Ares TAR-21 Tavor Review-Discussion

Firekitten · 03-08-2009 1:53am

A little late perhaps.

Anyone spending this much on an aeg really ought to have a slight clue... half a turn of a motor screw will have little to no effect on the hight at all... perhaps a quater of a milimeter difference... 'if half doesnt work' turn till it does... I dont see where this requires some form of massive intelect.

Call me arrogant, call me a bitch, I really dont care. but hey, its the jump on kitten bandwaggon, **** sense.

Puding · 03-08-2009 9:04am

Anyone spending this much on an aeg really ought to have a slight clue... half a turn of a motor screw will have little to no effect on the hight at all...

really? from personal experience i would say different but then that could just be me i can not stand a wineing gearbox, so im normally dialing it right in to get a nices sounding gear box then thread locking the gub screw

i can only talk for my own tavor but the height adjustment only has about 1080 degress of travel so 3 complete turns, 1/2 a turn is a lot and can make a big difference to the sound, half could mean the difference been an ok gearbox, to the motor being too high putting undue strain on the motor and draining more juice from your battery

Re motor screw adjustment. Thanks to all who replied except Firekitten ,the reason I asked is that in turning the screw half a turn either direction the is no change in motor noise.

your best bet then would be to play about with the hight of the motor first without any fireing, screw the grub screw all the way in you should be able to see the motor moving a little, know you could have the same problem i had, on mine the plate from the top of the motor was missing so the screw had to be almost all the way to the end of its travel before making contact with the motor,

once you have screwed the grub screw all the way in start to unscrew again noting how many full turns is needed before the motor does not move any more, once you have done this screw the grub screw in again but only by half the amount of travel, if the motor had 4 full turns of travel adjust it back in again by two this time, know test fire and ajust up or down as needed

but this is only one way of doing it i prefer to do small steps and semi, another way is how masada mention with firing on auto and adjusting the height as you do this

in the above picture you can see the disc that was missing from mine originally, if this is missing the grub screw has further to travel to make contact with the motor, it also means the that grub screw is making contact with the motors shaft, this can lead to other problems i had on mine of the grub screw tightening itself when the aeg was firing on auto and locking up

Craigsy · 03-08-2009 12:13pm

Might interest some folk

http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/ReviewDetail?reviewID=229

Firekitten · 03-08-2009 12:47pm

Wow... Someone other than me thought it was good... Fancy that.:rolleyes:

Captain Chaos · 03-08-2009 2:04pm

I wonder how the review would have went if had got one without a hop unit fitted. Or even a few like that, first impressions and all that. But I tend to give things a few chances to really sus them out.

Lemming · 03-08-2009 2:37pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I wonder how the review would have went if had got one without a hop unit fitted. Or even a few like that, first impressions and all that.

It would have gone something like this:

"We're not reviewing this until you give us one that is in working order".

A missing hop-up is not the AEG's fault (unless of course by intentional design .. which it isn't in this case), it's a quality control issue that can be laid directly at the feet of the manufacturers, as should really be blindingly obvious to all and sundry. This should be common sense, as it isn't a circumstance unique to airsoft but every manufactured product throughout the history of creation.

Firekitten · 03-08-2009 2:54pm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

I wonder how the review would have went if had got one without a hop unit fitted. Or even a few like that, first impressions and all that. But I tend to give things a few chances to really sus them out.

Becaues they took the faulty ones back to get one that worked before reviewing it. OR, like most, the tavor was fine ... Spain, England, And the far East seem to have great tavors... the US and Ireland... woops

Captain Chaos · 03-08-2009 3:15pm

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slating the Ares Tar21 out right, I have been looking forward to one ever since the rumors started that Ares were working on it and I really really still want to get one. My hop up comment was in a light hearted tone but I it's a touche subject. But while everywhere else are geting fine working examples, Ares are not doing themselves any favors on the Irish and US markets. Suppose they couldn't really care less about the ones that get sent here, its not like we are a major target consumers market that are going to make massive waves to their profits.

