadian census as Irish. Bear in mind, Canadian was an option on the form! We cannot know how many of these are entitled to passports under the current system. If only 10%, we'd be looking at 430,000 more passport holders (plus spouses, offspring, etc.) There are also around 30,000 Irish born residents then, likely more now. Again, we can't filter the NI born out of the UK figures. Scaling both estimates up to today, I'd guess at a figure of total island born residents of Canada at c. 50,000.
According to the US Census bureau last year, some 36.9 MILLION Americans consider themselves Irish. Now, that's 8 times the population of the Republic, but we know most of those could not claim passports. However, an unknowable proportion could. And 122,000 US residents were IRISH BORN (again, we have no way of filtering NI born out of the generic UK figure, so again this is an underestimate). Let's work again pro-rata with Ireland's own population. That gives us another 49,000 or so.
Minimum 6,821,000 so far, haven't even looked at Africa, South America, Asia...
PLUS spouses. PLUS offspring. NEVER MIND those of one generation descent already. Or those of Two. You couldn't guess at the number. The DFA can't.
So for a nation of 4.5 million residents of whom only 4 million are Irish, we could ballpark be looking, very conservatively, at an exposure to nearly DOUBLE that number of passport holders worldwide, if not moreso.
TL;DR - There is likely as many people outside of Ireland entitled to Irish passports already as there are in the country. Most likely quite significantly more.0 -
Actually, there already exists a distinction between those citizens born in Ireland and those born abroad with regard to the citizenship by descent rules, so essentially there are different levels of citizenship. Granted, this is more an administrative distinction than anything else but it is there nonetheless.
Clearly, there would need to be some scaling of the power of a vote so that those abroad did not overwhelm residents, but this already occurs in Oireachtas elections via constituency boundaries. Extending to referenda and the presidential election would be tricky of course.
To be honest, I'd be happy with presidential elections alone as I think that that is the kind of election that the diaspora should be included in.0 -
If you resent ex-pats voting without being taxed, why not charge an 'administration' fee for doing it? That has the twin goals of excluding those not interested and introducing a tax element.0
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Cavehill Red wrote: »Should anyone who crosses the border from Newry to buy petrol or smokes be entitled to a vote? What about those visiting from Holyhead on the ferry for a day? Or someone transiting through Shannon? Clearly this is a mockery of the concept of holding a meaningful stake in the society in which you claim suffrage. Such a meaningful stake could only be attained by either being a permanent part of this society as a resident, or emulating that status by filing a full tax return.
In your opinion.
Having a stake in the country doesn't mean you have to fit into this narrow world view. Also, I pay other taxes in Ireland other than VAT as do many other Irish people, I have also paid years of PRSI and income tax. Something that I was happy to do at the time (even though if I returned to Ireland now and failed to get a job I get...em zero, yes zero social welfare benefits.)Cavehill Red wrote: »Slowly, light dawns. That's exactly what I was doing. The tea party (original version) resented being taxed without being represented. I resent the concept of ex-pats being represented without being taxed. This really needn't to have been spelled out, and didn't have to be for anyone else.
Here we get to the nub of it. Resentment, the small mindedness, nimbyism. As I said, for you democracy should only be afforded to those that contribute in the forms of taxation. That is a fair point in some aspects but harks back to the age of Victoria where only men of property could vote. I presume those who are on the dole that are a "burden" of the taxation system should NOT have a vote? Also what are the requirements for your ex-pat taxation system? Should one pay tax at the same rate as they would if they were earning income at home or should there be a tax free threshold of say 100,000 euro like they do in the US?
I myself would not be adverse to such a system if it could afford me a vote BUT it could very quickly become an easy way to raise income for the socialist policies that Ireland love to pursue. If the situation evolved where ALL passports holders had to pay this "tax" then one could see the best and brightest that are leaving now, the vast majority of them renounce their citizenship and that is NOT a good situation for Ireland, in fact it would be a disaster. Anyway, a passport is an expensive item to renew every few years, maybe this should be viewed as your ex-pat tax?
Lastly I find it amusing that we are not talking about the history of emigration and the rich contribution both financially and culturally to Ireland from "ex-pats". Post the famine, the millions of Irish that left for the United States sent untold millions back to their family so that many of them could eat and live. In the 50's the same pattern was repeated again. I have heard estimates in the Billions in the amount of capital that was sent back to Ireland by emigrants to their loved ones. In my mind it is a disgrace, the treatment of these emigrants by the Irish state especially those that are now old and broken in Britain. But sure never mind that, lets keep the age old mantra.
Pay up and shut up and for god sake don't change a thing!0 -
If you resent ex-pats voting without being taxed, why not charge an 'administration' fee for doing it? That has the twin goals of excluding those not interested and introducing a tax element.
