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Should Irish be an optional subject not a cumpulsory one

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93



    The more contact you have with a language the more you will learn it without actually working at it.

    I disagree - most of us have been in contact with the Irish language for 14 years, and most students havn't learned a thing since first speaking it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »
    I disagree - most of us have been in contact with the Irish language for 14 years, and most students havn't learned a thing since first speaking it.


    The truth of the matter is that most students who have studied Irish for 14 years in school but have had little or no contact with the language outside the classroom have had about 1200 hours of contact with the language, not even enough to achieve a basic ability in a language (1500 hours of contact time) as set down in the Canadian education system.

    More contact time outside the classroom will improve the students ability to speak the language, It takes 5000 hours to reach a high level of competence/fluency according to the Canadians.

    It is not realistic to expect someone to learn Irish or any language to fluency through school alone, that is why the atempt by the state to revive the Language through the education system alone has and will continue to fail, oppertunities to use the language outside the school gate are vital if fluency in Irish is going to spread.

    Wibbs wrote: »
    Maybe. I'll believe it when I see it though.

    I am talking about primary schools that have already been confirmed to be opening between 2012 and 2015. Of the 17 that will open, at least 4 will be Gaelscoils.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14 kellybutler


    i would love if i knew the irish language better , it should be compulsory


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    i would love if i knew the irish language better , it should be compulsory


    While I agree with you, I still think I should point out that Irish does not need to be compulsory for you to learn it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,298 ✭✭✭Namlub


    i would love if i knew the irish language better , it should be compulsory

    You'd like to speak Irish, therefore it should be compulsory for school students?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,876 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    The truth of the matter is that most students who have studied Irish for 14 years in school but have had little or no contact with the language outside the classroom have had about 1200 hours of contact with the language, not even enough to achieve a basic ability in a language (1500 hours of contact time) as set down in the Canadian education system.

    More contact time outside the classroom will improve the students ability to speak the language, It takes 5000 hours to reach a high level of competence/fluency according to the Canadians.

    It is not realistic to expect someone to learn Irish or any language to fluency through school alone, that is why the atempt by the state to revive the Language through the education system alone has and will continue to fail, oppertunities to use the language outside the school gate are vital if fluency in Irish is going to spread.

    Therein lies the problem: not optional/compulsory, actual usage. And yet you still favour trying to force people. The education system has no control over what happens outside school gates.

    Whether the Irish language continues to get by or flourishes, the idea of having every student in the country to study it will, as you point out, have little or no meaningful impact.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    It is not realistic to expect someone to learn Irish or any language to fluency through school alone, that is why the atempt by the state to revive the Language through the education system alone has and will continue to fail, oppertunities to use the language outside the school gate are vital if fluency in Irish is going to spread.
    QUOTE]

    The problem there however is that very few Irish kids will use Irish outside of school - for two reasons: 1. There's no point in doing so - Everyone speaks English perfectly, and we're getting on just fine just speaking it to each other, it's much easier to speak your primary language than it is to speak a language you don't ever use. Also nobody else will understand you if you speak Irish to them. If I was fluent and started speaking it to one of my friends, most would stare blankly at you, not having the slightest clue what you're saying. So there's not point in speaking it if nobody can understand you.


    and 2: Because Irish is compulsory, a.k.a forced on kids, they develop resentment towards the language and wish it to burn in a hole, driving them away from future usage of Irish. If something's forced on you, like Irish, then you'll learn to hate it. Plain & simple. I always hated school for that reason. A slave for example, wouldn't ever dream about going back to do the activity that was forced upon him.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »
    The problem there however is that very few Irish kids will use Irish outside of school - for two reasons: 1. There's no point in doing so - Everyone speaks English perfectly, and we're getting on just fine just speaking it to each other, it's much easier to speak your primary language than it is to speak a language you don't ever use. Also nobody else will understand you if you speak Irish to them. If I was fluent and started speaking it to one my friends, most stare blankly at you, not having the slightest clue what you're saying. So there's not point in speaking it if nobody can undrstand you.
    This is a large part of it. Observe both Terry Wogan and Stephen Fry in their respective programmes asking kids, Irish speaking kids what language they texted and tweeted in. It wasn't Irish. Hell a while back when some were tweeting about this very site and how it was "anti Irish language" the vast majority were tweeting in? You guessed it. English.