It might be a good idea to start getting a rough list of serial numbers of the TARs that a fine and the ones with problems to try and isolate dodgy batches and to test the water as it were. We then might be able to ID different production lines and find out what suppliers are getting their AEGs from where.

Firekitten · 03-08-2009 3:30pm

That's the point... its less than a 'dont care' its a ****ty batch where say one staff member was half asleep or pissed and it skipped qc.. or he WAS on qc... anything... its hardly a lack of caring. Chinese manufacturers give a **** abou the western market MUCH more than any others.... hell, when did tm listen to anyone outside japan?

Who changed thier ak barrels from alu to brass and then went on to change to tm compatable hop units in the same ak? the now respected cyma... same with thier g18c too... its performance out strips the tm one.

Ares do care, Its literally an error of batches, as evidenced by the individual batches to certain nations having issues. If they didnt care, they would do it to all not just some that are fairly isolated by shipping issues.

Masada · 03-08-2009 7:38pm

At the end of the day though, if you fork out over 500 quid for one, and its not working as it should. bad review inevitable.
To have ares "forget" to fit things like the motor shim in pudings to hopup wheels on others is very off putting. maybe they'll get better and i hope they do. i still want one, but they all come from the same place and your as likely to get a lemon from the UK or ireland as you are from the US. the reviews out there confirm this.

QC can be debated all day without anything useful coming from it so more importantly,
what are peoples averages in terms of FPS and RPS before tinkering with the gearbox? what ya'll think about carrying one all day? from what I've heard it feels a bit unbalanced yet others swear by it.

Firekitten · 03-08-2009 8:04pm

Ok, some irish batches have been bad, but point me to a bad uk review... as far as I know.. mine is one of the few from the uk, and is positive...

Most of asia are happy.

Bad batch <-- try that word.

Redwolf are in hongkong... and like any airsofter SHOULD, if they recive a defective product, they dont review a non working or defective item, its bias. They send it back, like anyone who spent 500quid , as you keep pointing out SHOULD.... If it doesnt work, as for a replacement, have we all forgotten consumer rights and decide to sit and whine on the net instead?

Lemming · 03-08-2009 8:07pm

Masada wrote: »

At the end of the day though, if you fork out over 500 quid for one, and its not working as it should. bad review inevitable.
To have ares "forget" to fit things like the motor shim in pudings to hopup wheels on others is very off putting. maybe they'll get better and i hope they do. i still want one, but they all come from the same place and your as likely to get a lemon from the UK or ireland as you are from the US. the reviews out there confirm this.

Sorry Richie, but this perplexes me. Is there an airsofter gene or something that removes common sense were faulty kit is concerned? If I spent that amount of money and got something that wasn't working I would not be shy about seeking a repair, replacement, or refund which is your right as a consumer.

Yes it's annoying as hell but at the end of the day you have not received what you paid for and such rather than complaining about it to other airsofters (in typical Irish fasion to bitch and moan in the pub) your first port of call should be to the retailer and/or manufacturer to seek redress (and complain).

Granted, if I kept receiving dud repair/replacement's I'd question the model's design. Do people immediately complain that a TV model is crap because theirs doesn't turn on or has a massive gash in the screen upon arrival? Or do they scream blue murder and get a refund or replacement? Why can't airsofters do the same?