That could be easily done but the "taxation" screen is just a ploy for NOT letting this through.0 -
Cavehill Red wrote: »Unlike Britain, which distinguishes a number of levels or statuses of citizenship/subjectship,.....
..... of Ireland entitled to Irish passports already as there are in the country. Most likely quite significantly more.[/B]
OK, well we all know this is just a ploy to scare everyone about this vast unknown alien. You and me both know that the vast vast vast majority of these passport holders would never vote in any election in Ireland.
What was the last turn out in the GE in 2011? 70%? And this was at home!
Anyway, countries with large ex-pat communities get this to work. Countries like Mexico, the Philippines, Italy, UK even India has joined in afaik recently.
It is very very easy to implement a residency term to this ex-pat vote.
E.g. If you have lived and worked (;)) in Ireland during the past 15 years and you are an Irish born Citizen, you can have a vote. Past that time your voting rights expire.
This is something similar that happens in the UK.0 -
OK, well we all know this is just a ploy to scare everyone about this vast unknown alien. You and me both know that the vast vast vast majority of these passport holders would never vote in any election in Ireland.
What was the last turn out in the GE in 2011? 70%? And this was at home!
Anyway, countries with large ex-pat communities get this to work. Countries like Mexico, the Philippines, Italy, UK even India has joined in afaik recently.
It is very very easy to implement a residency term to this ex-pat vote.
E.g. If you have lived and worked (;)) in Ireland during the past 15 years and you are an Irish born Citizen, you can have a vote. Past that time your voting rights expire.
This is something similar that happens in the UK.
Mexico and the Philippines have to let their ex-pats vote because such as huge percentage of their GDP comes from remittances - and even then, in Mexico it was an extremely contentious issue, especially since it was essentially a one-party state until 2000.
I believe that Italy and a few other countries with a history of emigration have "emigrants seats" in the national legislature - so expats can vote, but only for the set-aside representatives. This way, they do have a representative voice, but they can't 'swamp' the system, because the presence of expat reps is not proportional to the expat population.0 -
E.g. If you have lived and worked (;)) in Ireland during the past 15 years and you are an Irish born Citizen, you can have a vote. Past that time your voting rights expire.
This is something similar that happens in the UK.
How many lies do you intend to tell in one thread?
Having destroyed your assertion that there aren't many people out there entitled to vote in Irish elections if they chose, now I'm faced with this utter falsehood.
It demonstrates the lack of validity for your argument when all you can offer is lies to support it.0 -
Cavehill Red wrote: »Robinson set a - to my mind somewhat unconstitutional - position for the presidency vis-a-vis ex-pats. In that context, and its continuation and extension towards the citizens of occupied Ireland by her successor, and the fact that the presidency is largely ceremonial, I could potentially be persuaded that ex-patriates might be permitted a vote on the presidency.
However, it is notable that worldwide the number of potential Irish passport holders is a number of factors greater than the population of the Republic.
The title of this thread is Voting Rights For Irish Born Citizens Living Abroad. The estimated number of thoe people is 800,000. The number of potential Irish passport holders has no relevance to this thread.0 -
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Cavehill Red wrote: »How many lies do you intend to tell in one thread?
Having destroyed your assertion that there aren't many people out there entitled to vote in Irish elections if they chose, now I'm faced with this utter falsehood.
It demonstrates the lack of validity for your argument when all you can offer is lies to support it.
Cavehill Red, I have already warned you to cool it on this thread. Dont post on it again. Accusing other posters of lying is against the charter, which I suggest you take a look at before posting in this forum again.
If you have any questions, take it to PM.
SSR0 -
E.g. If you have lived and worked (;)) in Ireland during the past 15 years and you are an Irish born Citizen, you can have a vote. Past that time your voting rights expire..
Excuse me?? You might want to rephrase that. Because you seem to be implying that citizens born outside Ireland will be excluded. Are you proposing a dual-level citizenship based on place of birth?0 -
Cavehill Red wrote: »Please identify for me someone in Ireland who pays zero tax. There aren't any.
This is Ireland. We are, despite rumours to the contrary, a sovereign nation. What other countries do is not of concern.
The USA demands tax returns from all its overseas citizens in return for the right to suffrage. I see no reason why Irish ex-pats should enjoy influence over somewhere they do not live without, as residents do, paying taxes towards the state.
Based on 2009 tax data about 770,000 earned less then 17,000euros. All of them paid little or no income tax due to various tax credits. In fact the average tax rate of the above group was 0.5%. So based on these numbers some of them would not be allowed vote according to your belief that the right to vote should be contingent on paying tax.