    I would personally reckon a language reaches a point where it dips below a certain level and at that point it's on life support. Trite as that phrase is. It becomes a minority and/or hobby horse and/or political language. It may survive, even go up for a time, but the environment it lives in, the environment of everyday communication has changed. It becomes the rare parrot in the zoo and safari park, extinct in the wild. Irish has not(thankfully) gotten to the stage of the last parrot in the zoo, but it's environment is shrinking and has been for at least two centuries. It is a pity, but I don't see Irish schools as much hope as some do. Irish universities yes, but they're a pipe dream at this stage.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »
    and 2: Because Irish is compulsory, a.k.a forced on kids, they develop resentment towards the language and wish it to burn in a hole, driving them away from future usage of Irish. If something's forced on you, like Irish, then you'll learn to hate it. Plain & simple. A slave for example, wouldn't ever dream about going back to do the activity that was forced upon him.


    Ah, this old chessnut eh?

    So the argument is that kids will inevitably learn to resent and even hate something that is compulsory, and will endevour to avoid it as soon as they have the freedom to do so? Would that be a fair description of your position?

    If the theory is true, then it surely must be true in all cases, unfortunatly for you, even a very quick look at reality shows it is not true.

    1) Not everyone resents Irish, infact there is very little evidence to show a significent ammount of people have any problem with Irish, hence the invariably positive poll results whenever people are questioned on their attiude to the language, and the abject lack of any oppisition to it save perhaps a few posters on discussion fourms and the odd hack in the sindo.
    2) It does not hold true for other subjects, Maths is Compulsory from day one in Primary school to the LC yet I don't believe there are many who resent arethmitic because they were 'forced to do it', same with English, if someone claimed they wanted to burn English in a hole, I think it would be ascribed to some form of nationalistic insanity than a justifiable reaction to compulsion in school.


    If compulsion leads students to hate the subject they are required to study, then why is compulsion still part of our, and every other edcuation system?
    Please answer this question.


    Logic would seem to suggest that compulsion does not inevitably lead to resentment/hatred. Plain and simple.;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    Wibbs wrote: »
    This is a large part of it. Observe both Terry Wogan and Stephen Fry in their respective programmes asking kids, Irish speaking kids what language they texted and tweeted in. It wasn't Irish. Hell a while back when some were tweeting about this very site and how it was "anti Irish language" the vast majority were tweeting in? You guessed it. English.

    I would personally reckon a language reaches a point where it dips below a certain level and at that point it's on life support. Trite as that phrase is. It becomes a minority and/or hobby horse and/or political language. It may survive, even go up for a time, but the environment it lives in, the environment of everyday communication has changed. It becomes the rare parrot in the zoo and safari park, extinct in the wild. Irish has not(thankfully) gotten to the stage of the last parrot in the zoo, but it's environment is shrinking and has been for at least two centuries. It is a pity, but I don't see Irish schools as much hope as some do. Irish universities yes, but they're a pipe dream at this stage.