Edit: beaten to it by Firekitten. Oh well, must type faster next time

Puding · 03-08-2009 8:24pm

your post lemming has a lot of truth,

if i was new into the sport and brought the tavor i would have been straight back to the shop (a big advantage of buying in Ireland of course)

but i brought the tavor know the problem, i do a lot of research before and purchase there is vast array of information out admittedly you have to wade thought the piles of crap out there on the internet but you soon develop filters to sort fact from crap

i know people where getting lock up problems that the mars was rubbish all the stuff, and tbh i had even more trouble than i thought i would get, i must have pumped 20+ hours so far into the tavor and i;ve had it less than a month :rolleyes: but if you look at airsoft practically then you only need one aeg as tbh there all the same inside!

but when it came down to it other than the pos mars all the other problems are QC issues i have not had to replace anything the build quality all round is excellent if the quality control was picked up they would be onto a classic, i;ve had people come to the shop looking for the tavor and i;ve told them to wait, wait until the relationship between the two half's of ares are know

http://www.aresusa.com/

http://www.aresairsoft.com/

beacuse the products distributed by each of them do have slight differences, still my emails in regard to this differences and the relation ship have not been answered by either web site

from someone who brought one even thought i love it and i love skirmishing with it , i say wait, wait for the cyber gun release or wait until the price comes down, the cost is inflated

sorry bit of a brain rant :rolleyes:

Masada · 03-08-2009 8:40pm

Lemming wrote: »

Granted, if I kept receiving dud repair/replacement's I'd question the model's design. Do people immediately complain that a TV model is crap because theirs doesn't turn on or has a massive gash in the screen upon arrival? Or do they scream blue murder and get a refund or replacement? Why can't airsofters do the same?

Edit: beaten to it by Firekitten. Oh well, must type faster next time

Would that not be a case of "yore TV was broken/smashed" and would have been perfect when i was assembled?
Since the ares problem is more to do with them not bothering to install vital parts, not just damaging existing one, i would say your comparison is way off.

If you bought this in an Irish retailer then chances are you'll be grand, but if you bought it from asia your chances of getting sorted out with no extra cost to yourself are slim to none.
Also, from experience, If you plan on contacting Ares regarding replacement parts, you are pi$$ing in the wind. Ive sent a ridiculous amount of emails to them about parts so i am very weary of buying another gun that uses unique gearbox when they don't bother to reply to ya.

Lemming · 03-08-2009 8:51pm

Masada wrote: »

Would that not be a case of "yore TV was broken/smashed" and would have been perfect when i was assembled?

That's a bit of a false argument since you're now adding conditions. it doesn't matter if it was assembled and then damaged or the guy was asleep whilst assembling it and didn't notice any one of a number of possible faults or just didn't test it or whatever. My point is that you wouldn't quietly not stand for it and then moan to your mates in the pub about it. But we seem to think this is acceptbale in the world of airsoft.

Since the ares problem is more to do with them not bothering to install vital parts, not just damaging existing one, i would say your comparison is way off.

Not really - no more way off than any other manufacturer in any industry in the world not paying attention.

If you bought this in an Irish retailer then chances are you'll be grand, but if you bought it from asia your chances of getting sorted out with no extra cost to yourself are slim to none.

Them is unfortunately the breaks when you order from so far away. That's by your choice that you've done so. I'm not dismissing it, but there's really not much to say here except that it was by your choice to order from asia. I'd point out that it really doesn't matter again if it's an AEG or a TV you ordered.

Also, from experience, If you plan on contacting Ares regarding replacement parts, you are pi$$ing in the wind. Ive sent a ridiculous amount of emails to them about parts so i am very weary of buying another gun that uses unique gearbox when they don't bother to reply to ya.

A wall of silence is not good of course so no arguments there.

Masada · 03-08-2009 11:11pm

I'm not gonna argue with ya bout it, cant see the point in getting too involved since its only a toy gun were talkin about.

I just don't think we've seen enough to convince me its a good gun for the price.
sure, even puding has said it took a lot of tinkering to get his right and like myself, he would be no stranger to the mechanicals of a gun. I'd value his opinion over most really.

Levy613 · 04-08-2009 9:46am

I have just purchased a Tavor TAR-21 and have had loads of problems with the firing, be it in either semi or auto mode.

I am using the 8.4 battery as recommended and it is still the same.

Been talking to Zeroone airsoft who I have purchased it from, but they are also having the same problems with the rest of the Tavor's TAR_21 that they stock.

