[EuropeanSon]

Originally Posted by oppenheimer1

Go to which ever is closer or is more convenient to get to, or where your friends are going. At undergraduate level there is zero difference between UCD and TCD - and that goes across all subjects and departments.

You are talking nonsense here. Perhaps that is true across most departments, but there are certainly exceptions, notably in Mathematics and TP in Trinity, and (from what I've heard) Business courses in UCD. Certainly the Maths degrees you can get from TCD are far better than anything you can get from UCD.

[oppenheimer1]

Originally Posted by EuropeanSon

You are talking nonsense here. Perhaps that is true across most departments, but there are certainly exceptions, notably in Mathematics and TP in Trinity, and (from what I've heard) Business courses in UCD. Certainly the Maths degrees you can get from TCD are far better than anything you can get from UCD.

The acid test of your argument is that with all other things being equal, would a person with a II.II degree in maths from Trinity, get a job or postgraduate place ahead of someone with a II.I degree (or even a II.II degree) from UCD.


I doubt it.

The maths undergrads in Trinity are having delusions of grandeur if they really think their degree is worth more than someone elses from another Irish university.

[EuropeanSon]

Originally Posted by oppenheimer1

The acid test of your argument is that with all other things being equal, would a person with a II.II degree in maths from Trinity, get a job or postgraduate place ahead of someone with a II.I degree (or even a II.II degree) from UCD.


I doubt it.

The maths undergrads in Trinity are having delusions of grandeur if they really think their degree is worth more than someone elses from another Irish university.

You are entitled to doubt it all you like (given your lack of any knowledge on the matter, or at least your failure to make any you do have clear, forgive me if I don't care), but I would say yes possibly to the former, and yes definitely to the latter.

Certainly for postgrad places, a first or 2:1 from TCD is considerably better than one from UCD. (Let me stress to anyone reading this without context, I am referring strictly to Maths related degrees here, and not in general to TCD vs UCD degrees)

[Lisandro]

Originally Posted by oppenheimer1

The maths undergrads in Trinity are having delusions of grandeur if they really think their degree is worth more than someone elses from another Irish university.

I think you'll find that degrees from some universities carry a lot more weight than a degree from another university. It is the reason I would be somewhat more likely to get employed/further studies if I graduate with a degree from Oxford or Cambridge as opposed to an equivalent degree with DIT or IADT (with all due respect to those two institutions).


The point is the institution from which you get a degree isn't arbitrary; this is a direct result of competition between universities to provide the best education and facilities for its students. Trinity College as of 2011 was ranked the 15th best in the world when it comes to mathematics. UCD meanwhile was ranked in the top 150.


Once again, with all due respect to UCD, there is a vast disproportionality between those rankings to the extent that an employer/institution cannot plausibly ignore them. That is the way these things work in the real world, in case you thought this was all just an arrogant assertion of personal opinion.

[oppenheimer1]

Originally Posted by Lisandro

I think you'll find that degrees from some universities carry a lot more weight than a degree from another university. It is the reason I would be somewhat more likely to get employed/further studies if I graduate with a degree from Oxford or Cambridge as opposed to an equivalent degree with DIT or IADT (with all due respect to those two institutions).


The point is the institution from which you get a degree isn't arbitrary; this is a direct result of competition between universities to provide the best education and facilities for its students. Trinity College as of 2011 was ranked the 15th best in the world when it comes to mathematics. UCD meanwhile was ranked in the top 150.


Once again, with all due respect to UCD, there is a vast disproportionality between those rankings to the extent that an employer/institution cannot plausibly ignore them. That is the way these things work in the real world, in case you thought this was all just an arrogant assertion of personal opinion.

If you cared to read my other posts, you would have noticed that I did say that there was an appreciable difference in quality across universities in the UK. The university sector over there is much broader however. There is some real difference in quality say between the golden triangle/russell group and the former polys, but much of the difference over there is more to do with issues of heritage and class. Yes employers are sensitive to it. Thet are also sensitive to the a degree from a university over an institute of technology or new private college here too unfortunately. The 7 universities don't suffer from such prejudices though.

Trinity College has a mathematics department that is ranked highly in the world, much higher than that at UCD. I don't deny that. Ranking is strongly based on academic output, papers, research, citations etc. Teaching is not given a serious consideration in academic rankings. The department could be full of Fields medals but that wont make a taught undergraduate course any better than one in a department that has none. A department that has prolific publishing is actually more likely to have a poor undergraduate course as all the effort is put into research.

Its delusions of grandeur if you really think a TCD graduate has a better chance than a UCD graduate at getting employment/postgrad based on their BA alone.

[Lisandro]

Originally Posted by oppenheimer1

...much of the difference over there is more to do with issues of heritage and class...