    The language doesn't have to be on the life support that it is now. Many people have mentioned earlier that if it was removed as a compulsory subject and not forced on students, then the ones who liked learning it would still choose it, and maybe even more students who didn't like learning it might just decide to give it another chance. But it's method of teaching also needs to be changed for that to happen - it's an extremely dull subject, although I hate to say it. Having it as a compulsory subject was a bad idea from the start. I believe there's no one to blame for the language's decline other than our previous government's and politicans - it was their idea to make it compulsory, which in my opinion was among the top causes of it's decline over the last 90 years in the first place - no one likes anything being forced upon them, not even their own language.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »
    The language doesn't have to be on the life support that it is now. Many people have mentioned earlier that if it was removed as a compulsory subject and not forced on students, then the ones who liked learning it would still choose it, and maybe even more students who didn't like learning it might just decide to give it another chance. But it's method of teaching also needs to be changed for that to happen - it's an extremely dull subject, although I hate to say it. Having it as a compulsory subject was a bad idea from the start. I believe there's no one to blame for the language's decline other than our previous government's and politicans - it was their idea to make it compulsory, which in my opinion was the top cause of it's decline in the first place - no one likes anything being forced upon them, not even their own language.


    Wait, you think Irish declined in the first place because it was made compulsory?:D
    Boy won't you be surprised when you finally get round to opening a history book.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    Ah, this old chessnut eh?

    So the argument is that kids will inevitably learn to resent and even hate something that is compulsory, and will endevour to avoid it as soon as they have the freedom to do so? Would that be a fair description of your position?
    But that's what's happening. Irish as compulsory subject is an example.
    If the theory is true, then it surely must be true in all cases, unfortunatly for you, even a very quick look at reality shows it is not true.
    1) Not everyone resents Irish, infact there is very little evidence to show a significent ammount of people have any problem with Irish, hence the invariably positive poll results whenever people are questioned on their attiude to the language, and the abject lack of any oppisition to it save perhaps a few posters on discussion fourms and the odd hack in the sindo.
    2) It does not hold true for other subjects, Maths is Compulsory from day one in Primary school to the LC yet I don't believe there are many who resent arethmitic because they were 'forced to do it', same with English, if someone claimed they wanted to burn English in a hole, I think it would be ascribed to some form of nationalistic insanity than a justifiable reaction to compulsion in school.

    Not everyone resents Irish, I never said that. But if kids are forced to learn it, then most will, especially if they're forced to learn something wich is of no benefit to them. Kids have personalities and interests just like any other human being, and like any one of us, they hate having something forced down their throats. Speaking Irish out of your own interest and own free will is one thing, but it's another thing being forced to speak it by somebody else who thinks it's important to you. Look back through the thread - a fair amount of people do have a problem with Irish being compulsory. I'm not the only one.

    Maths and English are different - they need to be compulsory, or you'd get nowhere in life. They are both useful, and will come into almost any job you go into at some stage. Therefore you'll need them. Irish will never be needed, unless Irish is specifically relevant to the job, which are few and far between. It's compulsory just for the sheer hell of it, no matter how many students are or aren't benefitting from it.
    If compulsion leads students to hate the subject they are required to study, then why is compulsion still part of our, and every other edcuation system?
    Please answer this question.

    Some subjects need to be compulsory, like I said earlier. The education system doesn't care whether or not we hate a certain subject or not. It's just the way it is unfortunately. Students have little to no say in how it's run.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,027 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I presume he means since the start of the Irish state. Clearly it was on the decline way before that point, compulsion and the new cultural pressures certainly didn't help.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    i would love if i knew the irish language better , it should be compulsory
    If you want to learn Irish by all means go ahead. I'd tell you the exact same if you wanted to learn Ancient Greek, Latin or any other language. They're interesting languages but when I have limited time, I want to pick the most useful subjects available to me.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    Wait, you think Irish declined in the first place because it was made compulsory?:D
    Boy won't you be surprised when you finally get round to opening a history book.

    Well if it wasn't the top cause of it declining then it certainly was and still is a contributor. (Forgetting the other factors like emigration, the Great Famine...) And compulsion definitley is a contributor, no point denying it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »
    Well if it wasn't the top cause of it declining then it certainly was and still is a contributor. (Forgetting the other factors like emigration, the Great Famine...) And compulsion definitley is a contributor, no point denying it.


    No point in denying it eh?
    Well as you are the one proposing that compulsion was and definitley is still a contributor to the decline of Irish, the onus is on you to back it up.