Also been on the phone to Ares 5 times speaking to Carmen (WHO IS A WASTE OF TIME) and 6 emails just asking them to contact zerooneairsoft. to disgust the problem. but the problem is Ares is thay dont give a flying fig.AVIOD THEM:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:. If only ICS made the tavor as i have M4. MP5. SIGG552. and AK74 and no problems.

Puding · 04-08-2009 9:49am

does not help that zero one are not exactly the best when it comes to customer service in my experience

Captain Chaos · 04-08-2009 9:50am

Can you go into more detail about the problems you are having firing the AEG? Members here who have one have stripped them down and put them back together again and my be able to suggest a fix to the problem.

Levy613 · 04-08-2009 10:14am

Thanks for getting back to me.

Basically when I fire the gun in semi mode, aproximately 10-15 shots later the gun stops firing. There are no noises, clicks or any warning sound of any sort.

When i switch it into full auto and pull the trigger several times no shots are fired and then it will randomly start firing again.

Then it stops yet again. I did send it back to Zeroone. They stripped it down and did NOT discover any loose wiring. They checked all their other Tavor's and all presented the same problem.I sent Zeroone all the info you sent me and the pictures and thay did try but it led to another problem.the person at zeroone i gave it to is neil who has been in contact with all the time.

Puding · 04-08-2009 10:38am

As from your previous post in the trouble shooting section my money is on the gearbox locking up on semi thought the gearbox to cycling fully, i had this issue untill i stripped the gearbox down made shore the microswitch and assosiated control block where moving freely and making shore the control rod for the trigger was set up correctly to allow a full range of movement, this illiminated the issue for me.

Problem is its not a set one two three fix you need to look at the components dry fit them and check everything is fitting correctly and interacting as it should, you need a tech who is as it where going to 'think outside the box' your not following a guide in AI.

By this stage i would have expected a refund from zero if it went back to them and they can not fix it, its not your issue, and the retailer should take it up with there suppler, you live in the uk i believe and brought in the uk so use you consumer rights

Levy613 · 04-08-2009 11:15am

zeroone did offer my a refund but that puts me back to not having the tavor.and if i get another one from another ste it may be the same. i just left it with them to try to fix..did you put more pictures up.:D

Firekitten · 04-08-2009 11:42am

Its not an error really...

Nearly all bulpup rifles get that issue... Tavor and Sa80 are prime examples...
Mine does it, but i dont even consider it an issue, if i pull the trigger normal speed of repetition its fine, if i have to pull it fast enough to jam, i need to be on auto, if it james, swap to auto, clear the jam, sorotf realistic lol, i dont even notice.

Masada · 04-08-2009 12:12pm

Levy613 wrote: »

I have just purchased a Tavor TAR-21 and have had loads of problems with the firing, be it in either semi or auto mode.

I am using the 8.4 battery as recommended and it is still the same.

Been talking to Zeroone airsoft who I have purchased it from, but they are also having the same problems with the rest of the Tavor's TAR_21 that they stock.

Also been on the phone to Ares 5 times speaking to Carmen (WHO IS A WASTE OF TIME) and 6 emails just asking them to contact zerooneairsoft. to disgust the problem. but the problem is Ares is thay dont give a flying fig.AVIOD THEM:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:. If only ICS made the tavor as i have M4. MP5. SIGG552. and AK74 and no problems.

Sorry to hear your having so much hassle with it man, you would probably be better off asking for a refund at this stage.

After reading this, anyone who passionately defends the Tavor needs their head examined. so much for the UK getting good ones. zero-one are UK and apparently all theirs have problems.

I'll buy one when tey halve the price and start selling parts, answer emails etc etc.