To suggest that employers/institutions judge based on heritage and class, but not on the reputation and quality of that department is somewhat myopic to the way these processes work. They take into account a broad selection of criteria, and if an academic department is inside the top twenty in any internationally recognised university rankings, employers have a good reason to sit up and take notice. It is not the only nor the most important criteria, but to suggest it doesn't even register is to deny the impact of differences in quality between departments. Even if your assertion were true, the international reputation and history of Trinity alone should surely pander to that prejudice.

Originally Posted by oppenheimer1

Trinity College has a mathematics department that is ranked highly in the world, much higher than that at UCD. I don't deny that. Ranking is strongly based on academic output, papers, research, citations etc.

Well, these parameters do have an effect on the way a department is perceived. Academic output, papers, etc. suggest a very productive department with not only active staff but active students as well, as most institutions have a range of internships and research programmes that involve students. Employers and institutions are to some extent self-interested and selection of graduates isn't arbitrary; the fact is a department with a high standard of output will generally have a high standard of internal quality, and this isn't a factor that's ignored.

Originally Posted by oppenheimer1

Teaching is not given a serious consideration in academic rankings. The department could be full of Fields medals but that wont make a taught undergraduate course any better than one in a department that has none.

Well, they can't really test the teaching short of attending lectures themselves, so that's understandable. The chances are, however, that a department full of Fields medals is pretty damn good and the lecturers are probably bringing a depth of quality that you're unlikely to get anywhere else. It's also quite well known that the maths department offers very advanced modules, in pure mathematics and in theoretical physics, particularly with respect to analysis, where the maths department has a strong reputation for excellence. Even if the rankings didn't reflect this, the general standard of teaching in the department is not a secret.

Originally Posted by oppenheimer1

A department that has prolific publishing is actually more likely to have a poor undergraduate course as all the effort is put into research.

That is predicated on the rather false assumption that a high quality of research work and undergraduate teaching are mutually exclusive. There are almost as many counterexamples to this as there are top universities.

Originally Posted by oppenheimer1

Its delusions of grandeur if you really think a TCD graduate has a better chance than a UCD graduate at getting employment/postgrad based on their BA alone.

Really, is our assessment that outlandish? In general, I can acknowledge that differences between departments in universities aren't that appreciable, but the difference in reputation as far as the maths department is concerned is particularly pronounced.

[EuropeanSon]

Originally Posted by oppenheimer1

If you cared to read my other posts, you would have noticed that I did say that there was an appreciable difference in quality across universities in the UK. The university sector over there is much broader however. There is some real difference in quality say between the golden triangle/russell group and the former polys, but much of the difference over there is more to do with issues of heritage and class. Yes employers are sensitive to it. Thet are also sensitive to the a degree from a university over an institute of technology or new private college here too unfortunately. The 7 universities don't suffer from such prejudices though.

Trinity College has a mathematics department that is ranked highly in the world, much higher than that at UCD. I don't deny that. Ranking is strongly based on academic output, papers, research, citations etc. Teaching is not given a serious consideration in academic rankings. The department could be full of Fields medals but that wont make a taught undergraduate course any better than one in a department that has none. A department that has prolific publishing is actually more likely to have a poor undergraduate course as all the effort is put into research.

Its delusions of grandeur if you really think a TCD graduate has a better chance than a UCD graduate at getting employment/postgrad based on their BA alone.

You are repeating yourself, and providing no basis for your argument. This discussion is no longer useful.

[Enkidu]

Originally Posted by EuropeanSon

You are entitled to doubt it all you like (given your lack of any knowledge on the matter, or at least your failure to make any you do have clear, forgive me if I don't care), but I would say yes possibly to the former, and yes definitely to the latter.

For the vast majority of mathematics masters and PhDs a 2:1 or 1:1 from practically anywhere is superior to a 2:2 from practically anywhere else. You are mainly judged based on the interview (if you are asked for one), personal statement and overall degree results. I know of a case (physics research at Oxford) where a UCD student with a good degree got a position instead of a TCD student with a lower degree result.

Trinity is the best university for research in Ireland in most fields, but an undergraduate is not really affecting their postgraduate opportunities by doing a degree elsewhere.

[Lisandro]

Originally Posted by Enkidu

Trinity is the best university for research in Ireland in most fields, but an undergraduate is not really affecting their postgraduate opportunities by doing a degree elsewhere.

Yes. I think it should be emphasised for anyone who's skimmed down to the bottom that the discussion about reputation and how that affects the perceptions of employers and institutions is generally overshadowed by personal factors, such as approach, enthusiasm, evidence of engagement beyond what is normally encountered in the degree. Reputation normally can only be observed when all else is equal.