    Now you claim that compulsory Irish makes most kids resent Irish, as previously stated, I don't see any evidence for that, so perhaps you could show me some.
    Is that the only reason you think it is definitley a contributor to the decline of Irish or are there others?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »

    As I said, there is very little evidence to actually back that claim up. I have seen nothing that would suggest that most kids resent Irish.
    Perhaps you have, if so, Link?

    Sorry, maybe not most hate it, but many do. First of all, look back through this thread, other threads: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054942478, there's a good few more, and look through the internet. I've asked friends (and kids) before what they think of it - most have appreciated the whole culture and heritage aspect of it but still don't see that as a large enough reason to justify it being compulsory. A lot of Irish people, not just kids, do or did resent being force-fed Irish, although it's mainly adult opinions shown, not kid's.


  • Registered Users Posts: 314 ✭✭Dammo


    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Einstein. (Apologies if that's been used before, I confess I haven't read the entire thread - is cúis náire dom).

    A radical overhaul of the approach to its teaching is badly needed before addressing the question as to whether it should be compulsory or option (i'm thuairim féin).

    Slán.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,876 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Dammo wrote: »
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Einstein. (Apologies if that's been used before, I confess I haven't read the entire thread - is cúis náire dom).

    A radical overhaul of the approach to its teaching is badly needed before addressing the question as to whether it should be compulsory or option (i'm thuairim féin).

    Slán.

    So until then, force people to do somethign you admit is not taught very well....?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »

    Sorry, maybe not most hate it, but many do. First of all, look back through this thread, other threads: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054942478, there's a good few more, and look through the internet. I've asked friends (and kids) before what they think of it - most have appreciated the whole culture and heritage aspect of it but still don't see that as a large enough reason to justify it being compulsory. A lot of Irish people, not just kids, do or did resent being force-fed Irish, although it's mainly adult opinions shown, not kid's.


    Bit of backpeddeling going on here, went from being presented as an inevitable conclusion that people would hate it, to being true of most people, then not most but many, but thats only supported by a few threads on Boards and your freinds, most of whom by your own admission seem not to hate it at all.
    And I have looked through the internet, aside from one hilariousley biased blog and a one or two disturbingly poorly thought out arguments on youtube, there doesnt seem to be much, certainly nothing in comparrision to the pro Irish side, though again, I may have missed something, if so link?

    So where does that leave the original theory that ''If something's forced on you, like Irish, then you'll learn to hate it. Plain & simple''


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,876 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock



    So where does that leave the original theory that ''If something's forced on you, like Irish, then you'll learn to hate it. Plain & simple''

    If something is forced on you continuously, after you're shown a dislike for it, you're going to learn to hate it.

    That's just common sense...

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 387 ✭✭gimme5minutes


    Irish is an utter pain in the hole. Why force people to do a non-essential subject that they dont want to do? And if you are going to force them to do a subject at least make it something like physics which has a huge amount of applications in the real world. Not some language that has been effectively dead for 150 years and that has no meaning to us bar some people living on this island 150 years ago used to speak it.

    Someone pointed this out earlier in the thread - english is our langage, it was our parents language, our grandparents language, our great-grandparents language...and on and on. That is the case for 95%+ of the population. So Irish is not our language, English is. I dont care what the constitution says, that's another outdated piece of sh*te..., isnt that the same constitution that gave a 'special place' to the Catholic Church in Ireland, that worked out well didn't it...

    Irish is a cultural relic, boo hoo, we are multiple generations down the line from this occurred in the 19th century so people don't give a toss about it now, everyone is happy speaking English. So so stupid forcing students to spend time totalling hundreds of hours over the course of their schooling learning this pointless language that has absolutely no use in the real world, other than as a means to make a few handy quid for the Irish language vested interests. I wouldn't expect anything less from our spineless useless politicians, not one set of balls between the lot of them. My grandparents spoke english as did their parents, etc...so English is the language that has far more cultural significance to us now and has had for many decades.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    No point in denying it eh?
    Well as you are the one proposing that compulsion was and definitley is still a contributor to the decline of Irish, the onus is on you to back it up.