Puding · 04-08-2009 12:20pm

well how it breaks down for me is any units from hongkong could have issues, this seem to be comign from http://www.aresairsoft.com/

the one brought thought ares usa, different webs site (http://www.aresusa.com/ ) come with a qc and are checked they even come with a little cert tag on the aeg (from what i've seen of us reviews, as far as i can see the us distributor is running additional QC checks as they are the same aeg

Firekitten · 04-08-2009 12:23pm

Masada wrote: »

Sorry to hear your having so much hassle with it man, you would probably be better off asking for a refund at this stage.

After reading this, anyone who passionately defends the Tavor needs their head examined. so much for the UK getting good ones. zero-one are UK and apparently all theirs have problems.

I'll buy one when tey halve the price and start selling parts, answer emails etc etc.

Stop being a drama whore richie...
Look at it from a tech standpoint, its a semi auto issue in a bullpup, and you know why that is...
Im sorry, but one non issue with zero one's lot, and to be honest i dont rate zero one to even have a clue personaly... dont dis en entire country for one shop.
Mine works, mine came from the uk, I'll defend the rifle all i bloody like...

Masada · 04-08-2009 12:34pm

Firekitten wrote: »

Stop being a drama whore richie...
Look at it from a tech standpoint, its a semi auto issue in a bullpup, and you know why that is...
Im sorry, but one non issue with zero one's lot, and to be honest i dont rate zero one to even have a clue personaly... dont dis en entire country for one shop.
Mine works, mine came from the uk, I'll defend the rifle all i bloody like...

I take offence to that,
you really need to cop on and stop being so personal about what is a discussion on a toy gun. I'm shocked ths thread has been allowed to carry on wit this sort of carry on.

My point is theres too many bad reviews out there to assure me this is a good gun. yours seems to be the only one ive heard of that is trouble free, and I know 2 people with them and then theres the number of people on here who have had problems.

Firekitten · 04-08-2009 12:37pm

Too many reviews in this country....

I have a long list of happy users... im sorry, its you thats taking this personally too...

Mate, you;re utterly bias here, and a considerable number of reviews, infact, the only actual reviews, all love the tavor. people whining on forums have the issues... odd that, no actual review telling of how evil and bad it is... very odd.
:rolleyes:

Lemming · 04-08-2009 12:38pm

I think everyone needs to step back here.

Ok, so Ares are making a complete hash of their QC procedures as is quite evident by the diametrically opposing experiences users are having. On the one hand, good copies of the TAR-21 do exist and I've encounted more than one player with them in the field (not just read formal reviews), thus showing that it is a damn good preformer as a design. On the other hand, we have what appears to be not insignificant numbers of owners having serious issues, not with the design but with the build quality and attention to care put into their own TARs.

What can we deduce from this?

Ares (Asia) are being complete mongs. They have a winner on their hands ... if they can pull their collective arses out of the fire and deliver consistency to end users. It's quite telling that Ares USA are applying QC since the N.American market will not be shy about tearing the company a new one with very bad publicity and/or class action lawsuits. I'm appalled at their apparent lack of communication as it i sin their own best interest to do so. You're only as good as the last project/product/whatever you worked on and buyers will remember that and subsequent Ares products will suffer for some duration of time.

It's not a "shoite" AEG as some seem to think (and I disagree with them), but I would most definitely recommend anyone interested in buying one to hold off and wait until Ares put their house in order. Or at least be prepared to get ones hands dirty with the inner workings.

Rew · 04-08-2009 12:50pm

Firekitten wrote: »

Stop being a drama whore richie...
Look at it from a tech standpoint, its a semi auto issue in a bullpup, and you know why that is...
Im sorry, but one non issue with zero one's lot, and to be honest i dont rate zero one to even have a clue personaly... dont dis en entire country for one shop.
Mine works, mine came from the uk, I'll defend the rifle all i bloody like...

Less of the remarks directed at others thanks. Its a discussion forum and people get to whinge, you included.

Can EVERYONE please remember that its your opinion and others may not necessarily agree.

Ares TAR-21 Tavor Review-Discussion

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