Personally as I have pointed out elsewhere I prefer to look on Irish born citizens living abroad in a postive light and as a group of talented people who can bring many positives to the table and help in many ways to rebuild and grow our country. I think already the government recognizes this through the Global Irish Network and other initiatives aimed at getting the Irish abroad involved economically in the country. I support and think these initiatives are good ideas but right now they only touch the surface potential given how big a role emigration has and sadly is playing in our country. Encouraging these Irish especially those many who have achieved success in various fields to use their contacts and expertise to help Ireland can be a massive benefit to Ireland. Giving those Irish born living abroad a true and full voice in Ireland by having say an ex pat constituency which they vote for would help encourage their participation and willingness to help as well as giving them rightfully a voice that reflects and represents their contributions.
Currently the Irish government approach sadly is very negative in it's message. Put up the money and then shut up. I say give the ex pats their own constituency within the Dail. Give them a say in how their contributions to Ireland are used. Allow them to be a positive force in Ireland.0 -
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This is the elephant in the room. Why is this thread repeatedly referring to Irish-born as though they are different to Irish citizens could someone explain??
Because there are millions of people in the US with an Irish-born grandparent who could potentially qualify for citizenship. So I think there is some sense that in order to have voting rights, there needs to be a more recent, tangible connection to Ireland than the fact that your granddad left Clare 80 years ago.0 -
southsiderosie wrote: »Because there are millions of people in the US with an Irish-born grandparent who could potentially qualify for citizenship.
Keyword, potentially. There are are also a hell of a lot of Irish citizens who were born elsewhere. I know at least three who were born abroad and now live in Ireland.southsiderosie wrote: »So I think there is some sense that in order to have voting rights, there needs to be a more recent, tangible connection to Ireland than the fact that your granddad left Clare 80 years ago.
I agree. But being born in Ireland no longer makes you a citizen, we had a rather shameful referendum on that. Surely a better definition of a "a more recent, tangible connection" would be a PPS number and a tax record. Otherwise you give voting rights to a person who left Ireland at six months of age and denying them to someone who paid 30 years of taxes.0 -
southsiderosie wrote: »Mexico and the Philippines have to let their ex-pats vote because such as huge percentage of their GDP comes from remittances - and even then, in Mexico it was an extremely contentious issue, especially since it was essentially a one-party state until 2000.
I believe that Italy and a few other countries with a history of emigration have "emigrants seats" in the national legislature - so expats can vote, but only for the set-aside representatives. This way, they do have a representative voice, but they can't 'swamp' the system, because the presence of expat reps is not proportional to the expat population.
Not sure about now but historcially as I mentioned huge ammount of capital was sent back to ireland but these emmigrants got nothing in return.
Having a consituenvy for ex-pats would be an acceptable solution as well. At least give these people a voice. I am glad you are actually discussing how such a system could be implemented rather then taking the most extreme case of how bad a decision this could become.
I get the "fear" out there that if we introduced voting from abroad, that the entire system would be turned upside down. I get that. But what we have now is no-where suitable for a 21st century western democracy. We should be talking about this now, not in 5-10 years time when we want to attract back those that left when things got bad. We don't even get a say in who the president is and that is totally ceremonial. But there will always be naysayers. The Bull McCabe is alive and well!0 -
Not sure about now but historcially as I mentioned huge ammount of capital was sent back to ireland but these emmigrants got nothing in return.
Having a consituenvy for ex-pats would be an acceptable solution as well. At least give these people a voice. I am glad you are actually discussing how such a system could be implemented rather then taking the most extreme case of how bad a decision this could become.
I get the "fear" out there that if we introduced voting from abroad, that the entire system would be turned upside down. I get that. But what we have now is no-where suitable for a 21st century western democracy. We should be talking about this now, not in 5-10 years time when we want to attract back those that left when things got bad. We don't even get a say in who the president is and that is totally ceremonial. But there will always be naysayers. The Bull McCabe is alive and well!
I wonder is some of that fear not generated by the corrupt politcians who have brought Ireland to it's current sorry economic state. They fear a backlash.
But given the role historically Ireland's emigrants have played and can potentially continue to play in rebuilding our country I find it hard to see how creating an ex pat constituency for which the Irish born citizens living abroad would vote for can be anything other then a major plus for Ireland. Certainly there is no way and no suggestion by anyone of some swamping of home based voters.0 -
But given the role historically Ireland's emigrants have played and can potentially continue to play in rebuilding our country I find it hard to see how creating an ex pat constituency for which the Irish born citizens living abroad would vote for can be anything other then a major plus for Ireland. Certainly there is no way and no suggestion by anyone of some swamping of home based voters.
Fine, but let's nip this 'Irish-born' crap in the bud. I can see that phrase becoming the new 'non-national'.0 -
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