    Now you claim that compulsory Irish makes most kids resent Irish, as previously stated, I don't see any evidence for that, so perhaps you could show me some.
    Is that the only reason you think it is definitley a contributor to the decline of Irish or are there others?

    Look around the thread - am I the only one proposing that? It's a problem that pretty everyone in Ireland would know about which is Irish's needless compulsion, and also it's effects. You do seem to be saying otherwise even though you probably know it's true...so yep, no point in denying it.

    And I said earlier that it definitley is a contributor to it's decline since the foundation of the state, but I never said it was it was fully to blame. In recent decades, yes it is a contributor. It definitley is - there's been countless debates about it's compulsion issues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    Countless debates, no change.

    If it was up for referendum in 6 months time I would put a bet on in the bookies on it remaining compulsory and you would be crazy to bet against it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,876 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Countless debates, no change. If it was up for referendum in 6 months time I would put a bet on in the bookies on it remaining compulsory and you would be crazy to bet against it.

    1 - The first four words express the problem perfectly.
    2 - Therein lies the problem you have failed to see again: you assume that the majority will always make the best, most informed deicsion.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 512 ✭✭✭GaryIrv93


    Bit of backpeddeling going on here, went from being presented as an inevitable conclusion that people would hate it, to being true of most people, then not most but many, but thats only supported by a few threads on Boards and your freinds, most of whom by your own admission seem not to hate it at all.
    And I have looked through the internet, aside from one hilariousley biased blog and a one or two disturbingly poorly thought out arguments on youtube, there doesnt seem to be much, certainly nothing in comparrision to the pro Irish side, though again, I may have missed something, if so link?

    So where does that leave the original theory that ''If something's forced on you, like Irish, then you'll learn to hate it. Plain & simple''

    I wouldn't say I need to link - this thread has well over 60 pages - all full of different opinions from people who think it should be compulsory, who think it shouldn't to people who say they downright hate it. Have your own opinion but don't try to start a massive debate or argument, just in case you're heading in that direction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    The best decision is not a fact, it is an opinion.

    It is my opinion (this time it is also the opinion of the majority) that Irish should remain compulsory.

    Compulsory or optional, neither are definitely better than the other so neither are "best". "most informed" would be based on your general outlook on life and education so neither is obviously the better choice.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    GaryIrv93 wrote: »
    Look around the thread - am I the only one proposing that? It's a problem that pretty everyone in Ireland would know about which is Irish's needless compulsion, and also it's effects. You do seem to be saying otherwise even though you probably know it's true...so yep, no point in denying it.

    And I said earlier that it definitley is a contributor to it's decline since the foundation of the state, but I never said it was it was fully to blame. In recent decades, yes it is a contributor. It definitley is - there's been countless debates about it's compulsion issues.

    To be honnest this is just saying 'I'm right because I am and you know it'

    You said that compulsion is definitley a contributor to the decline of Irish since the foundation of the state, but you have not shown it, you have not supported your argument at all.
    I could say the moon was made of cheese if I wanted to. And say there is no point in denying it. I could point to references to it in countless published works. Would that make for a solid argument?

    You have claimed that there is widespread resentment/hatred of the Irish Language and that compulsion is a causal factor in this, you have not shown either to be true in reality, saying there is no point denying it without supporting your argument is nonsense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Ikky Poo2 wrote: »
    you assume that the majority will always make the best, most informed deicsion.


    You're the one that wants to give them more choices to make:pac:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,876 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    You're the one that wants to give them more choices to make:pac:

    I'm the one who wants to give people a choice regarding their own lives.
    You're the one who wants to give poeple a choice regarding other people's lives.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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